01:25:43 what happens if a wallet only has incoming transactions? is it impacted by this vulnerability? 01:34:41 has anyone ever seen this one before? i haven't, didn't have a chance to change log level. RROR blockchain src/cryptonote_core/tx_verification_utils.cpp:328 rct signature semantics check failed: simple-style batch verification failed 01:36:45 v0.18.4.2 01:37:47 What log level? I think ive seen before but dont remember 01:40:03 monerod was on set_log 1 so i didn't get more info 01:41:01 2025-08-27 00:45:30.985 [P2P8] WARNING ringct src/ringct/rctOps.cpp:457 ge_frombytes_vartime failed at 4572025-08-27 00:45:31.006 [P2P8] ERROR blockchain src/cryptonote_core/tx_verification_utils.cpp:328 rct signature semantics check failed: simple-style batch verification failed 01:41:35 No. It would be impacted if you imported key images then refreshed on your first session though I think 01:41:58 baz, I had the same error today on one of my monerod 01:42:05 Or yeah if you just haven't spent yet 01:42:16 Then it wouldnt be impacted 01:42:27 imported key images... does that mean using a seed to recover a wallet? 01:42:31 DataHoarder: 18.4.2? 01:42:59 custom built, but from release-18 yeah 01:43:01 Sorry I was assuming that you were talking about view-only wallets 01:43:26 You have to import key images to see outgoing transactions in those types of wallets 01:43:27 nope 01:43:57 If its a normal wallet with only incoming transactions , then its not affected 01:44:34 this was seen on one of my public nodes 01:45:00 interesting. feather wallet fixed this issue 2 years ago, but you mentioned there was a niche case where the patch fails. what is this niche case? 01:45:15 baz: I have one node with extra logging, lemme see 01:45:20 `m_ring_history_saved = true` is all feather wallet does 01:45:34 on dev one with only outgoing connections I saw that but ignored 01:46:57 The niche case is if the feather wallet was made before that patch, and not re-opened since then. It would trigger on next load 01:47:41 just wanted to share in case of a regression or the like 01:47:43 oh 01:48:01 thx jeffro256 for clearing my doubts! I appreciate your work on carrot btw ;) 01:48:44 Thanks for the kind words :) 08:10:39 baz: it means someone sent invalid data to your node that failed to verify 08:10:57 not related to v0.18.4.2 10:09:13 tallhatdoug:matrix.org: "`m_ring_history_saved = true` is all feather wallet does" <- I linked two patches. The calls to find_and_save_rings are also patched out. 10:37:38 bruh the hate against PoS is really just coming from people who have no idea what PoS even means for the protocol 10:47:57 monerobull is a government sockpuppet confirmed 10:48:04 👍️ 10:48:28 bring the true mb back!!!! 10:52:42 PoW >>>>> PoS 11:02:18 PoS derangement syndrome lol 11:12:31 i dont think so 11:12:54 the whole concept of renting hashrate fucked the whole game-theory over 11:13:44 sure, renting for long amounts of time gets expensive but we definitely need the finality layer against short term burst attacks 11:17:08 I think it needs to be made clear that a finality layer would just be a layer on top that would safeguard the existing PoW system. Nothing is getting replaced. Its like complaining about adding a electronic lock to a door, just because it is not a padlock. 11:18:58 I think it needs to be made clear that a finality layer would just be a layer on top that would safeguard the existing PoW system. Nothing is getting replaced, so it’s not a question of whether PoW or PoS is better. Its like complaining about adding a electronic lock to a door, just because it is not a padlock. 11:23:28 the borrowing of XMR will fuck the PoS layer 11:33:10 hbs are you going to lend out your xmr to someone who will then use your coins to devalue your own coins? 11:33:53 PoW miners are mercenaries and it turns out that they will turn their back on your network as soon as they can get a little bit of short term profit elsewhere 11:34:10 PoS stakers have an actual .... stake in the network 11:38:00 i cant be the only one who now thinks PoW cant work in todays world right? 11:38:06 > PoW miners are mercenaries and it turns out that they will turn their back on your network as soon as they can get a little bit of short term profit elsewhere 11:38:10 ^^ lot of truth in this 11:38:52 Merge mining helps with this 11:39:11 i used to believe "oh theyd never bite the hand that feeds them / keeps their literal money printer running" but at least some of the botnets jumped ship at the very first chance 11:39:31 merge mining has the very same problems 11:40:06 i think we have moved well past the stage where ideology is a stronger incentive than profit. we probably moved past that stage about a decade ago. monero once had a massive ideology incentive, but i am not sure it exists in the same way anymore. we can pretend it does, but i am not so sure 11:40:41 i think PoW has been way too romanticized 11:41:31 some of us here will have threadrippers, sure. but most people have a weak ass CPU that gets out-hashed with a few cents of rented hash 11:42:12 plowsof: why would any "new" coins consider merge mining with monero, when it has a distinct vulnerability that has been (at least somewhat) exposed? the only reason Tari merge mines is cause of the married ideology, predominantly from the 'founders'. 11:42:36 even if i wanted to help the network more, buying a $20k machine that gets out-hashed with a few dollars of hash is still nowhere near the same level of security as 20k would add in a PoS sytem 11:43:44 I agree, but I think it's more worser in monero's case when it led to a focus on using CPU only in a romantic effort to let "everyman" mine 11:43:45 most people obvs dgaf 11:43:57 at least with specialized hw then miners are really fucking themselves over when they attack the network 11:44:04 there's zero cost to attack with CPUs 11:44:08 p2pool adoption proved this years ago tbh 11:44:31 i remember the dev going on monerotalk 1 year after launch and just being sad about the lack of adoption 11:44:46 has moving to sha3 been proposed this time around? i know it was mentioned some time ago 11:45:09 I mean, p2pool exist since forever on bitcoin+clones, and no one really use it there either... 11:45:20 asics are even worse 11:45:49 they don't seem to suffer from the same (more glaring and immediate) issues that monero is facing now 11:45:58 and I disagree anyway 11:46:16 most new btc blocks are mined by OFAC kyc miners 11:46:21 located in the USA 11:46:23 African farmer being able to mine 0.01$ of Monero a week with it’s android >> Having a secure network 11:46:32 registered companies that can be pressured by the government 11:46:45 40% of hash is in USA so that's...not possible? 11:47:41 Is there an example of a POW Coin where the hashrate distribution is actually decentralized? 11:48:24 maybe my numbers on btc are off but its still a massive amount and you cant exactly hide an asic farm from someone motivated to shut you down 11:48:40 all of them? it's a spectrum, not an absolute, and I think at this point all major ASIC coins have better decentralization than monero, clearly 11:50:33 i bet most of us here could and would run a staking node and it would add tremendously more security than us all mining on our home machines 11:51:16 I don’t think they are more decentralized, it’s more that Asics are more difficult to rent & Miners who invested 5k plus for specific hw are unluckily to want to hurt the network 11:52:17 staking is essentially existing banking 11:52:18 You are overestimating people's wealth unfortunately 11:52:20 by that logic ASIC mining is just PoS again 11:52:24 tradfi 11:52:27 bold assumption 11:52:57 locking up coins is not the same as investing in dedicated specialized hardware and constantly burning electricity imo 11:52:59 and how is mining any different CT 11:53:01 Yeah exactly 11:53:24 i agree with the "constant" part of PoW being somewhat important 11:53:36 so maybe hybrid is indeed the best solution for monero 11:53:38 Pure PoS is off the table for everyone I hope 11:54:11 I think decred is an example of why the hybrid stuff is just excessive complexity that is ultimately just PoS 11:54:35 they started with PoW much more prominent, then the PoS side basically minimized PoW to nothing and shifted all rewards to PoS people 11:54:37 now if you combine both pow and pos you better make sure you are not combining the problems 11:54:45 the only reason why i consider pure PoS is because a PoS layer would be so expensive to attack anyways that taking on the PoW layer is a rounding error 11:55:05 but other than that i have nothing against hybrid 11:55:17 I think it makes more sense than hybrid system with excessive complexity where PoW is just for theater anyway 11:55:18 but I'm not a fan 11:55:54 yeah, same exact view 11:55:57 cost better balanced to keep things running, rather then sitting on a pile of cash and get paid for fuckall 11:56:01 this is my worry too 11:56:20 you are still running a node and validating transactions 11:56:40 I just would like to see open discussions between the devs without prejudice, to try and understand what would make the network objectively as safe as possible 11:56:41 but yeah the constant cost aspect of pow is important too 11:57:32 The same way a bank is still putting up atms 11:57:33 The cost equation has to be shifted as much as possible to upkeep rather then invest 11:57:50 NO! PoS is a government psyop. YOU CANNOT LISTEN TO THEIR ARGUMENT 11:58:15 I think Pow is being over romanticized 11:58:24 AHHH TRAITOR TO MONERO, WE NEED GPU MINING... AND MAKE IT PROFITABLE BECAUSE IM NOSTALGIC FOR ETH 11:58:31 most retarded suggestion btw 11:58:32 I think you have been kidnapped and replaced by a glowie 11:58:41 mav with the loudest voice 11:58:43 otherwise you'll be taken over by the bankers in no time 11:58:48 Matrix is breaking message order sorry 11:59:01 Hyrid is the way to go 11:59:18 probably 11:59:40 its also the "easiest to swallow" for the PoW diehards 12:00:05 Keeps our current miners happy 12:00:12 imo this is the best suggestion if it's GPU to start and then shifts to ASICs 12:00:23 it's a big enough coin that multiple manufacturers would produce them I think 12:00:58 pure pos is unacceptable 12:00:59 Violates the core principles of xmr 12:01:02 Gpu pow will be so easy to 51% 12:01:08 asics are cancer 12:01:09 manufacturers when one of their employee burst into the room and propose to make ASICs for a coin that is impossible to sell in big batch in most continents 12:01:12 so does CPU only mining 12:01:44 what 12:01:49 Not really 12:01:54 ok guys how about PoS plus PoW with PoW being CPU & ASIC mining :D 12:02:14 Pos+randomx 12:02:30 You think jwinterm ? How so? 12:02:31 Isn’t one of the principles to make Monero unstoppable? Seems very stoppable to me now 12:02:46 guys everyone talking about traditional PoS with a minimal stake to participate but how about no lower bound. Anyone can participate with as much as ONE piconero, but the *disgusting poors* are less likely to be selected to validate a block 12:03:03 how does that sound? 12:03:19 There needs to be a minimum 12:03:21 I don't even know where you are getting "core principles" from, but if you go all the way back to cryptonote paper they say they wanted egalitarian mining where cpu, gpu, and asic are all competitive 12:03:23 stop copy pasting the same thing you said yesterday 12:03:25 CPU mining goes against moneros ethos because the farrytale of 1 cpu 1 vote goes out the window once you add mercenary botnets and datacenters 12:03:32 the joke... 12:03:57 Lol got me 12:03:59 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/oqHVHjnORxcatDSrECUJiIpc 12:04:01 we dont have the tech for that 12:04:08 doesn't say that gpus and asics can go pound sand 12:04:20 Core principles based on vibe 12:04:35 you need to form consensus somehow and most systems dont scale beyond a few tens of thousand members 12:04:37 1 cpu 1 vote is a myth it has never been part of of monero core principles. The principle that has been referring to was the fact that EVERYONE should be able to participate in ANY ASPECT OF THE NETWORK 12:04:58 Which is impossible with PoS because of the minimum stake required 12:05:02 vibe governance 12:05:07 If you want to change monero ethos, feel free to do so but assume 12:05:13 Aren’t there too many gpus with a few entities 12:05:24 SyntheticMoo, the true and only one: so a hybrid layer would still fit the bill 12:05:44 No 12:05:48 imo it wouldn't fit 12:05:50 I have come around to the view that dedicated hardware makes the most sense, and if CPU and GPU can mine and make some coin that's nice 12:05:51 You can still mine, pos is just securing your chain from cubic like actors 12:05:53 there are tons and tons of idle gpus in the world 12:05:55 Do staking pools exist in ETH? 12:06:06 yeah 12:06:10 rocketpool 12:06:14 ANY ASPECT OF THE NETWORK 12:06:24 lets you stake with i believe 8 ETH instead of 32 12:06:26 poors can't participate in the PoS layer in a TFL approach 12:06:41 but that only works because of smart contracts 12:06:47 im explicitly saying poors because its very funny and shitposting tier, not because i see people with no wealth as bad. 12:06:52 we'd have to specifically make it a blockchain feature for us 12:06:53 wish everyone to have some fortune 12:07:04 With current price you are not going to get those dedicated hardware miners, that boat sailed a few yrs ago when we had chance to have minimum ram requirements to avoid botnets 12:07:14 they can after mining enough on their android 12:07:28 > EVERYONE should be able to participate in ANY ASPECT OF THE NETWORK 12:07:29 this sounds overly romantic and completely impractical (and has never been true anyway) 12:07:31 bad faith argument 12:07:34 as long as you have some sort of mining the chain is still permissionless 12:07:36 you know its impossible 12:08:01 grin.mw has ASICs and is frequently most profitable GPU coin to mine on whattomine.com 12:08:03 and i honestly dont care that someone with $5 in monero cant validate it 12:08:14 Thanks be clear about it 12:08:20 not unthinkable imo 12:08:22 that's all im asking for 12:08:26 So like voting in democracies? 12:08:46 NO POLITICS OR I'LL FIND YOU AND STUFF YOU INTO MY MOUTH 12:08:55 Mined by a few Chinese asic manufacturers 12:08:56 this isnt some willy nilly game 12:08:58 this is a 5 billion dollar payment network 12:08:59 of course you need infrastructure to secure it 12:09:01 of course that isnt free 12:09:12 this is complete speculation with no evidence and I disagree 12:10:05 and given that transactions on monero are largely indistinguishable I think zcash (which is one chinese pool) is in a better position than monero (if it had indistinguisable txs, which it doesn't) 12:10:07 can we make voting right proportional to the wealth pls? I'm sure this would fix everything 12:10:13 How many of those ASICS were sold and what was the manufacturing capacity? 12:10:18 thats literally the joke i made earlier 12:10:20 rather have one pool that will fuck itself over with 51% when it can't really censor anyway 12:10:33 they've been reselling on secondary markets for years 12:10:34 but it's not rational 12:10:41 I don't think ipollo shares their financials 12:10:43 you need a lower stake 12:10:48 midipoet its vulnerability against an economic attack and selfish mining - papers / counter measures on the matter have existed since 2013 and earlier, but new coins piggy backing off of randomX is also a tricky one and maybe unrelated to the problem at hand - a new coin launching with randomX has its own unique problems, townforge added Proof Of 12:10:48 Settlement to in part reduce the risks of 51% attacks. Dns checkpointing will be effective against selfish miners according to the people who have been stopping them with various means 12:10:53 you need a lower bound 12:11:15 So same machines are changing hands and how has the hashrate progressed over the years ? 12:11:17 as if wealth doesnt heavily influence politics already 12:11:23 moves with price, same as every coin ever 12:11:36 I ask myself if a top monero pool can generate enough monero to participate in the finality layer? Or if any large amount if monreo seized can be used to participate? Think 5 eyes seizing 5 billions in internet money 12:11:48 plowsof can we have a new monero-consensus channel 12:11:59 Maybe i need a book in this TFL to understand it .ore 12:12:29 Which asic pow are you going to use for monero ? 12:12:32 btw dns checkpoints are literally just entrusting the network with core 12:12:41 good q 12:12:46 who are probably 2 +60yo dudes 12:12:52 I love centralization 12:12:54 it's a good thing 12:12:59 as long as i trust people in charge 12:13:05 and people in charge i trust them 12:13:14 👍️ 12:13:16 PoS is literally more decentralized than PoW with DNS checkpoints 12:13:26 red herring 12:14:18