00:00:35 I just naturally see the finality layer as the next progression of that. In a way, making those checkpoints less centralized, via a sensible PoS impl 00:00:49 as soon as short term is in and maintenance is kept on them for any changes/improvements, focus should be given to all other options, medium or long term 00:13:48 @sgp_: How much xmr do you think has been seized be governments? 00:15:09 If you have another decentralized option other than PoS, I'm all ears. I just know "rely on 5 people to run DNS servers" (or whatever similar number) isn't a permanent answer 00:15:15 I personally will (probably) never be in favor of pos that hands control of the network to people who don't contribute to it 00:15:25 @sgp_: 1* 00:15:41 Not intended to be permanent 00:16:06 But hopefully puts us back on stable ground, and rains on would-be attackers parades 00:17:14 New idea: XMRc, or Monero contribution tokens. 100% distributed to the core team, and they issue them out to "super good devs only" which are then used for PoS, done 😅 obviously kidding 00:17:19 In the early discussions about hybridpos, i had spoken about proof of pow. This being that you could only stake coinbases 00:17:38 Anyway I'll shut up for now about PoS, but I'm a) glad DNS is being done now, and b) really hoping that the CCS is merged 00:18:17 Because I consider being reliant on centralized DNS an "emergency", personally 00:18:36 it took a grim trigger to kickstart the real part 00:18:49 better later than never :) 00:18:53 This is similar to dns checkpoints, in that miners control the stake. 00:18:53 i think its very possible for bad actors to own over 10% of the global supply, and would hate for us governmens strategic monero confiscated reserve to have power over the blockchain 00:19:00 Grim tiggers are how it always happens unfortunately. Same with spam 00:19:19 Also, do you have any idea how fast monero was mined? Im at like blocj 2000 on testnet with probabky over 100kxmr 00:19:23 so much game theory, but the other side is a pigeon shitting over the board and it just flipped it 00:19:23 Thats 3 days 00:20:52 If monero had a much smoother emission, i might think pos was viable. But the emission curve was a scam when bytecoin did it, but "fair" when monero didnt change it (just because it was "public") 00:36:53 So let’s stick to a couple of ppl act as finality layer 00:39:39 The bad actors can mine and do pos > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> In the early discussions about hybridpos, i had spoken about proof of pow. This being that you could only stake coinbases 00:41:28 and non-actors (governments with 2million+xmr), cexs, and other bad actors can just do pos 00:43:13 @elongated:matrix.org: Pos finality is like 500ppl, (more likely a handful of staking pools) 00:54:59 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Why just 500 ? Are you putting a minimum of 1k xmr? 00:56:12 Because it doesnt scale 00:56:32 Those are lukes numbers, not mine 00:56:39 I thought 100, and he corrected me @ ~500 01:05:16 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: 500 XMR???? 01:05:35 500 stakers 01:06:11 Thats more like 6000xmr avg oer persob if 3million xmr are staked 01:06:12 Oh sorry or is that 500 users? 500 XMR to stake is almost as bad as the ETH validator requirement 01:06:50 500xmr stake oer person is onky 250kxmr 01:07:46 its more like, exchange A will have 200/500 stakers 01:08:01 500 XMR ~$150k at current prices. 32 ETH is required for solo staking 01:08:15 Its much more than 500xmr 01:08:44 @ofrnxmr: I'm talking about the requirement for solo staking. If it's minimum 500 XMR, PoS will not work 01:09:04 500 people means the min would be more like 6000 xmr 01:09:23 Or, conservatively, 2000 01:23:47 A 500xmr minimum might be possible, but the largest whales will squeeze you out by splitting their wallets up into 501 xmr 01:24:22 Its not like anyone who wants to stake, can stake. Its the 500 largest wallets (or some other selection criteria) get to stake 01:39:03 Eth has 10000+ solo stakers 01:41:19 And finality layer is limited to ~500 01:42:08 @ofrnxmr: Why would it be limited though, I guess we need to wait for the book 01:42:11 @elongated:matrix.org: Thats over 1billion usd staked solo? 01:42:28 @elongated:matrix.org: he spoke on it before 01:43:01 @ofrnxmr: Why it can’t scale when eth can do it ? 01:43:47 @ofrnxmr: https://www.stakecat.space/blog/solo-stakers-arent-going-away 01:43:48 maybe has something to do with the non-public nature of the outputs 01:45:43 We have a good number of ppl who run nodes without any incentive, pos will surely double it 01:48:38 more nodes isnt a great thing 01:49:26 Adds delays to propagation, increased bandwidth, etc 01:50:02 @ofrnxmr: Yah I meant we can have same number of validators 02:51:55 hey all pretty sure I had a transaction caught up in the reorg. 02:52:32 Wondering if it's sionara to the funds or if there's a solution as I can't send the inputs from feather anymore 03:19:36 Did you send the funds or receive them? 03:20:39 force feather to connect to only the monerodevs nodes (disable "let feather manage nodes") 03:21:06 If you are running and using your own node, run monerod flush_txpool 03:39:25 Potentially both. Not sure what actually got caught in the mess, just that the current inputs can't be spent. I'll give what you suggested a shot and report back. 05:13:20 what matters is how distributed they are, a lot are on AWS unfortunately > <@elongated:matrix.org> Eth has 10000+ solo stakers 06:10:16 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Why would someone want to became a validator ? 06:10:36 Is there any incentive to do that ? 06:13:07 @interestingband:matrix.org: Delicious juicy fees and reward 06:13:19 Cooked by our Chef ofrn 06:13:27 Huh I mean ArticMine 06:15:06 fees are supposed to be small, so unimportant 06:15:38 reward ? you mean block reward ? 06:18:38 "Cooked by our Chef" it's funny that you have write permissions in MRL and I don't 06:21:44 emission of tokens without any proof of work (or something else ) means inflation of value of all issued tokens so far 06:28:14 it's basically the same scam as any token issued by government (aka currency) 07:14:52 and I doubt that kayabanerve understands that otherwise he would write a research paper that pushes state of art for PoS rather than a book 07:14:59 also I'm really sceptical about people who are writing books 07:15:16 @interestingband:matrix.org you have an imposter here 07:15:50 idk 07:16:04 s/idk/idc/ 07:17:00 validators decide who mines the block right? https://blocks.p2pool.observer/ 07:17:36 Plow @interestingband:synod.im ban plz 07:17:46 potential validators could start creating a checklist for those approved to mine blocks. hmm 07:18:25 no proofs provided? no thank you, we dont know if you're paying your tithe fees 07:19:38 (test)the tithe fees to the foundation allow us to fund further development and research for the greater good 07:20:04 What is the point of censoring miners by validators ? 07:20:58 since every miner does real work (RandomX) 07:21:10 control / power / money - humans will be involved 07:23:03 i will ban the imposter, just waiting for matrix to load 07:24:46 Ty 07:26:23 pow has become too cheap and abundant 07:26:46 you cant secure the chain with it if its dirt-cheap to rent large amounts for short term attacks 07:26:58 Become? 07:27:07 the entire security design assumes getting the hardware to launch an attack is unfeasible 07:27:14 and it is 07:27:32 no it doesnt 07:27:33 the hardware to get 10% of nethash would be ~75 million usd 07:27:40 renting 10% of nethash? tens of thousands 07:27:42 Pos security does 07:27:56 Is monero was 100k, pos might make sense 07:28:21 hardware cost is part of the pow security assumptions, or at the very least was at some point 07:28:26 us military budget is like 700b per year 07:31:07 Tether and fed can print $ out of thin air. if gov has 2million seized xmr, thats enough to have 500 staking wallets with 4000xnr each 07:31:47 @monerobull:matrix.org: Pow starts out as ~0$ in network security 07:32:46 most networks start with $0 07:33:12 and most low cap pos neteorks are bought up and hoarded by whales 07:33:31 you're really arguing that hardware cost was never a factor in determining PoW security? 07:33:37 Or already owned by ninjamine emissions curves (like moneros) 07:34:05 @monerobull:matrix.org: No, im arguing that cost is always relative 07:35:26 Which doesn't represent a large budget, therefore very low parlimentary oversight, which is not the case to sustain hashpower rental > <@ofrnxmr> Tether and fed can print $ out of thin air. if gov has 2million seized xmr, thats enough to have 500 staking wallets with 4000xnr each 07:39:27 defense is about having protection with cost to break that is on par with value of anything being protected, so even small entities can defend themself by making it's unprofitable to attack them > <@ofrnxmr> Is monero was 100k, pos might make sense 07:40:08 it's possible to break any protection, but it's not always profitable 07:40:38 And now the question, what is the thickness of protection provided by PoW relatively to the value inside ? 07:41:17 0.6 XMR per block * 10 conf = 3k$ for all txs ? 07:41:17 :D 07:42:01 But the value of tx in the worst is whole circulation supply, so 6b$ protected by 3k$ 07:42:01 :D 07:42:46 But you can't just increase inflation to make it thicker 07:43:08 because it would mean that tx is safe to accept when whole currency was inflated by 6b$ after every tx 07:43:24 1800 for 10 blocks - which is an issue with market cap / adoption, not emission/inflation 07:43:31 it will make token completely useless, like who t f needs a token with so huge inflation ? 07:43:41 Yep 07:43:47 You don't get it 07:44:16 no matter what price of XMR in USD, reward in XMR is too small relatiley to the value of txs in the worst case 07:44:51 But PoW is still needed to have something real behind every issued token 07:45:43 if the entire mcap was being transacted, youd expect many mb blocks, which would be in the tens to hundreds of xmr in fees 07:46:00 Which is obv not enough budget = value 07:46:16 In the worst case double spending is one transaction 07:46:39 I'm thinking about protection that works in the worst case 07:46:53 since this is what everyone wants, I think 07:49:09 "tail emission" is just an illusion of protection 07:49:38 but it probably works from ideological point of view, at least as long as no one tries to contest it by doing actual attack, :D 07:50:09 Staking 50% of the supply doesnt solve this, especially when the stakers have the most to gain due to artificially low circulating liquidity 08:03:01 speak in numbers instead of "the most to gain" 08:18:52 If the coin is trading at $10, but 80% of the supply is staked / removed from circulation, then the true value of retail coins is $2 once stake is sold 08:20:41 if implemented properly it should solve it, since no matter who does the attack, it's not profitable 08:22:00 stakers are always in the profit (as long as there is demand), since they are artificially squeezing the supply 08:22:18 But nobody would want to mine X amount of a token and lock 50% of it forever, because it's the only safe condition under which it's safe to do transactions 08:24:21 The true value of a token is lower bouned by PoW 08:24:36 it's not a scam of regular PoS where there is nothing behind 08:25:08 And do you know at least one project that implemented it ? I don't think that there is any atm 08:25:45 That's why I asked kayabanerve about successful PoS, he is about to write a book on how to PoS can be implmeented 08:25:47 :D 08:27:03 It's probably abitrary number, since in reality efficient implementation of p2p network for a know set of nodes (validators) should be able to handle many more number of participants > <@ofrnxmr> And finality layer is limited to ~500 08:27:57 I don't > <@interestingband:matrix.org> And do you know at least one project that implemented it ? I don't think that there is any atm 08:28:01 https://xcancel.com/Justin_Bons/status/1958216006071189907#m, this tweet tries to say something about "security" but I don't think these numbers are right 08:28:07 and 08:28:23 that person tried to calculate security budget of xmr annually, but who t f needs it ? 08:29:09 For me the biggest red flag for anything pos/validator related is that the amount of xmr confiscated and hold by gobs is unknown. 08:29:09 Thats an immediate big NO for me 08:29:17 if security budiget should be calculated for every tx after number of confirmation required by most recepients 08:29:50 this is zcash' path to PoS https://electric-coin-company.github.io/tfl-book/introduction/a-path-to-pos-zcash.html 08:30:08 "Transitioning from Zcash NU5/NU6 PoW consensus to a PoW/PoS hybrid consensus protocol dubbed PoW+TFL." 08:30:38 @atomfried:matrix.org: It doesn't matter who owns the tokens if all of them are baked by PoW 08:30:40 their stepping stone to full PoS 08:31:21 since properly implemented slashing will take all of them from misbehaving entity 08:31:25 and if someone is ok with doing an attack that isn't profitable, then nothing can prevent that 08:32:07 @interestingband:matrix.org: Thats what govs and qubic would and are doing 08:32:31 Were not dealing with a profit driven attack 08:32:32 Nope, they are doing it for profit 08:32:38 you are wrong 08:32:40 no they arent 08:33:09 You are wrong. they lose more blocks than they would otherwise get if they mines straight up 08:33:43 Well i guess there is a "Propaganda" part of the attack, but looking at the qubic price this hasnt realy worked out and they are losing money 08:33:46 They dont have enough hashrate to consistently win their races 08:34:00 double spending will bring them more profit than all these blocks mined so far 08:34:02 it's for profit 08:34:18 or they want someone else to do double spending 08:34:21 but it's about profit 08:34:27 during their marathons, they are and will continue to be, mining at a loss 08:34:38 thats how you get fucking killed, seems too risky 08:35:10 imagine a qubic reorg fucks over a cartel 08:36:30 cartel uses more reliable ways, like gold bars long term, or physical cash short term, :D 08:37:02 @interestingband:matrix.org: Source? I made it up 08:37:31 shipping gold bars from spain to collumbia sounds like a logistical nightmare 08:37:52 moving the product is enough of a pain already 08:38:42 you transfer cash (of any currency you like) and store in gold bars (or any other physical objects that preserve their value), what isn't clear ? 08:39:46 @atomfried:matrix.org: that "propaganda" works only because there is a real possibility of doing double spending 08:42:29 @interestingband:matrix.org: Maybe the part where you ship billions in cash? 09:14:39 It's the most important innvotaion of cryptocurrency: decentralized consensus between untrusted entities that is resistant to external attacks; everything else is much easier to do > <@ofrnxmr> I don't 09:15:52 once you can coop with untrusted entities remotely in a safe it's a real threat to any govt 09:19:18 @atomfried:matrix.org: it depends on the distance and amount they need to transfer at once; But I just wanted to say that they will use any other more reliable way of value transafering than cryptocurrncies banned by govts 09:20:22 1 million $ looks transferrable by a person, :D 09:32:37 Before I thought that cryptography is the hardest part, but it's not. Well, for some people it's stil hard, :D > <@interestingband:matrix.org> It's the most important innvotaion of cryptocurrency: decentralized consensus between untrusted entities that is resistant to external attacks; everything else is much easier to do 09:35:34 And consensus isn't "finality layer" since it must be deeply integrated into everything in order to work properly 09:48:29 ffs 09:48:30 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/EUNcdYZmlAiRidBOveqhHzDd.png (image.png) 09:48:45 can we NOT APPROVE KNOWN PHISHING OPERATIONS 09:59:56 other scams are available https://gist.github.com/plowsof/b2cd506336e72ab92fbe242d8c26ebb4 10:50:04 jeffro256 full-time development 2025Q3 is now fully funded! https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/jeffro256-full-time-2025Q3.html @luigi1111 11:17:45 nice 11:19:24 https://ccs.getmonero.org/funding-required/ 11:27:07 overfunded again 11:35:54 +0.998474383137 11:36:40 can I get my donation back? 11:43:01 what happens with funds in excess? 11:46:15 we have an accurate tally of the overfundings somewhere but the current amount listed here https://github.com/plowsof/scrape_ccs_fr/commit/419435ad3fd866224a0c724f999b38feb18d2a87 11:47:24 in some cases , a contributors overfunding has been returned to them - one case was where funding took a long time and they required help. another was simply decided to be awarded to the proposer upon completion 11:48:00 they currently get stolen (ccs wallet incident) or saved for a rainy day (jetfund) 11:54:06 i like the prospect of saving it for future thieves, very considerate 12:01:06 give em to me and ill double them within 2 years, ong ong 12:07:45 pumpxmr lol 13:54:26 plowsof: 13:54:35 do i get a commission on my jet fund contributions 13:54:39 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/cwOtPGFhcjHckQUxQcWIuyCw.png (image.png) 13:55:06 of course 13:55:10 these guys posted AI slop comments, begged for mercy claiming their "intern" did it and was "fired" and then kept spamming ai slop comments (multiple per minute) 13:56:27 I don't mind if they pay 1 XMR per AI slop comment from now on 13:59:08 +1 14:08:23 Yeah. You need to respond and say that "sorry, my intern was incorrect. The cost is 10xmr for a third chance, and you may post AI comments at a rate of 1xmr per comment" 14:08:23 Lmao 14:10:05 we have merch and hardware available if you need to upsell them for extra commission 14:10:48 its nice that "our intern did it and is fired" is a universal excuse now 14:11:47 intern was replaced with AI :D 14:14:01 fixed "sorry, my intern sent you misleading directions. She's been fired. The cost is 10xmr for a third chance, and you may post AI comments at a rate of 1xmr per comment" 19:53:09 No