00:38:33 if monero heads who have been around (say minimum ... 7 years) could do something differently, what would it be? 00:39:30 or have an idea of what went right or wrong at certain points? 00:41:25 They didn't elect me as king and ceo, and fluffy left (what went wrong) 00:42:19 what went right: bringing in the noethers, creating mrl, community 00:43:20 what went left: fluffy getting arrested and core basically abandoning ship 00:43:20 The latter made monero much more decentralized w/o making it mob-rule 00:46:08 so ofrn has been here a minimum of 7 years? 01:19:30 I've been around for much longer than monero 01:20:23 Not many 7 year olds in this chat seemed like an invitation for anyone to answer 02:03:26 i'm about 6 years as a user 02:03:51 that said, i don't think that number is representative. it's more like 4 years. 05:49:17 i just made up a number to try to get a good slice of history 10:17:44 I spent my Saturday morning to lighten the load on plowsof shoulders a bit. https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1193#issuecomment-2832012597 10:23:33 Meeting in 5hrs37 mins 13:57:04 We should have done the things we did right with more conviction, less bureaucracy, and more resources (people and moneros). 13:58:32 And there is also a thought that we should have maintained/urged/sustained greater anonymity for key people (Devs, Researchers, Maintainers) in the community. 13:59:25 And we also should have ensured we maintained strong DefCon links (if possible). Not sure what happened there. 14:00:48 🤣 14:00:53 Look at the defcon ccs' and you'll see what happened, plain as day 14:00:54 And we also should have ensured that the mob didn't purposely ostracise positive initiatives, creating negative environments along the way, just because they couldn't see their tangible benefit/purpose. Building a network is about a lot more than code/protocol. 14:01:07 Sure sure. 14:02:21 Ask _all the participants_ of _all the defcons_, the value the community got from it, and the wider exposer we created amongst the hacking community, and you'll understand the wider benefit. 14:02:27 Are you blind or smthn? 14:02:50 we should have bought the merch? 14:02:50 the attending of defcon was never an issue, the attached (literal) baggage was 14:03:11 The first DefCon (for example) was the first time everyone in the community had ever met each other. EVER. That's all MRL, all the community members, all the whales, all the maintainers, etc 14:03:23 That sort of interconnection is gold. 14:03:36 Especially when we are potentially in a hostile environment 14:04:09 Msvb still attended defcon, and sold his merch w/o the ccs buying the 500 badges at a 100% markup 14:04:10 Thats counter to your prior point about anonymity 14:04:16 Complete and utter contradiction 14:04:38 @[#voteofrn] have you ever seen some of the badges that were created for the Monero DefCons. A couple of them were the most in demand badges across the whole event. That sort of exposure is again, worth it's weight in gold. 14:05:02 *2 minutes later* 14:05:02 "exposing everyone was gold" 14:05:29 Never crossed my mind because its utter bullshit 14:05:57 Yes, it is. Except not all the people went to DefCon, obviously. 14:06:57 For example, hardly any Devs were there. 14:08:23 We also shouldn't have let outreach die. Not sure why it did 14:08:44 Key people left (not sure why), and we never pointed resources to replace them 14:10:04 "Not sure why", gee, i wonder 14:10:09 Maybe they dont like to get fluffy, ver, samourai'd? 14:10:15 i wonder too 14:10:55 I wonder why whales dont come out and dox themselves 14:11:10 I wonder why luigi doesnt tell us his name an address, or why some devs left the project / left ccs 14:11:28 I wonder why youre not a target 14:11:41 The last one was sarcasm 14:12:19 outreach? Why would outreach get into trouble with the law? 14:14:54 i wasnt aware you were referring to hobbyists 14:15:17 Probably had something better to do with their time 14:15:45 you can call them anything you want, if it makes you feel better about yourself. The initiative died, because we didn't point resources towards it, when key people left. 14:16:11 i dont see any mystery there 14:17:21 They curated (in my opinion) one of the best Monero into respiratories, and it hasn't been replaced. They also had wider plans which were quite grand, but if these sorts of initiatives would be proposed now, the mob would have caniptions. 14:17:38 *info 14:17:57 *info repositories (damn my fingers are dumb) 14:18:09 There was an active ccs when they left aka they had resources and left them on the table. Fym 14:18:42 Sure. But nobody took it up, or any efforts to take it up have been overruled 14:18:57 There have been a few attempts from what I remember 14:19:27 Or maybe it did eventually get repurposed for MoneroKon /meetup initiatives 14:20:03 the funds were recently repurposed for monerotopia, again, fym 14:20:32 Ah yes. Thanks for reminding me. 14:20:50 Anybody, at any point in time, could have completed the ccs. Thems is the rules. 14:23:07 it seemed that defcon didn't want us there, kept restricting the space they would give us 14:31:25 Yes, but even given the reduction in space, we should have maintained the connection, possibly trying to integrate talks into other rooms/tracks, etc. 14:32:29 I have seen the last generation of badges, they were shit. I'd love to design a monero specific badge one day, if it fulfills a specific purpose such as seedsigner, NFC payment card, coldwallet. Software isn't my strength, so unfortunately I can build such a badge until we have software prototypes to be adapted 14:33:12 msvb is still (or was recently) the cryptocurrency villags coordinator (or whatever) 14:33:26 If you come across an idea you think is viable, by all means, reach out 14:33:44 The connection was never severed, and he still sold monero badges and merch after the ccs was declined. I dont understand what youre talking about 14:33:45 Self appointed 14:35:06 either was always self appointed or has an arrangement with defcon (?) 14:35:59 If you are the only contact person in the eyes of defcon, its easy to portray the story as you like 14:36:32 anyway, the loss of the noether's and subsequent slowdown of innovation at mrl is a major reason, imho, about why repeat appearances at these conferences doesnt make much sense. "what's changed since the last time we saw you?" "We went from 11 to 16 rings" 14:38:20 "that was 2 years ago" "oh. Right. I guess nothing has changed. The protocol is the same has last year. Maybe next year we'll have a working mvp of something weve been planning for n years and already spoke about for n years" 14:39:56 and why not like CES etc? Something more mainstream. I dont see how preaching to the choir helps us. Its an echo chamber 14:40:35 so we can make beautiful music 14:40:43 like monerokon 14:41:15 but yeah other places are good to be at 14:47:37 imo, it's not just about "giving a talk on protocol cryptography". There is value in having people in various communities/conferences/events that are indirectly or tangentially related to "Monero". We can learn from others just as much as others can learn from us. 14:52:04 Part of the reason why Monero hasn't been integrated as much as maybe we/some would like (whatever that means) is because we have purposely isolated ourselves from the ecosystem and how it has developed, both technically and ideologically. It's all well and good us dying on a hill, but there might also be value in trying to understand how we can integrate/interoperate/bridge acros 14:52:04 s other networks/communities without compromising on "our ideals" (whatever that means). Personally, sometimes I wonder if our strict fundamentalism has been a hindrance to overall adoption and the development of public good. 14:53:57 I think youre incorrect 14:54:57 mainstream integrations and corporate style funding initiatives, as well as legal grey areas, are why monero isnt integrated as much as bitcoin 14:55:29 It's not just about us vs bitcoin. 14:55:44 Well, were probably _more_ integrated than btc, less integrated than LN, but more used than btc _and_ lightning. 14:56:16 There are plenty of other projects that are "more integrated" than Monero, when that doesn't/didn't necessarily have to be the case. 14:56:20 People add LN because its just a centralized layer that allows them to get paid in fiat because btc is listed on every cex 14:56:45 Such auto-conversions arent as simple for monero because cex's delist to stay out of government crosshairs 14:57:34 "is because we have purposely isolated ourselves from the ecosystem and how it has developed, both technically and ideologically." -- what are some examples, besides defcon ccs 14:57:50 and no businesses cares about bitcoin, tipcoin, monewhatever, visa, mastercard, or quarters from under the rug in your car 14:58:12 All they care about is lowest friction to complete an exchange of goods and services for a MOE 14:59:28 They dont care about your feelgood conference speech about why monero is good. They use visa for convenience, they use cash because it costs less. They add ln because its handled by some third party company similar to visa. 14:59:28 They dont care at all about your ideals 15:00:17 Ideals don't bring foods to the table 15:00:20 As an example, there was wXMR. admittedly, I don't know much about the technicalities, or even whether it was run/operated in a legitimate manner (I know there were/are valid concerns) but there might be real value in having some sort of bridgeable asset. If a CCS came out now for a similar project, I am not sure how it would be viewed. 15:00:44 (like stripe) 15:01:40 A second example is that web wallet initiative from spirobel. I don't see any reason whatsoever not to support that development work, but for some reason people are averse to a "metamask" style UI/UX for a monero wallet. 15:03:06 People are allowed to have their views/opinions 15:03:40 I saw two types of hater on spirobel proposal. The "WEBCRYPTO IS LE HECKING BAD!!!!!!!!" hater (which have very fair argument to back this idea) and the "SPIROBEL WILL NEVER ACHIEVE THIS!!!!!!" hater. 15:04:17 I don't think anyone is seriously doubting about the benefits of having a more accessible wallet like metamask 15:04:29 except the person you shall not pronounce the name 15:07:22 If we accept the web wallet tradeoff of security for usability (like many other successful projects have), then the first concern isn't that valid. I don't have a view on the second concern, as I cannot judge spirobel's ability to code. Having said that, we have always tried to give people the benefit of the doubt, and supported ambition/drive/vision. Not sure why that should change in this instance. 15:08:13 Honestly, a big part of the XMR adoption issue has always been a mindset problem. From the early days, people were constantly told to “use XMR as a tool”, just spend it, not hold it, and never think of it like a currency you can keep and grow with. 15:08:14 There was always this constant bashing of the “number go up” idea, discouraging people from even buying XMR seriously. 15:08:16 Instead, the vibe was “just use it once and throw it away,” treating XMR like some disposable washing machine coin, not a long-term asset. 15:08:18 This mentality hurt the community and adoption badly, and honestly, it’s still haunting things today. 15:16:14 you may have taken things too literally, if you use it it becomes valuable 15:17:17 as opposed to being a ponzi 15:18:09 agree with nioc this time 15:18:13 SEETHE OFRN SEEETHE 15:20:55 ofrn says that it must be convenient, therefore we need the browser wallet 15:39:59 the vast majority of the public hates crypto for the scammy number go up culture. I dont want to be grouped in with that trash, so it makes sense to focus on the usefulness as a tool. In an ideal world new people would use it, have like a 100USD worth of spare cash and randomly notice that holding xmr gave them a better roi then holding usd 15:40:19 Honestly, I think it’s going fine. Only thing that had me upset a bit was deliberating pissing off key developers; I thought that was dumb af. 15:40:20 Oh…. Haveno needs to disconnect from CEX price altogether…. 15:40:22 And the Reddit needs to be abandoned & throw all that effort into lemmy instances & other alternatives. 15:41:00 > Reddit needs to be abandoned 15:41:00 it will never get abandoned 15:44:53 Reddit had more sane responses to the satellite proposal than twitter 15:46:02 satellite proposal, whats that? 15:46:14 jackie 15:46:17 Sounds interesting 15:48:22 I do t want to steal 0.2xmr bounty form jackie for promoting it 15:48:59 asked in dev yesterday but no response - does anyone know why stagenet has a different fee than test/main? 15:49:32 36000 stage vs 20000 main/test 15:51:44 atsamd21 how is your haveno app progress going 15:53:14 pretty good, hoping to have something out on monday so people can test 16:00:02 Meeting time https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1193 16:00:06 greetings! 16:00:09 Hello. 16:00:38 have any recent events highlights to bring up? please share 16:00:41 "alpha stressnet for FCMP++ is scheduled to be ready by May 21st, so get ready!" via jeffro256 16:00:55 Howdy 16:01:49 hi 16:02:52 lets share at the end. 12am here. lets go through the proposals and banter afterwards 16:02:54 repo link for atsamd21's haveno app https://github.com/atsamd21/Haveno-app 16:03:10 https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1193#issuecomment-2832012597 16:03:16 your local time does not dictate the meeting agenda 16:03:24 greeting and updates first 16:03:25 hi 16:03:33 unless of course you are the moderator (also possible) 16:03:50 hello :) 16:03:56 nor does your lack of sleep bring urgency what so ever 16:04:31 https://x.com/rottenwheel1/status/1812412616146297197 16:04:34 👋 16:04:46 is it this one? https://x.com/rottenwheel1/status/1812412616146297197 16:04:57 👀 16:05:14 unstructured meetings just waste everyones time. 16:06:19 No im working on a new one 16:06:24 Hi 16:06:57 you are unhappy with the structure, they are not unstructured. you are free to moderate you own communiyt meeting at a suitable local time , or the same time should people want that 16:07:32 the community meetings are majority 'ccs proposals', people have voiced their concerns about this too 16:08:04 cool. Would be interested to hear your take on the haveno proposal 16:08:09 5xmr for 129GBP, how is that real 16:08:47 stagenet are cheaper to mine 16:09:11 oh 16:09:39 https://www.monerokon.org/ , get ya tickets if you wish to attend 16:10:03 anyone have anything else to highlight? 16:10:26 update your monerods 16:10:48 The XMR/GBP rate is "correct" in the trade on the top, and than 10x lower in the bottom trade. Almost like someone forgot to move a decimal place, lol. But yeah it's fake XMR and fake GBP at the end of the day on stagenet 16:11:45 Cool if true, I know people have been waiting a long time for a mobile Haveno application 16:11:57 lets move on to the ccs proposals , starting with the easiest 16:12:06 e. [Add jeffro256-full-time-2025Q2](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/578) 16:12:12 Merge 16:12:18 +1 16:13:38 Good move 16:13:39 monero.social is dyin 16:13:41 merge 16:13:44 +1 16:13:45 also merge 16:14:14 pigeons : any issues with the matrix server? 16:14:25 thanks for feedback 16:14:32 Yeah its dying 16:14:46 a. [Btcpayserver plugin](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/538) 16:14:59 Very slow 16:15:37 https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/538#note_29756 recent update here 16:15:50 My issues with btcpay have been resolved for the most part, retracted my nack 16:15:52 Changes from feedback merged. Should be good to go 16:16:23 nice so we can merge 16:16:37 sgp also retracted 16:16:42 saw that in the btcpay matrix 16:16:45 thanks for the changes 16:16:50 no i disagree, dont merge, but i don't have any reason 16:17:00 👍️ 16:17:10 /s 16:17:15 /jk 16:17:18 ya all bounty funds were directed to this CCS 16:17:40 👍️ 16:17:46 the bounty funds are TBD still, i think 16:17:48 Curious: have any business directly relying on this plugin pledged to donate any amount of XMR to this CCS? 16:19:08 transferal of the bounty amounts could be rough to time 16:19:17 the bounties were closed (so nobody tries to claim them), but probably still need to ensure that the funds are properly appropriated as to not set precedent of rugging donors by change the goals 16:19:23 plowsof: out now, will check later, what are the symptoms? 16:19:39 Pigeons, just started to be very slow 16:19:46 apparently "slow" but functional* 16:19:49 usual stuff 16:19:59 got disconnected briefly 16:20:00 Seems to be back speedy now 16:20:03 i couldn't do my joke 16:20:04 I'll be campaigning for funding once we get to that stage. 16:22:08 I know I should have brought this up 3 months ago, so don't view this as a blocker, but would be nice to see some corporate support from interested parties before merging since this directly benefits for-profit companies (Coin Cards, Cake Pay, et al) while going through a crowdfunding avenue. 16:22:41 Tbc, it's a great initiative and definitely needs to get done. 16:22:43 coincards commented on the proposal 16:23:04 Coincards has voiced intentions and I've been in contact with Vik. No concerns there. There are several more we should be communicating with. 16:23:10 Some people are complaining about btcpay breaking when they update to 2.1. I havent tried a direct upgrade, but i assume this needs to be fixed 16:23:17 alright thanks for feedback. will try and get confirmation on whats happening with _all_ the bounties funds. payouts are slow so might not be possible to donate them while the proposal is in funding. 16:23:36 seth made a series of tweets for the v2.1 fix for people using the docker method. an env variable and restart iirc 16:23:52 thanks for feedback 16:23:52 Yea, but needs to point to the new repo(?) 16:23:59 Thanks! 16:24:09 b. [Monero Browser Wallet](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/555) 16:24:33 where r4v3r23 ? 16:24:37 where is the popcorn 16:25:14 spirobel 16:26:46 Just want to confirm that once this ccs is complete (or once m2 is complete), we will have a fully functional browser wallet? 16:26:59 yes 16:27:21 https://bounties.monero.social/posts/11/1-216m-authentication-token-proxy , this seems completed pending review, just wanted to share the "http 402 payment required" thingy - have you already accomplished pay walled content via monero payment in browser? if yes can you fit it to this standard please? not sure if this is related to your current 16:27:21 proposal or future work 16:28:35 this is similar to the POC I built 2 years ago. 16:28:37 Meaning send, receive, subaddreses, seed backup(?), all that good stuff that we would expect from a wallet? (coin control?) 16:28:56 I also published the POC as open source recently 16:29:05 yes 16:29:05 indeed, l402 . net is that POC' but fitting to the standard 16:29:34 for example if gingeropolous wanted to enable his api for wordpress shops 16:29:44 I think the milestone conditions could be a clarified. "Monero Browser Wallet" as a milestone without further qualification is not clear what is actually being delivered and will inevitably result in drama down the road when people disagree on what a "monero browser wallet" is. What browsers are targeted? What are the actual features outline for this specific payout? What kind of 16:29:44 UI are you going for? 16:29:50 he could add a proxy infront of the back end api 16:30:13 then the grifters can pay , but slightly offtopic 16:30:27 jeffro, its (aiui) a browser extension like metamask 16:30:53 web wallet vs browser wallet big difference 16:31:10 Not sure if the same ux like metamask / brave wallet 16:32:10 one advantage of this wallet , it behaves like moneor-wallet-cli running on your machine. no need to find a node with CORS enabled 16:32:15 Yes, I understand the general concept of a browser wallet, but the proposal needs way more details attached to specific milestones so the community knows what it's funding, and what it will receive at specific milestones 16:33:22 I will rewrite the POC as an MV2 extension to get it published on the chrome store. the ui will contain everything you expect from a browser wallet like meta mask. 16:33:49 Because I want to avoid drama again where the proposer and the CCS participants misunderstand each other on which point the funds are released 16:34:05 the 3 deliverables under What jeffro256 https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/555#what should be clarified? 16:35:43 In my view it is clarified enough because I also published the PoC source code. It is clear from that what a browser wallet is from my understanding 16:36:40 I can go ahead and do wireframes and spec everything out in detail, but that itself is a large chunk of work. And it will lead to inflexibility 16:37:04 sometimes a design needs to be adapted and iterated on 16:39:01 "What browsers are targeted? What are the actual features outline for this specific payout? What kind of UI are you going for?"<< probably clarify these in the proposal 16:39:14 yeah seems sane 16:39:20