09:06:05 <m-relay> <r​ottenwheel:unredacted.org> Makes scenes!
15:16:46 <plowsof> meeting in 44 mins https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1130
16:00:18 <plowsof> meeting time https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1130
16:00:23 <plowsof> greetings !
16:00:34 <m-relay> <m​ichael:monero.social> Hello.
16:01:07 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> Hey.
16:01:08 <sneurlax> gmorning
16:01:10 <plowsof> update on Ruckniums wownero discovery: https://monero.observer/rucknium-discovers-critical-privacy-vulnerability-wownero-decoy-selection-algorithm/
16:01:20 <m-relay> <a​lexanarcho:matrix.org> ✌️ hi
16:01:49 <ofrnxmr> and Jeffro256 fixed it
16:02:45 <plowsof> a 15k wownero reward from wowneros ceo/general fund was sent to Rucknium via https://rucknium.me/donate/
16:03:26 <plowsof> an amount was also sent to Jeffro256 but im not sure if it where publicly disclosed somewhere 💪
16:04:45 <plowsof> ofrnxmr was the only person who contacted me to update my wownero nodes 
16:05:20 <plowsof> (rottenwheel also mentioned it later) , just thought id thank them 
16:06:23 <plowsof> i have to complete a survey today: [HackerSpace survey](https://cryptpad.disroot.org/form/#/2/form/view/k+F96VAcT8cSCpJ8nq2Sq8kVK67M7N7EWRw2sY+Qvok/embed/)
16:07:48 <ofrnxmr> Fwiw i dont think hackerspace is decided yet / is still being decided whether there will be one or not
16:08:41 <plowsof> a hackerspace could also encourage (or let patreons see fun stuff)  like (monero payments on an off-the-shelf point of sale device) [Bounty: FOSS point of sale app](https://bounties.monero.social/posts/159/10-735m-foss-monero-point-of-sale-android-app) : Progress video: [xcancel](https://xcancel.com/MoneroKon/status/1869794622450610633) 
16:09:23 <plowsof> depends how the hackerspace is defined (note:i need to read/complete the survey to find out :D )
16:11:34 <plowsof> a new bounty to get Featherwallet on Macs : https://bounties.monero.social/posts/167/15-000m-apple-developer-id-certificate-and-notarization-for-feather-wallet 
16:11:42 <ofrnxmr> That POS looks good (video on the tweet link)
16:13:46 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> Looks like Czarek Nakamoto is already on it.
16:13:52 <ofrnxmr> Feather's might be in progress, we'll know soon #feather
16:14:19 <plowsof> yep, sounds like it wont be long 👏
16:14:30 <tobtoht_> couple days :)
16:14:48 <ofrnxmr> gate.io delisting xmr leveraged tokens and xmr perpetual futures 
16:17:16 <plowsof> xmr remains still? i've never used gate io (only seen the support threads of people complaining about their customer service)
16:18:33 <plowsof> also never messed with leverage 😟
16:18:41 <plowsof> News: [Monero Observer](https://www.monero.observer/) - [Revuo Monero](https://revuo-xmr.com/) - [MoneroMoon issue 75](https://www.themoneromoon.com/p/the-monero-moon-issue-75) 
16:18:57 <ofrnxmr> Gate has #1 xmr volume (allegedly) 
16:19:05 <plowsof> nioCat wishes everyone a happy winter solstice 
16:20:03 <plowsof> did they list haven by any chance, wonder what volume they had for that 😅
16:20:54 <plowsof> https://www.gate.io/price/haven-xhv 
16:22:31 <plowsof> we can move on to the ccs ideas if nothing else comes up
16:24:13 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> Haven is still a thing? I think even Cake is removing it from their app.
16:24:27 <ofrnxmr> Cske removed it a long time ago iirc?
16:24:44 <ofrnxmr> Haven was exploited. Another inflation bug
16:24:57 <plowsof> officially dead yes 
16:25:13 <ofrnxmr> Yeah, project announced that they were handing it up
16:25:19 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> Oh maybe for new wallets. Its still included in build process (for now).
16:25:44 <m-relay> <a​lexanarcho:matrix.org> Damn
16:25:58 <ofrnxmr> Hanging*.  kaya said "They didn't call verBulletproofPlus. That was the issue."
16:26:04 <plowsof> wallet users that previously had haven , need to access their funds still.. so figure that one out 
16:26:54 <plowsof> makes sense, disable for creating new wallets, but keep it in there 
16:27:22 <m-relay> <y​osef33:matrix.org> ""They didn't call verBulletproofPlus." --- put politly.
16:27:34 <plowsof> ok lets the ccs ideas 
16:27:38 <plowsof>   b. [XMRChat - a service for content creators to receive messages and tips in Monero.](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/524)    
16:28:18 <plowsof> TipXMR has officially handed the torch over to XMRChat 
16:28:18 <ofrnxmr> For ppl who watch monerotopia episodes, youve probably seen xmrchat in action
16:29:49 <plowsof> one thing to note regarding the WASM milestone : convoluted / increasing the difficulty of the entire project . accouting for 48% of the funds - and undoubtedly playing a role in the delays and ultimate demise of TipXMR
16:30:02 <ofrnxmr> I dont see the 2 projects as "the same thing". Xmrchat is imo an evolution of tipxmr. utilizes lws instead of tipxmr's proposed wasm  
16:30:12 <plowsof> if they had set out to not attempt to have a WASM wallet - the project would be alot simpler 
16:30:15 <m-relay> <a​lexanarcho:matrix.org> Yep, we won't continue on tipxmr, glad that xmrchat is coming along so nicely and we don't want to hog CCS funds that won't be used. So the proposed solution seems ideal
16:30:58 <m-relay> <a​lexanarcho:matrix.org> In terms of technical implementation they are not the same, but in terms of utility for the streamer they are more or less interchangeable
16:31:57 <plowsof> alexanarcho - you have completed milestone 1 btw but did not yet claim it 😅
16:32:06 <m-relay> <a​lexanarcho:matrix.org> Yes, I agree with plowsof, xmrchat is simpler for development and using a client side wasm wallet doesn't give that big of an advantage
16:32:40 <m-relay> <a​lexanarcho:matrix.org> We did claim milestone 1 but the CCS was never updated. If there is anything I should do there pls let me know
16:33:01 <ofrnxmr> I think snex (banned) has tried xmrchat before. We need some streamers to give the self hosted versions a test run
16:33:19 <plowsof> a payout address (to receive the 1.x xmr under the proposal alex, thank you)
16:33:49 <m-relay> <a​lexanarcho:matrix.org> We already received the 1 xmr for the first milestone by luigi1111
16:34:00 <plowsof> one thing i question is: does there need to be a server where a fee model exists? 
16:34:11 <plowsof> ah alex, thank you, will make sure that is updated 
16:34:37 <plowsof> webContainers came 1 year after tipxmr was proposed on the ccs https://blog.stackblitz.com/posts/introducing-webcontainers/ 
16:35:32 <plowsof> just food for thought. theoretically a streamer can run everything in a tab window (monero wallet.. server and all) with the aid of a proxy to obscure their home IP - donors can connect and request subaddresses 
16:35:40 <ofrnxmr> I think: xmrchat should be self hostable both for yourself and for others (so the hosted version is able to be hosted by anyone). Also that the fee should be able to be, ideally, scraped directly snd set per instance (not a donation freemium model)
16:35:49 <plowsof> but now: can focus on a server where a fee model is in place 
16:36:35 <plowsof> confirming source is open/works is indeed a priority after Haveno api/gui issues 
16:36:41 <m-relay> <a​lexanarcho:matrix.org> There is also shadowchat by Luke Smith that is self hostable. The goal for tipxmr originally was to target streamers that don't want to do that command line thing and just use the trusted ol browser.
16:37:18 <ofrnxmr> i dont think a hosted-only version fits the ethos of ccs
16:37:28 <ofrnxmr> It should be a public good
16:38:53 <plowsof> if xmrchat considers itself as not being a charity, then perhaps they can repay any funds awarded 
16:38:56 <ofrnxmr> Users should be able to 1. Self host: no fees. 2. Self Host freemium: able to set a donation model 3. Hosted fee model: able to scrape a direct fee. 4. Use someone elses 2 or 3 
16:39:57 <plowsof> as doug says "can't just be charity cases right, we need these tools to be self sufficient, they need to be earning money""
16:40:45 <plowsof> but have it on good authority that xmrchat and tipxmr are interchangeable (in the roles they serve) thanks for confirming alex 
16:40:51 <ofrnxmr> xmrchat.monerokon.org for example, would allow monerokon to host their own instance. Xmrchat.com would allow anyone to use their instance xmrchat.xmr.ru would allow scraping fees for xmr.ru 
16:41:18 <plowsof> that would be a "worst case scenario" ofrnxmr , competition 
16:41:31 <ofrnxmr> competition is best case scenario
16:41:45 <plowsof> but how can my instance be profitable?
16:42:01 <ofrnxmr> Its not competition, its business. Xmrchat.coms official instance wouldnt want to host the types of streams that i want to host, if you get my drift 
16:42:02 <plowsof> i need the big streamers to use my service 
16:43:06 <ofrnxmr> And i'm not hosting for other ppl for free. Xmrchat official can host their PG-13 streams and follow sanctions etc
16:43:37 <ofrnxmr> I'll host my rated M streams from my sanctioned country
16:45:09 <ofrnxmr> It should be a public good. No requirement to use xmrchat's official instance vs self host. You should be able to use any instance, run a hosted instance, or self host. My 2c
16:45:21 <plowsof> so confirming its open source / works.... i don't support funding the fee models via crowd funding for a tool that the people who created it don't see it as being a charity (unless the monero community (tm) is handed the license)
16:45:41 <ofrnxmr> thats my point
16:45:57 <ofrnxmr> If the hosted instance is something that anyone can host, then theres no issue
16:45:59 <plowsof> licesne holders can change licenses if my understanding is correctly. 
16:47:08 <plowsof> in the meantime i will make a merge request to repurpose the FULL amount of tipxmr or PART?
16:47:42 <plowsof> can discuss that in detail when its made and move on?
16:48:33 <ofrnxmr> i think full, but requiring proper testing for payouts
16:48:56 <ofrnxmr> Snex had some issues getting it working iirc
16:49:12 <plowsof> ok, lets move on for now
16:49:14 <plowsof>   c. [NoShore: Groundwork for on-the-go offline payments](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/525)    
16:49:50 <ofrnxmr> This ccs confused me ^. I think it takes spme inspiration from the gift card poc
16:50:01 <plowsof> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/525#who
16:51:21 <plowsof> 5 years of entering text into dns entries and some shell scripts on the gitlab may need more clarification as to where they fit into proving competency for this task. or is this a research task to see if its possible? 
16:51:56 <ofrnxmr> This is something i think needs show and tell
16:52:06 <plowsof> sech1 was interested in this and spoke with the proposer about their ideas 
16:52:21 <m-relay> <s​pirobel:kernal.eu> is there a tldr on how one could trust the offline payments outputs were not double spent?
16:52:52 <plowsof> the merchant needs a blockchain they trust somewhere
16:56:49 <plowsof> condense proposal, get people excited about it
16:56:57 <plowsof> moving on?
16:57:40 <plowsof>   d. [0xfffc 3 months full-time dev.](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/526)    
16:57:50 <tobtoht_> +1 from me
16:58:04 <ofrnxmr> +1
16:58:30 <plowsof> boog900 , jeffro256, selsta named in the proposal 
16:58:58 <plowsof> thanks for feedback
16:59:19 <m-relay> <0​xfffc:monero.social> ( just a extra context. Those are named in the context of tasks I have on my todo list )
16:59:20 <plowsof> looks like as feedback comes in, merging
16:59:25 <plowsof> moving on?
16:59:49 <m-relay> <0​xfffc:monero.social> Thanks everyone, I hope I will be productive member of dev team. It is my honour.
17:00:07 <plowsof>   e. [j-berman full-time development (4 months)](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/527)    
17:00:29 <tobtoht_> +1 i'm ok with 4 month proposals for long-term devs
17:01:04 <ofrnxmr> +1 to longer terms as well
17:01:16 <m-relay> <0​xfffc:monero.social> ( minor extra context. Ccs will start after holiday )
17:01:26 <plowsof> thanks for feedback, looks mergable with the feedback as is 
17:01:27 <plowsof> moving on?
17:02:01 <ofrnxmr> Yea
17:02:09 <plowsof> of course a more detailed comment from devs working closely with them is always welcome xD 
17:02:27 <plowsof>   f. [tobtoht full-time feather + core development (3 months)](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/529)    
17:02:35 <plowsof> Featherwallet.org 
17:02:48 <ofrnxmr> 0xfffc has helped me with (fixed) numerous wallet-rpc issues and improvements 
17:02:50 <m-relay> <0​xfffc:monero.social> Definitely a +1. Merge
17:02:54 <ofrnxmr> +1 tob
17:03:59 <ofrnxmr> (plowsof asking for direct commentary). There are 70+ commits in the dev merge queue, so personally ive slowed down testing because its too much for me to keep track of 
17:04:13 <m-relay> <y​osef33:matrix.org> is offline signing really needed in this context ? When trying to onboard new users?
17:04:24 <plowsof> thanks ofrnxmr
17:04:45 <ofrnxmr> 70+ prs**
17:05:02 <plowsof> merge the tobtoht !
17:05:26 <ofrnxmr> Of course. 
17:06:30 <tobtoht_> thanks all :)
17:07:19 <plowsof> we're at the end of the impromptu-ish winter solstice meeting 
17:07:33 <ofrnxmr> No were not! 
17:07:40 <ofrnxmr> We need another 30mins to talk about qtip
17:07:45 <tobtoht_> but wait there's more
17:07:46 <plowsof> people are syncing monero blockchains on cuprate daemons 
17:08:20 <m-relay> <m​ichael:monero.social> Thanks for the good meeting and good moderation plowsof @plowsof:libera.chat: .
17:08:29 <ofrnxmr> We voted 2 weeks ago to close kewbits ccs - whats the status with that?
17:09:44 <plowsof> only updates from the CCS backend on qtip are waiting for expert witnesses to review the work (retroactive for the API payout) and current status 
17:10:23 <ofrnxmr> at the time of vote, the code didnt work and he was acting in bad faith in numerous capacities. its been 2 weeks and (afaict) the code still doesnt work and it was just a few hours ago that he was impersonating me 🤔
17:11:35 <plowsof> there has been a commit to aloha's github repo - but this could be explained off by saying they where given access to help? (considering it's the only public network listed on haveno dot com) 
17:12:00 <ofrnxmr> he didnt help. The new pushes on aloha repo are broken as well
17:12:04 <plowsof> public opinion will not believe such an excuse if one was even made 
17:12:33 <ofrnxmr> Broken even worse, as the merge commit prevents them from rebasing now
17:12:35 <m-relay> <m​alori:xavi.lu> pretty cool!
17:13:19 <ofrnxmr> Anyway, i don't like that were 2 weeks post-vote and still giving bad actors time to hire fiverr devs to finish the job so he can collect more funds to attack the ecosystem with
17:14:34 <plowsof> so you would support the reviews performed on source/repo's frozen at a given commit hash dated some time ago?
17:14:56 <plowsof> which is common practice for any reviews 
17:14:57 <ofrnxmr> He deleted the repo, but i have a copy
17:15:40 <plowsof> the CCS has scammed him, word on the grapevine is work has ceased. hopefully kewbit can confirm 
17:15:57 <ofrnxmr> But no, i wouldnt support any further dealings with him. Would i support a review of the code? Sure. But not continuing his proposal(s)
17:16:55 <ofrnxmr> He scammed the ccs and blatantly tried to scam it right before the meeting. He pushed a different codebase AFTER we voted against him
17:18:06 <ofrnxmr> https://librejo.monerodevs.org/nahuhh/haveno-app/compare/manymen...main
17:18:41 <ofrnxmr> Can see the diffs here between what he tried to get paid for vs what he pushed after we rejected 
17:20:33 <ofrnxmr> Thanks for the extra 20mins 
17:21:56 <m-relay> <s​yntheticbird:monero.social> you welcome
17:22:01 <m-relay> <s​yntheticbird:monero.social> always a pleasure to give time to people
17:22:11 <plowsof> I am still considering all options before i make a decisive decision for research-milestone-gate https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/528#note_27774 
17:22:34 <plowsof> i've phone a friend. used 50/50. i could ask the audience
17:23:13 <plowsof> thank you for all attending the cosy meeting 
17:23:32 <m-relay> <s​pirobel:kernal.eu> thanks
17:24:00 <m-relay> <s​pirobel:kernal.eu> we can feel the christmas vibes
17:24:25 <m-relay> <a​js_:matrix.org> Final plug for the hackerspace idea survey- https://s.42l.fr/XMRhackerspace
17:24:33 <ofrnxmr> I wrote a response but never hit send
17:25:17 <m-relay> <a​js_:matrix.org> Nothing has been decided, gauging interest
17:25:50 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Since nobody asked me, i feel obligated to butt in and leave my 15c.
17:25:51 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Milestones are intended to be updated every time a payment is made. Its not luigi's job to use a napkin to keep track of payments. His responsibility is to publicly track payments he's made. Updating the milestones is the default way to do so.
17:25:53 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Usually a milestone would match a payment. This ccs is an exception, where there are payouts that don't necessarily complete the milestones.
17:25:55 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> TLDR: this is accounting.
17:25:57 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> either:
17:25:59 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> a) cleanest: as payments are made, luigi, plowsof, or kaya can create milestones to match payments
17:26:01 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> b) other: leave comments detailing how much was paid out and which milestone it goes towards, as well as notifying when a milestone was completed. Once completed, the commented amounts can then be tallied up, and the associated milestone marked as paid and completed
17:26:03 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> tldr again: accounting
17:26:05 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> translation: its probably better to track payouts in realtime, where to, and towards what milestone. As soon as luigi touches the wallet, its typically supposed to be logged in a merge req
17:26:38 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> surprisingly, it was still saved in my browser
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18:13:09 <m-relay> <j​oin666:matrix.org> https://t.me/+d05BtSbvDf4wNTc0
18:13:11 <m-relay> <j​oin666:matrix.org> https://t.me/+d05BtSbvDf4wNTc0
18:13:13 <m-relay> <j​oin666:matrix.org> Bitcoin transfer sweet
18:13:15 <m-relay> <j​oin666:matrix.org> Clone card /cashapp transfer ❗
18:13:17 <m-relay> <j​oin666:matrix.org> PayPal/ Apple Pay ❗
18:13:19 <m-relay> <j​oin666:matrix.org> Linkable cc❗️
18:13:21 <m-relay> <j​oin666:matrix.org> Boost Credit Score❗
18:27:49 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> poew
18:28:01 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> pew
19:20:30 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> Need to wait so we can fudge the numbers
19:21:46 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> Creative accounting 😏
19:28:46 <m-relay> <j​effro256:monero.social> Plowsof: I haven't received any wownero for that fix as I haven't set up a wallet yet. Also, I'm not sure what the amount would be
19:29:06 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 1 wow
19:29:25 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Declare on taxes ser
19:29:33 <m-relay> <j​effro256:monero.social> I'm rich!
19:30:24 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Can you check this for me ... 1 sec
19:31:15 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> https://codeberg.org/wownero/wownero/pulls/495
19:35:01 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> Baller
19:35:18 <m-relay> <r​ottenwheel:unredacted.org> I asked you for an address like 3 weeks ago! 😂😉
19:37:22 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> add it to the offline yellow pages https://yellow.wownero.com/
19:39:11 <m-relay> <s​yntheticbird:monero.social> r/linkifellfor
19:39:51 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> its real but offline atm
19:41:53 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> But what is real
19:42:02 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> Who is real
19:42:10 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> Where is real
19:42:43 <m-relay> <s​yntheticbird:monero.social> \* Existential crisis begins \*
19:48:39 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> Why would you payout and then chase them out of town ?
19:58:23 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Nvm, cleaner fix here https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/9621