00:38:08 <n1oc> [CCS Proposals] Lee Clagett opened merge request #654: VTNerd 2026 Q2 Proposal https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/654
00:45:52 <xmr-pr> [css-proposals] vtnerd opened pull request #654: VTNerd 2026 Q2 Proposal
00:45:53 <xmr-pr> > https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/654
15:38:18 <br-m> <sgp_> Opportunity for feedback from you all. I'm considering setting the default new seed type from Polyseed to BIP39 15-word. The reason being that to fully support Serai with a good user experience, I want the user to be able to do it with a single wallet, not multiple different wallet seeds. This should lead to significant UX imp [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/_Pzhiu8KbWVHMXdj ]
15:38:26 <br-m> <sgp_> (in Skylight Wallet)
15:43:01 <br-m> <rbrunner7> Standards are something wonderful. Can't have enough of them :) No, seriously, my investigation into Polyseed has shown me that we have a pretty nice standardization now of Monero wallet apps around that seed type, which is nice. If you deviate from that for SkyWallet, you might well become an outlier.
15:45:56 <br-m> <rbrunner7> And about security, for me, it's all about the almost total inability of the human mind to really comprehend really big numbers. Polyseed encodes 150 bits for the seed, and for me that's all the security you need plus plenty more.
15:46:31 <br-m> <rbrunner7> Somewhere tevador explains that somebody proved that you can break any Ed25519 secret key with arount 2^128 or so operations.
15:47:37 <br-m> <sgp_> fwiw I love Polyseed, the challenge is that I need both a Monero and Serai derivation in a single seed. Is there a way to do that with Polyseed without doing something stupid (it's always possible to do something stupid)
15:48:04 <br-m> <rbrunner7> What is a "Serai derivation"?
15:50:02 <br-m> <monerobull:matrix.org> serai wallet 
15:50:23 <br-m> <monerobull:matrix.org> sgp is talking about going from polyseed to serai wallet is what i assume 
15:51:02 <br-m> <rbrunner7> You mean a Serai wallet needs some secret key(s), and the question is how to get those from a Polyseed?
15:52:27 <br-m> <sgp_> equivalent to bip-44, yeah
15:52:40 <br-m> <sgp_> polyseed seems to actively discourage this: "To prevent the seed from being accidentally used with a different cryptocurrency, a coin flag is XORed with the second word after the checksum is calculated. Checksum validation will fail unless the wallet software XORs the same coin flag with the second word when restoring."
15:54:39 <br-m> <jpk68:matrix.org> @sgp_: Are you planning to integrate Serai into the wallet, or is it just for compatibility?
15:55:09 <br-m> <sgp_> @jpk68:matrix.org: direct integration
15:55:24 <br-m> <jbabb:cypherstack.com> > <@sgp_> Opportunity for feedback from you all. I'm considering setting the default new seed type from Polyseed to BIP39 15-word. The reason being that to fully support Serai with a good user experience, I want the user to be able to do it with a single wallet, not multiple different wallet seeds. This should lead to sign [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/zc2gi-8KTVB1ODVT ]
15:55:24 <br-m> <jbabb:cypherstack.com> I understand losing embedded restore height isn't a dealbreaker for a light wallet but I really, really like my embedded restore heights
15:55:37 <br-m> <sgp_> me too :)
15:56:02 <br-m> <jbabb:cypherstack.com> is this primarily because serai involves btc and eth wallets and those aren't supported in polyseed currently?
15:56:40 <br-m> <jbabb:cypherstack.com> I have been trying to see if something like smirk's bip39-to-multiwallet protocol would be worthwhile to support elsewhere
15:58:10 <br-m> <sgp_> the immediate need is: suppose a user adds Monero liquidity. How can they remove it? With a Serai wallet with the same seed info
15:58:55 <br-m> <jbabb:cypherstack.com> it occurs to me that serai still has time to switch their seed/wallet format around.  tho I have to doublecheck what limitations serai-dex/serai actually has on that
15:59:30 <br-m> <rbrunner7> As far as I know, the world of multicoin wallets that have something like a "master seed" and somehow derive a seed for each currency is an utter mess and a world of incompatibility. About the opposite of what you want from your seeds, if you ask me.
16:01:32 <br-m> <sgp_> fwiw bip39/bip44/slip44 seem to work relatively well, even if they're not 100% ideal in every way (e.g. not supporting a restore height). Cake nudges you to make new Monero seeds in a "wallet group" (bip39)
16:01:37 <br-m> <rbrunner7> I don't know, maybe I am just too old for this. Seems to me that if you use a good password manager to store your seeds, and IMHO you should do that, how does it matter how many seeds you have, up to some reasonable limit of course.
16:03:17 <br-m> <jbabb:cypherstack.com> I'm not offering these as alternative proposals but I just so happened to have been looking into how cake handles bip39 "exodus-style" (their words) seeds vs. smirk and here are some references
16:03:24 <br-m> <jbabb:cypherstack.com> https://github.com/cake-tech/cake_wallet/blob/dev/cw_monero/lib/bip39_seed.dart#L11-L22
16:03:31 <br-m> <jbabb:cypherstack.com> https://github.com/Such-Software/smirk-extension/blob/main/src/lib/hd.ts#L120-L174
16:04:32 <br-m> <jpk68:matrix.org> XKCD 927
16:04:34 <br-m> <rbrunner7> So there are multiple different ways how to "handle BIP39", right?
16:04:36 <br-m> <rbrunner7> Foot, where are you, I want to shoot you :)
16:04:40 <br-m> <jbabb:cypherstack.com> but as to this question, I'll have to look into this and see.  gut check is no, not without something stupid > <@sgp_> fwiw I love Polyseed, the challenge is that I need both a Monero and Serai derivation in a single seed. Is there a way to do that with Polyseed without doing something stupid (it's always possible to do something stupid)
16:05:01 <br-m> <sgp_> @rbrunner7: yeah, but in this case there's one "clear" way to do it and many bad ways :)
16:05:38 <br-m> <jbabb:cypherstack.com> @rbrunner7: to be fair, smirk isn't a great example, it's just fun.  entirely vibecoded afaict.
16:05:57 <br-m> <sgp_> fwiw Cake does it the sensible way, just with 12-word bip39 seeds not 15-word
17:15:52 <xmr-pr> [meta] rbrunner7 opened issue #1353: Monero Tech Meeting #161 - Monday, 2026-03-16, 18:00 UTC
17:15:53 <xmr-pr> > https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1353
19:09:21 <br-m> <arnoldnakamura:3dns.eu> Hey all — just a heads up for anyone looking for EUR ↔ XMR P2P options post-LocalMonero: I run Cash by Mail (EU-wide) and Face-to-Face in SW Germany. Active Haveno offers on both RetoSwap and DawnSwap. 683 trades on the old platforms, 100% feedback. DM or Telegram @arnoldnakamura. Happy to help newcomers with the process too.
19:10:57 <br-m> <ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @monerobull:monero.social
19:11:20 <br-m> <monerobull:matrix.org> @arnoldnakamura:3dns.eu: bro we warned you
19:11:45 <br-m> <ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Spammed like 10 more rooms agaib
19:12:10 <plowsof> Waiting for the irc account to say "wow thats alot!"
19:12:13 <br-m> <ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Monerotopia, basicswap, feather, p2pool, etc etc etc
19:13:26 <br-m> <ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Thanks for the feedback @plowsof:matrix.org
19:13:38 <plowsof> 😆
19:42:58 <br-m> <sneedlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> @monerobull:matrix.org: now continuing in #monero-events:monero.social
20:02:51 <br-m> <321bob321> Diego
20:04:41 <br-m> <diego:cypherstack.com> @321bob321: Yes?
20:05:06 <br-m> <321bob321> @sneedlewoods_xmr:matrix.org: 👆