08:47:41 <4rkal:monero.social> Quick question. Would it make sense/is it possible to sync a Monero node initially with cuprated and then switch to monerod? Since cuprated is apparently a lot faster at the initial sync 09:09:40 I am pretty sure the database formats are not compatible; monerod won't be able to use the blockchain file that cuprate wrote 12:26:14 meeting today in 3 hours 34 mins https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1169 13:33:02 Why is there such a long delay between funded CCS milestone completion and payout? That part of the process should be improved. 13:34:51 agreed 13:35:12 what do you think the average time between those 2 steps is currently? 13:40:18 Mine milestone was done on 1/29. I haven't been following others, but saw someone else comment 4 weeks. 13:40:34 My completes milestone was done on 1/29. I haven't been following others, but saw someone else comment 4 weeks. 13:40:44 My completed milestone was done on 1/29. I haven't been following others, but saw someone else comment 4 weeks. 13:41:31 Luigi does this on his own time 13:41:42 Usually 1-2 weeks but occasionally over 4 weeks 13:42:01 I think he may have forgotten you 13:42:37 Can Luigi get an assistant that can help when he is unavailable? 13:43:03 Since it mikestones are usually paid when marked as completed at the time of payout, possible he thought it was paid 13:44:18 Since it mikestones are usually marked as completed at the time of payout*, possible he thought it was paid 13:59:17 Re: assistant, doesn't plowsof do that? 14:04:10 Plowsof isnt his assistant. Payouts are a 1 man band 14:04:37 Or perhaps better 14:05:18 Share it during the meeting 14:05:52 (if youre available) 14:11:12 should be multisig 14:22:43 FiatDemise payments will happen no sooner than Monday, ETA on availability for payouts will happen after Monday. thank you for your patience 14:23:56 ofrnxmr " possible he thought it was paid" 1st provocation of the day 14:26:08 Hahaha 14:26:24 2nd 😠 15:43:22 Hi guys, in case I will not attend the meeting 😞 ⤵️ 15:43:24 1. btcpayserver plugin: we need to find place to host this repo. I vote for ofrnxmr 🫡. Proposal should be merge in my opinion.✅ 15:43:26 2.Monerokom: ✅ merge 15:43:28 3. Montero browser wallet. I like the idea of flow payment like stripe payment links but I'm very skeptical of the security for a browser wallet. Also, why just not use Btcpayserver for commercial things and if you want a wallet go for desktop or mobile wallet. Browser wallet are not secured INMO 15:43:30 4. Monfluo - I support this proposal. 14 XMR it's ok ✅ 15:43:32 5. Revuo ✅ I think the price is ok for the proposal 15:43:34 6. Coordinator... Mmmm 🤔 I don't know I don't know... Joking 😃. I'm vote merge ✅ nice work for all this time 15:43:36 7. Selsta merge ✅ 15:43:38 For the rest of proposals I don't have any comments. 15:48:34 thanks for the feedback Lovera 💪 15:51:38 Appreciate the support lovera! 16:00:06 Meeting time https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1169 16:00:56 cuprated alpha released, i see alot of people syncing their nodes https://github.com/Cuprate/cuprate/releases 16:00:58 greetz 16:01:11 ofrnxmr and gingeropolous are in the trenches syncing monerod release 16:01:43 hey 16:01:55 ajs_ how was the meetup? (Prague 14th March https://lu.ma/urs3seku) 16:02:15 anyone here in attendance by any chance? 😅 16:02:24 I also successfully synced a release-v18 node, currently testing gitian 16:02:44 thank you ! 16:02:58 about 14~ hrs left myself , getting there 16:03:11 3. can you please read the proposal in detail. The blanket "browser wallet insecure" was addressed in the first reply, there is also the issue of leaking information through scanning QR codes while using the TOR browser. The btc payserver is maybe okay for people with BTC in the name like BTC lovera, but there is a need for monero to have its own payment gateways. There is the ben 16:03:12 efit of adding lws like multi wallet scanning to the wallet library as part of the first milestone that contains the payment processor. 16:03:56 if you want to gain a deeper understanding beyond the typical "browser wallet le insecure" I am happy to talk. 16:04:16 if there are no other highlights to discuss i would like to pass things on to blessed_mind for 2~3 mins to hold a vote 16:05:50 does not seem to be here. if anyone would like to vote/discuss vote yes/no please do: 16:05:53 Vote requested by blessed_mind "new CCS rule: [must] Clarify the ownership of the project you are getting funded for" 16:07:14 Ownership as in license, or as in who will do the work? I'm out of the loop 16:07:41 the example in play is cuprate 16:07:46 yeah if blessed_mind could put a gist somewhere to link to so people can get an idea 16:08:01 Ownership as in name on the GitHub org 16:08:05 it's completely stupid 16:08:07 BusyBoredom: blessed_m1nd was unhappy to learn that I was owning Cuprate repository. He explained ownership as project ownership 16:08:17 Blessed believes that syntheticbird or boog "own" cuprate, when they really just own the repo org 16:08:29 The code is permissive, as is required by rule #4 16:08:51 devils advocate here: so i hate syntheetic bird. i have sent many moneros funding cuprate devs. only now i find out that synthetic bird is an owner of the cuprate organisation 16:09:15 if the whole repo was MIT the whole conversation would go away, wouldnt it? 16:09:25 https://github.com/cuprate (org owners clearly listed) 16:09:51 github.com/cuprate != owning cuprate. Example: does luigi own monero? 16:10:11 the repo is mix MIT & AGPL, AGPL is copyrighted to whoever contributes not the org owners. 16:10:31 devils advocate: but i hate syntheticbird and didnt know he was involved in any ownership 16:10:54 syntheticbird owns librejo.monerodevs.org/monero-project . Does syntheticbird own monero? 16:10:59 Ah OK. As long as we're sticking to permissive licences I don't care much who's repo is being used. 16:11:00 That said, if CCS funds are going to someone who isn't the CCS proposer, or if the CCS proposer is not actually the one doing the work, I would want to know that. 16:11:49 Yeah, this is solely about twisting repo ownership with code ownership. The code is foss, so repo ownership doesnt matter. 16:12:00 If the point is that you just want to spite syn then just say that instead of making pointless rules - this rule wont get rid of syn. 16:12:10 An on-topic for today example is "where to host btcpayserver plugin" 16:12:31 If its hoated on btcpayaerver repo, does that mean btcpayserver owns it? No. 16:12:46 If its hosted on MAGIC, does MAGIC own it? No 16:12:54 Etc. Etc. Etc. 16:12:54 devils advocate: cuprate is going to replace monero org, all mods will be cuprate mods, on every platform associated with monero it will be syntheti bird, i will see him everywhere pulling the strings. they are going to force the entire project to become something else 16:13:01 This is a good example! I don't think we need that rule in the means to know repo ownership 16:13:33 As a compromise, maybe require a link to the repo be in the proposal? 16:13:36 honestly i think a "specify proposer relation (maintainer/contributor) with project" might be good. yet not that needed ngl. this is something that can be put in the "Who am i" section 16:14:09 that people already put* 16:14:14 responses seem sane here, nobody from the side who requested the vote is here to respond. clarify. we have to leave it there i think 16:14:22 I don't think a new rule is necessary 16:14:28 My vote: no 16:14:52 Bro said he was going to be here, and bring 10ppl from twitter. Skipping his hearing is his own fault 16:14:58 No 16:15:16 thanks for feedback, lets move on to another 16:15:20 Vote requested by plowsof [v1docq47: funding resolution](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/issues/153) 16:15:28 plowsof, you have to vote 16:15:47 Boog900 and syn. Vote 16:16:22 i don't vote for irrelevant rules. He insisted on the "clarifying" wording which is vague and ambiguous. 16:16:29 basically, the proposal is not funded. a milestone is already completed https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/517#note_28675 16:17:07 (There are thumbs ups on the matrix side for no new rule) 16:17:16 Oh! So sad that the proposal still not funding. 16:17:26 I would take option 1 16:18:07 Option 3 16:18:33 what are the thoughts of vidocq? 16:19:07 currently : vote no to the rule - per lack of clarification - the responses seem sane suggestions for transparency for donors or people request clarification during ideas stage 16:19:17 personally stick to option 3, but its not for me to decide :) 16:19:24 re v1d, i vote option 4 = payout completed milestones -> leave up for funding -> when milestones are completed w/o funds available then we can look at option 2 (apply funds from overfunding) 16:20:27 option 3 16:21:09 option 3 : 15~xmr bump + immediate WIP and immediate completed milestones 16:21:11 ofrnxmr idea seems good too. 16:21:39 this let more time to gather donations in the meantime 16:22:04 and there is always the over funding bump as a security 16:22:07 Dan 🤐 | alderman (Is not the man & Braxman Tomsparks Qtip USAID Advocate ): voted for option 4 16:22:34 i think we can move on then, new issue open for more feedback 16:22:49 a. [Btcpayserver plugin](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/538) 16:22:50 The happy path, is that its funded by the time the further milestone(s) are claimed 16:23:35 after rereading, didn't realize there were mixed options............. option 4 w/ option 2 16:23:44 nioc and btclovera, the main point of the vote (imo) is whether we can payout the already completed milestones 16:23:50 I think the last status was to wait and they search for alternative funding, right? 16:24:18 i feel sgp (New Account: @sgp_:monero.social) s comment here is an accurate summary of events https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/538#note_29062 16:24:32 i agree with sgp here as well 16:24:47 tldr? 16:24:52 who owns the repo? 16:24:54 sgp has also made a pull request to the official btcpayserver plugin fixing fee calculation https://github.com/btcpayserver/btcpayserver-monero-plugin/pull/1 16:25:36 I'd be happy to respond to some of those critisms. For where the repo is hosted, Napoly and I have setup a new organization to support the development of the btcpay plugin following the handoff from Nicolas. 16:25:51 the repo is currently on btcpayserver repo, but the btcpayserver devs want to hand it over to trusted devs from the monero community 16:26:05 I think the repo can start wherever, but should be branched from the btcpayserver repo and probably housed there too 16:26:35 This allows us to maintain a bit of neutrality and allow for more agile collaboration. 16:26:44 why does monero have to give money to projects with the word btc in the name? 16:27:37 why can we not build our own stuff? 16:27:37 Most of our existing logic we worked on during Monerotopia was boilerplate to get us stood up. Nicolas did us a solid but porting that into the repo so we could have a smooth handoff. I'm not sure this was clear to the community but this has been an ongoing conversation in the btcpay channels. 16:27:58 you can be given maintainer ops of the repo. Theres no good reason imo to fragment the repos. I think it should be forked from btcpayservers, and merged back upstream. 16:29:12 btw, another no for the first topic (the unnecessary new rule) 16:29:19 we asked btcpayserver guys.. but they don't want to host it anymore 16:29:24 We can build our own stuff - that doesn't devalue the importance of BTCPay in the ecosystem. 16:29:32 bitcart.ai will carry us through these dark times 16:29:35 they dont want to host it? Thats not what nocilas said 16:30:15 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/QWryixCBKIRcujBilvMgqHgJ 16:30:27 There is a production grade solution that supports multiple cryptocurrencies. They have pivoted their infrastructure to support plugin based architecture and ensured the payment based logic is available. That means any cryptocurrency gets to leverage all the nice tools for ecommerce built in such as invoicing, donation patlforms, in person PSO. Its a no brainer. 16:30:49 its bad to dance around the btcpay server like its the golden calf. why not build an app that is focused on just Monero? 16:30:58 MAGIC have offered (their registered charity status open for VC funding) 16:30:58 Nicolas is not planning to host this going forward. I personally asked him to come into our gitlab to post a message so everyone was aware of the ongoing conversations. 16:31:02 its a bloated C# codebase 16:31:07 "The only difference is that his PR will need to target the btcpayserver-monero-plugin repository rather than the core code." 16:31:09 that had security issues before 16:31:09 Read the latest messages - hes pinging me soon to handoff 16:31:19 and javascript on the checkout page 16:31:32 "Nicolas is not planning to host this going forward. I personally asked him to come into our gitlab to post a message so everyone was aware of the ongoing conversations." He's not planning to maintain it. 16:31:39 sure its used a lot now. But why cant we push our stuff instead? 16:31:45 Where does he say anything about where it hosted? 16:32:09 i am not strictly against it. But we shouldnt pretend that the btcpayserver is the end all be all super duper 16:32:26 Handoff was (iirc) explicity stated to include OPing you/napoly to maintain the repo 16:32:27 napoly shared a screenshot from nocolasdorier that says the repo @ btcpayserver will be "moved to another organisation" 16:32:30 Napoly and I are offering to be maintainers of this. MAGIC is not capable of maintaining this platform. That includes testing and release management. 16:32:32 My two picos: there’s nothing saying that we can’t make Monero-centric applications. But that also doesn’t mean that we should avoid projects from other groups just because they aren’t tailored for us. 16:32:56 hello 16:33:27 hello 16:33:59 yes. I share that view. I just dont like to see how people worship it like its such a pure and great piece of software. When in reality its just not that great. And it helps BTC more than it helps us 16:34:22 we should be grateful to sidecar with btc guys here.. we couldn't even keep monero integrations alive.. https://github.com/monero-integrations 16:34:27 I agree with this sentiment 16:35:11 napoly monero-integrations is ErCiccione repo. there are bounties currently funded / in funding to update those integrations (add new ones) 16:35:13 thats not the impression i got from people supporting it. The main and really only relevant argument is its popularity. But I can extrapolate from your concerns that BTCPay integration do not mean that we should stop pushing our own solution. 16:35:17 its much better than anything XMR community has produced, and we can leverage their work 16:35:40 metronero isnt done yet 16:35:42 we can equally benefit from it, so your statement is nonsense 16:36:06 btw the first milestone of the browser wallet proposal is making this https://x.com/spirobel/status/1871161899410440670 production ready and adding multi wallet scanning to the new library. all for a third of the price. I didnt ask people to retweet this. I was just letting out my brain farts while coding on twitter but people seem to like it and its good to shill to have monero only software. 16:36:08 yes i'm having there a code review for one year lol.. not sure what it has with erciccione tbh 16:36:09 whats the issue? are they ditching the plugin or.../ 16:36:15 Bitcart works (in use by servers.guru) 16:36:17 We equally benefit it if it doesn’t position Monero as a “2nd fiddle” or altcoin to BYC 16:36:18 btcpayserver video will just be perceived as bowing to btc 16:36:26 We equally benefit it if it doesn’t position Monero as a “2nd fiddle” or altcoin to BTC* (sry irc) 16:36:40 there is no "second fiddle" it either works or it doesnt 16:36:48 what is this petty tribalism 16:36:51 use their tech 16:36:54 simple as 16:37:20 BTCpay is actually mroe popular as an alt payment processor than a btc one 16:37:30 Not being tribal; if this project would work fine if Bitcoin fell apart for some reason, then there isn’t any reason for concern 16:37:32 just cause the devs are maxis doesnt mean the ecosystem or users are 16:37:52 even playing "second fiddle" it still shits on anything XMR has 16:38:01 r4v3r23 - they created a new plugin for monero themselves (to ensure functionality with new arch), but the issue here and now is that they are handing off maintainership to someone from monero community, and where to host the repo 16:38:04 The other comment Justin has was regarding multiwallet support and whether the correct people were in the room. While this is a nice feature for brick and mortar, multiwallet allows any btcpay operator to expose their instance to friends/family. With multiwallet, monero users can also expose their instance in this way. 16:38:39 ok so its just a matter of hosting it...? 16:39:33 i think having XMR in a massive project like btcpay is way more beneficial than a purely XMR project 16:39:49 shops want to give people options, not act as purists re: coins 16:39:58 thats the first issue. Whether there will be multiple implementations of a monero plugin (deverick/napoly's and the original), or whether deverick and napoly will be the "main" implementation 16:40:11 stop talking up btcpayserver. its massive in the sense that its a giant bloated C# pile 16:40:26 BTCPAY SERVER GOOD 16:40:34 If there will be multiple implementations, then it doesnt matter where the repo lives, and the subject needs to focus on the featureset 16:40:40 Continuing on Justin's comments, we fully agree maintenance is the immediate priority and support Justin’s emphasis here. The proposal already incorporates explicit milestones ensuring maintenance as a core objective.The multi-wallet feature (monero-lws integration) complements—not distracts from—maintenance efforts. Its development won’t negatively affect the maintenance schedule but rather would run in parallel, enhancing 16:40:48 u mean GOD too much o 16:41:03 If dev/nap plan to be the main implementation, then i think it should be on btcpayserver repo 16:42:09 And if the main impl (replacing wallet-rpc), i think an mvp and migration path needs to be sorted out forst 16:42:21 listen I am not strictly against this, but it just irks me how hard people simp for the BTC payserver. its not that amazing. We should focus on building out our own apps. 16:42:33 If a key benefit of Monero’s participation in BTCpay is that it remains as an option for their entire ecosystem, then it shouldn’t be moved out of their main impl 16:42:38 its a shame to turn this into not wanting / recognising the importance of monero in btcpay server, many businesses with monero support rely on this and serve their customers with it. the monero plugin will work after version 2.1 , "improving it with said features mentioned in the ccs" and where it will live are the main topics 16:43:01 coincards checkout is a great example of monero integrated into a multicoin payment preocessor 16:43:04 great UX 16:43:23 imagine telling a shop owner that they need a separate solution jsut for 1 coin 16:43:28 yes 16:43:31 thank you napoly and deveriskapollo for attending 16:44:00 my maim q for dev nap 16:44:02 Isolating ourselves from markets doesn't seem the right play spirobel. 16:44:03 Tbf I think there is sorta a disconnect between short-term and long-term goals here 16:44:04 Short-term, we have BTCpay, and we can use it 16:44:06 Long-term, we can talk about new things 16:44:08 r4v3r23 : btcpayserver is moving coins to external plugins. a design choice. not for discussion 16:44:37 i'm not sure what the question is on this topic 16:44:37 Is lws based plugin supposed to replace the wallet-rpc impl? Or be a second option? 16:44:42 because its easier to self host and better to maintain if you dont need 13 different layers of docker to just accept monero. Also the configuration and admin UX suffers. You have to learn all this shit to just accept monero in a self sovereign way. 16:44:43 and it's been going on for a long time now 16:45:01 Something about hosting and maintainership 16:45:06 btcpayserver is super simple to setup and use 16:45:09 Kinda got lost in the weeds 16:45:28 anyway 16:45:33 deverickapollo 16:45:34 plowsof anonero first version is feature complete 16:45:57 its not about isolating. its about having a unique selling proposition. We have many people that are sold on monero and want an easy solution to accept it and build a business and a brand. Many of them are not that good with tech and dont have the time to learn how to configure this giant bloated pile of garbage 16:46:01 supplementary second option 16:46:07 doing last minute clean ups and will claim milestone 2 16:46:11 Thanks nap 16:46:26 @ofrnxmr - no plans to remove wallet-rpc. We'll support both capabilities 16:46:27 thanks for the update r4v3r23, thats great to hear 16:47:04 Are there any changes within the milestones that we would like to make? Improvements? 16:47:12 btw wallet-rpc is also a big topic. We need to replace this current situation. 16:48:10 spirobel: r4v3r23 I think you are repeating yourself. The market share and influence of BTCPay server is real. spirobel concerns over BTCPay security might be true (i never looked at it but can believe it) yet nothing can be done about it. I don't think this is a reason to nuke the proposal nor is it (at my understand of discussion) meant to destroy any future effort to bring a cl ean and monero-focused option. 16:48:23 deverickapollo: doesn't look like it 16:48:30 I can refine the features from the preexisting bounties that napoly and I were working on prior to this if we feel its missing something. 16:48:40 yeah we agree here. i am also not against the proposal 16:48:54 just dont like this btc payserver worship 16:49:10 got it. 16:49:28 ok we have to move on, apologies .. skipping over Monerokon 16:49:30 c. [Monero Browser Wallet](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/555) 16:49:33 Some of the deliverables on the milestones seem to be duplicated work deverickapollo 16:50:01 Like the ci or plugin installation mechanism 16:50:07 Yea I'd agree. I can remove some of the work that is already complete from the existing release 16:50:20 I miscalculated the time, and almost missed the whole meeting. 16:50:24 Also, remote node stuff doesnt work with lws or rpc .. 16:50:24 regarding the monero wallet-rpc 16:50:32 Thx 16:50:37 I really wish we can get people to move to the new rust libraries 16:50:40 hi msvb-lab 16:50:51 it said 18:00 UTC but here we are 16:50:56 Dw msvb-lab we have another 40mins left 16:51:01