00:38:33 if monero heads who have been around (say minimum ... 7 years) could do something differently, what would it be? 00:39:30 or have an idea of what went right or wrong at certain points? 00:41:25 They didn't elect me as king and ceo, and fluffy left (what went wrong) 00:42:19 what went right: bringing in the noethers, creating mrl, community 00:43:20 what went left: fluffy getting arrested and core basically abandoning ship 00:43:20 The latter made monero much more decentralized w/o making it mob-rule 00:46:08 so ofrn has been here a minimum of 7 years? 01:19:30 I've been around for much longer than monero 01:20:23 Not many 7 year olds in this chat seemed like an invitation for anyone to answer 02:03:26 i'm about 6 years as a user 02:03:51 that said, i don't think that number is representative. it's more like 4 years. 05:49:17 i just made up a number to try to get a good slice of history 10:17:44 I spent my Saturday morning to lighten the load on plowsof shoulders a bit. https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1193#issuecomment-2832012597 10:23:33 Meeting in 5hrs37 mins 13:57:04 We should have done the things we did right with more conviction, less bureaucracy, and more resources (people and moneros). 13:58:32 And there is also a thought that we should have maintained/urged/sustained greater anonymity for key people (Devs, Researchers, Maintainers) in the community. 13:59:25 And we also should have ensured we maintained strong DefCon links (if possible). Not sure what happened there. 14:00:48 🤣 14:00:53 Look at the defcon ccs' and you'll see what happened, plain as day 14:00:54 And we also should have ensured that the mob didn't purposely ostracise positive initiatives, creating negative environments along the way, just because they couldn't see their tangible benefit/purpose. Building a network is about a lot more than code/protocol. 14:01:07 Sure sure. 14:02:21 Ask _all the participants_ of _all the defcons_, the value the community got from it, and the wider exposer we created amongst the hacking community, and you'll understand the wider benefit. 14:02:27 Are you blind or smthn? 14:02:50 we should have bought the merch? 14:02:50 the attending of defcon was never an issue, the attached (literal) baggage was 14:03:11 The first DefCon (for example) was the first time everyone in the community had ever met each other. EVER. That's all MRL, all the community members, all the whales, all the maintainers, etc 14:03:23 That sort of interconnection is gold. 14:03:36 Especially when we are potentially in a hostile environment 14:04:09 Msvb still attended defcon, and sold his merch w/o the ccs buying the 500 badges at a 100% markup 14:04:10 Thats counter to your prior point about anonymity 14:04:16 Complete and utter contradiction 14:04:38 @[#voteofrn] have you ever seen some of the badges that were created for the Monero DefCons. A couple of them were the most in demand badges across the whole event. That sort of exposure is again, worth it's weight in gold. 14:05:02 *2 minutes later* 14:05:02 "exposing everyone was gold" 14:05:29 Never crossed my mind because its utter bullshit 14:05:57 Yes, it is. Except not all the people went to DefCon, obviously. 14:06:57 For example, hardly any Devs were there. 14:08:23 We also shouldn't have let outreach die. Not sure why it did 14:08:44 Key people left (not sure why), and we never pointed resources to replace them 14:10:04 "Not sure why", gee, i wonder 14:10:09 Maybe they dont like to get fluffy, ver, samourai'd? 14:10:15 i wonder too 14:10:55 I wonder why whales dont come out and dox themselves 14:11:10 I wonder why luigi doesnt tell us his name an address, or why some devs left the project / left ccs 14:11:28 I wonder why youre not a target 14:11:41 The last one was sarcasm 14:12:19 outreach? Why would outreach get into trouble with the law? 14:14:54 i wasnt aware you were referring to hobbyists 14:15:17 Probably had something better to do with their time 14:15:45 you can call them anything you want, if it makes you feel better about yourself. The initiative died, because we didn't point resources towards it, when key people left. 14:16:11 i dont see any mystery there 14:17:21 They curated (in my opinion) one of the best Monero into respiratories, and it hasn't been replaced. They also had wider plans which were quite grand, but if these sorts of initiatives would be proposed now, the mob would have caniptions. 14:17:38 *info 14:17:57 *info repositories (damn my fingers are dumb) 14:18:09 There was an active ccs when they left aka they had resources and left them on the table. Fym 14:18:42 Sure. But nobody took it up, or any efforts to take it up have been overruled 14:18:57 There have been a few attempts from what I remember 14:19:27 Or maybe it did eventually get repurposed for MoneroKon /meetup initiatives 14:20:03 the funds were recently repurposed for monerotopia, again, fym 14:20:32 Ah yes. Thanks for reminding me. 14:20:50 Anybody, at any point in time, could have completed the ccs. Thems is the rules. 14:23:07 it seemed that defcon didn't want us there, kept restricting the space they would give us 14:31:25 Yes, but even given the reduction in space, we should have maintained the connection, possibly trying to integrate talks into other rooms/tracks, etc. 14:32:29 I have seen the last generation of badges, they were shit. I'd love to design a monero specific badge one day, if it fulfills a specific purpose such as seedsigner, NFC payment card, coldwallet. Software isn't my strength, so unfortunately I can build such a badge until we have software prototypes to be adapted 14:33:12 msvb is still (or was recently) the cryptocurrency villags coordinator (or whatever) 14:33:26 If you come across an idea you think is viable, by all means, reach out 14:33:44 The connection was never severed, and he still sold monero badges and merch after the ccs was declined. I dont understand what youre talking about 14:33:45 Self appointed 14:35:06 either was always self appointed or has an arrangement with defcon (?) 14:35:59 If you are the only contact person in the eyes of defcon, its easy to portray the story as you like 14:36:32 anyway, the loss of the noether's and subsequent slowdown of innovation at mrl is a major reason, imho, about why repeat appearances at these conferences doesnt make much sense. "what's changed since the last time we saw you?" "We went from 11 to 16 rings" 14:38:20 "that was 2 years ago" "oh. Right. I guess nothing has changed. The protocol is the same has last year. Maybe next year we'll have a working mvp of something weve been planning for n years and already spoke about for n years" 14:39:56 and why not like CES etc? Something more mainstream. I dont see how preaching to the choir helps us. Its an echo chamber 14:40:35 so we can make beautiful music 14:40:43 like monerokon 14:41:15 but yeah other places are good to be at 14:47:37 imo, it's not just about "giving a talk on protocol cryptography". There is value in having people in various communities/conferences/events that are indirectly or tangentially related to "Monero". We can learn from others just as much as others can learn from us. 14:52:04 Part of the reason why Monero hasn't been integrated as much as maybe we/some would like (whatever that means) is because we have purposely isolated ourselves from the ecosystem and how it has developed, both technically and ideologically. It's all well and good us dying on a hill, but there might also be value in trying to understand how we can integrate/interoperate/bridge acros 14:52:04 s other networks/communities without compromising on "our ideals" (whatever that means). Personally, sometimes I wonder if our strict fundamentalism has been a hindrance to overall adoption and the development of public good. 14:53:57 I think youre incorrect 14:54:57 mainstream integrations and corporate style funding initiatives, as well as legal grey areas, are why monero isnt integrated as much as bitcoin 14:55:29 It's not just about us vs bitcoin. 14:55:44 Well, were probably _more_ integrated than btc, less integrated than LN, but more used than btc _and_ lightning. 14:56:16 There are plenty of other projects that are "more integrated" than Monero, when that doesn't/didn't necessarily have to be the case. 14:56:20 People add LN because its just a centralized layer that allows them to get paid in fiat because btc is listed on every cex 14:56:45 Such auto-conversions arent as simple for monero because cex's delist to stay out of government crosshairs 14:57:34 "is because we have purposely isolated ourselves from the ecosystem and how it has developed, both technically and ideologically." -- what are some examples, besides defcon ccs 14:57:50 and no businesses cares about bitcoin, tipcoin, monewhatever, visa, mastercard, or quarters from under the rug in your car 14:58:12 All they care about is lowest friction to complete an exchange of goods and services for a MOE 14:59:28 They dont care about your feelgood conference speech about why monero is good. They use visa for convenience, they use cash because it costs less. They add ln because its handled by some third party company similar to visa. 14:59:28 They dont care at all about your ideals 15:00:17 Ideals don't bring foods to the table 15:00:20 As an example, there was wXMR. admittedly, I don't know much about the technicalities, or even whether it was run/operated in a legitimate manner (I know there were/are valid concerns) but there might be real value in having some sort of bridgeable asset. If a CCS came out now for a similar project, I am not sure how it would be viewed. 15:00:44 (like stripe) 15:01:40 A second example is that web wallet initiative from spirobel. I don't see any reason whatsoever not to support that development work, but for some reason people are averse to a "metamask" style UI/UX for a monero wallet. 15:03:06 People are allowed to have their views/opinions 15:03:40 I saw two types of hater on spirobel proposal. The "WEBCRYPTO IS LE HECKING BAD!!!!!!!!" hater (which have very fair argument to back this idea) and the "SPIROBEL WILL NEVER ACHIEVE THIS!!!!!!" hater. 15:04:17 I don't think anyone is seriously doubting about the benefits of having a more accessible wallet like metamask 15:04:29 except the person you shall not pronounce the name 15:07:22 If we accept the web wallet tradeoff of security for usability (like many other successful projects have), then the first concern isn't that valid. I don't have a view on the second concern, as I cannot judge spirobel's ability to code. Having said that, we have always tried to give people the benefit of the doubt, and supported ambition/drive/vision. Not sure why that should change in this instance. 15:08:13 Honestly, a big part of the XMR adoption issue has always been a mindset problem. From the early days, people were constantly told to “use XMR as a tool”, just spend it, not hold it, and never think of it like a currency you can keep and grow with. 15:08:14 There was always this constant bashing of the “number go up” idea, discouraging people from even buying XMR seriously. 15:08:16 Instead, the vibe was “just use it once and throw it away,” treating XMR like some disposable washing machine coin, not a long-term asset. 15:08:18 This mentality hurt the community and adoption badly, and honestly, it’s still haunting things today. 15:16:14 you may have taken things too literally, if you use it it becomes valuable