06:39:53 MK7 operated as a loss too, as I understand it. A small one, but a loss nonetheless. > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> the translation of this into reality is 06:39:53 The non-profit framing is focused on the fact that any surplus from prior events would have to be forwarded to the next event. 06:39:53 Surpluses are why TE now has a 155 XMR to give to whomever runs the next event. Whether that surplus stems from CCS or sponsoring, or ticket streams, doesn't really matter. What matters is that any surplus is used for further events, for the community.[... more lines follow, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/xvm0ppQLc0tEdmVD ] 06:40:38 100xmr of that surplus came from ccs 06:41:04 and that 155xmr was not used for mk7 06:41:34 so, if mk7 operated at a loss, than what is the fud about profit? 06:41:41 Personally, I do care. But if the community want to hand MK to a company that's fine as well. > <@321bob321> Tbh do people care aslong as they get there conference 06:41:42 Personally, I think it was clear that running it as a "community event" wasn't sustainable either, given the attrition rate of volunteer organising teams. 06:42:08 essentially, youre saying that orangefren should have broke even by pulling funds from TE 06:42:47 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Honestly, I don't know. There is a lot I also don't understand about this whole situation 06:42:48 and your framing is wrong 06:43:01 Yeah, I don't know the answer to this either. > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> and that 155xmr was not used for mk7 06:43:04 te didnt forward surplus to orangefren 06:43:08 orangefren did it all on his own 06:43:33 and now that hes set to do it again, ajs wants the funds sent to generalfund 06:43:47 even though OF isnt looking to touch them 06:44:06 I think it wasn't clear whether we should/could just have given the funds to another organiser/and or there wasn't time to decide this until after "the vote", which we agreed should happen after MK7, so people could fairly appraise the success of MK7 > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> essentially, youre saying that orangefren should have broke even by pulling funds from TE 06:44:07 and correction, i thjink you emant mk6 06:44:11 mk7 hasnt happened yet 06:44:24 meant* 06:44:48 Oh yeah, sorry. Whatever the most previous one was 06:45:04 ajs wanted to operate mk7 under his own llc, and pay himself 40k (120xmr?). what is the difference between that and and orangefren operating at no profit 06:45:21 We couldn't decide (or didn't have time) whether to give available funds to a relatively unknown organiser. 06:45:43 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: I can't answer this, as I don't know enough about it 06:45:48 except that ajs 120xmr would come from te, and orangefrens zero would come from sponsors and ticket sales 06:45:57 the votw was a week ago 06:46:12 whether to pay ajs 40k to use his llc, or to allow orangefren to oraganize the next one 06:46:48 there was never a discussion or plan for orangefren to take ownership of monerokon, he simply hosted mk6 and was voted to host mk7 06:47:39 whether its te, ajs llc, or orangefrens llc, there is no difference. as as i posted on the issue, ajs himself has said numerous times that anyone could host a mk 06:48:21 https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1417#issuecomment-4900607823 this this screenshot and the one below it. 06:48:41 sorry for the huge screenshot 06:49:14 I think a lot of aspects weren't clear, and I think this was felt by many people. 06:50:27 I think the miscommunication probably influenced a lot of opinions/votes. The only thing that was clear to me was the existence of a proposed governance framework, and orangfren continuing with MK7. The rest was pretty opaque. 06:50:33 the one thing that was clead: mk6 happened. another thing that was clear: ajs said he didnt want to be involved unless some other org was taking liability. another thing that was clear, was that ajs had said numerous times that ANYONE could host a monerokon of their own 06:50:46 As one of the custodians of MK funds I can answer this question, post MK6 we tranfered the proceeds of the ticket sales to @orangefren:matrix.org , leaving extra amounts (supporter tickets) in MK's wallet. > <@midipoet:matrix.org> Yeah, I don't know the answer to this either. 06:50:46 For preciseness, following the payment of the storage unit the current balance of MK wallet is just shy of 150 XMR. 06:50:51 I don't think it's bad to have a wider discussion here, even just to clarify things better 06:51:41 i dont think theres anything to clarify 06:51:52 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: I don't think you should make ajs take all the flak for this though. I think ajs is standing up for a principle, not for himself, which is how many people are framing this 06:52:03 the price of tea in china has nothing to do with whom is hosting the next kon 06:52:12 since anyone can host one, it doesnt even need to be approved 06:52:28 ajs is taking flak because he is being a bitch 06:52:43 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: If the funds are MKs though, it does matter to some degree. 06:52:53 Though I don't think the argument here is about money 06:53:07 <321bob321> i dont even know the whole storey 06:53:14 It's about the continued "ownership" of MK (including figuring out what that means) 06:53:16 he initially gracefully lost the vote and agreed to amicably transfer / give access to socials etc to orangefren to allow a smooth transition for mk7 06:53:20 then he ragequit the room 06:53:23 @321bob321: I don't think anyone really does 06:53:32 then he came back, kicked orangefren, and posted on twittte 06:53:42 @midipoet:matrix.org: it means abosultely nothing 06:53:48 its not trademarked, and not owned 06:54:17 its just a bitch crying because he expected a landslide victory in his favor, where he profited, and his llc was chosen 06:54:26 instead, someone elses llc was chosen, and he wont accept that 06:54:42 its really that simple 06:54:48 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: I don't think it's helpful calling people names like bitch and retard. 06:54:57 I mean you could, but it's pretty childish 06:54:58 he wants to make it about some corporate takeover, but orangefren isnt taking over anything 06:55:12 @midipoet:matrix.org: im not trying to be helpful 06:55:24 <321bob321> orangefren said that didnt want to do next years ? 06:55:26 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Oh yes. The wise ofrn 06:55:31 How could I forget! 06:55:40 ty for remembering 06:55:53 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: You're definitely special 06:56:39 not as special as professional who revokes access to the socials because he lost a vote, 06:56:50 then tries to act maliciously 06:57:06 Honestly, ofrn, I don't think ajs is acting on his own behalf 06:57:23 he rejoin the room and kicked orangefren as soon as he rejoined 06:57:32 I know what happened. 06:57:34 nobody can make him dance 06:57:40 nobody can make him sent out tweets from the monerkon twitter acct 06:57:44 <321bob321> as long as i can keep converting video to audiio 06:58:02 what happened, midi? 06:58:06 enlighten us 06:58:32 Look, maybe it's easier to just wait until the community meeting and then see what is said there about moving forward and what the perspectives are from people that turn up 06:58:43 why? 06:59:02 the governance idea was nack'd by those involved with monerkon 06:59:06 I don't have the answer to that 06:59:20 I would happily let someone take MK over, as it's a pain in the ass! 06:59:49 REGARDLESS of what anybody says at the meeting, orangefren it 100% within his right to host as many monerkons as he likes. he doesnt need permission 06:59:51 who that is, probably does matter though, and probably deserves a wider community discussion 07:00:03 he was selected. so he has permission that he doesnt need 07:00:17 he doesnt WANT to take over mk 07:00:21 he just feels like hosting another one 07:00:28 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: ? 07:02:10 https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-community/20260706#c689457 07:02:40 that fud is just ajs mad that he lost 07:02:44 <321bob321> ima going to go back to my homelab 07:03:36 as long as monerokon is a "community" event, ANYBODY can host one 07:04:37 ajs is acting like he is doug, and cake took over monerotopia. this is monero community, and monerokon, and orangefren is an active member of this community and the events/monerkon workfroup 07:05:33 ajs has llc 07:05:33 orangefren has llc 07:05:33 whats the difference between which one runs the show? aside from the face that OF pulled off a good conference, alone, in 6 months, and didnt burn himself out doing it? 07:06:12 made no excuses, did all of the legwork scouting venues, no red tape, no inflated expenses, didnt ask the community to pick up his slack 07:07:26 ajs doesnt have a path to victory here 07:07:38 his bid and governance were rejected in full. 07:08:47 even if you reject orangefren, the his idea was DOA and was voted out unanimously. i dont see him offering up an alternative solution. 07:09:02 its "if i cant win, nobody can!" meltdown 07:09:32 where was this nonsense for mk6? did the sky fall when orangefren did mk6? 07:09:39 if not, why is the sky falling now? 07:09:54 To be fair, I think the alternative was the Governance Framework, which attempted (as I understand it) to set out a broad framework for organising the event in a decentralised manner > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> even if you reject orangefren, the his idea was DOA and was voted out unanimously. i dont see him offering up an alternative solution. 07:10:02 But maybe that's not important to you 07:10:22 decentralized by having only 1 staff member paid 40k to organize it? 07:11:06 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: I don't think that's a fair representation of the situation. I questioned whether others would be paid and it was said they could/would be 07:11:07 that idea was DOA 07:11:24 where is the money coming from? 07:11:35 Other people also questioned how much the lead organiser (if that was the term) should be paid 07:11:41 does the conference generate 100k? 07:12:20 ofrnr, as I said, maybe instead of asking questions that nobody here at the moment has answers for, just wait until the meeting 07:12:29 I don't think that's unreasonable and ask 07:12:33 has an ajs lead monerkon ever touched even 50k from sponsors? 07:13:29 becasue, if youre asking for 40k, im sure there must be some way that you plan to raise that money, without sayind generalfund donating to ccs 07:14:51 iirc, msvb made like 20k at one of the kons for merch that we purchased off of him using ccs money 07:16:02 Not the idea by itself, but the specific proposal. People found details that didn't add up, and considering the document requires a 75% majority for amendments we kinda want to get it right on first try > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> the governance idea was nack'd by those involved with monerkon 07:16:55 meanwhile all of the time, effort, and money that went into TE is just being discarded now 07:17:21 (incontext to getting it right the first try) 07:26:07 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: I don't think so. I think the community should repurpose TE for other community related things if MK is no longer its focus. The legal entity should be repurposed, not the 150XMR, just to be clear. 07:40:21 Why is monerokon no loner its focus, midi? 07:40:24 Longer* 07:40:30 (btw, im just kicking the can now. I dont really have much more to say on the matter. incredible waste of everyones time) 07:40:59 I said "if". Did you miss that? 07:41:40 No. As i said, im just kicking the can 07:42:44 Ive lost interest 12:06:19 [CCS Proposals] PANAGIOTIS POLLIS opened merge request #686: Add new fileMonero LWS Observatory — Public LWS Health Monitoring https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/686 12:15:20 i read "Parelni Polis" 14:26:55 I wish I had more Paralelni Polis stickers. 14:57:29 are there pics of MK6 available anywhere? 15:09:31 I don't see what's stopping anyone from putting together a CCS for organizing a monerokon with whatever fee they deem necessary 17:27:08 geonic: Orange organized MK6 without any CCS. So it's not really an issue. While the use of MoneroKon as a term is creative-commons / public domain; the only real issue at hand, is control of the existing domain/socials for MoneroKon. 17:29:28 The framing of "profit vs non," is a red herring. ajs wanted to be programmatically paid $40k for organizing (aka, personal profit), whereas Orange accepted a small loss this year, and didnt ask anything from the community. 17:29:28 Thus, the only question we should be focused on, is stewardship/control of the existing domain/socials. 17:31:36 is there a doc with a breakdown of expenses ins/outs for MK6? 17:37:45 plowsof: MK6 was done under OF's LLC 17:37:57 But @orangefren:matrix.org might be able to help you. 17:38:27 "small loss" without citation ok 17:38:44 Pretty sure the small loss was on BFF's side. 17:39:21 @bawdyanarchist:matrix.org: I'd like to clarify. We did not make a loss. As @comradeblin:matrix.org wrote the BFF side made a small loss (1.6k). MK6 was profitable 17:40:19 (: 17:40:51 BawdyAnarchist ^ 17:40:57 Sorry for that. That was my mistake 17:41:02 I will edit my comment above 17:43:40 more or less than 40k profit? 17:43:44 😆 17:45:13 plowsof: zero profit taken from the CCS. 17:45:49 That's the point. That's the difference. Someone willing to take on the risk of entrepreneurship, or someone demanding a payout from the community, regardless. 17:46:56 plowsof: It was less than the 43k ajs proposed. This is OF's words. 18:02:21 > <@bawdyanarchist:matrix.org> The framing of "profit vs non," is a red herring. ajs wanted to be programmatically paid $40k for organizing (aka, personal profit), whereas Orange accepted a small loss this year, and didnt ask anything from the community. 18:02:21 exactly. Ajs wants a higher cut then OF, yet takes on much less risk. """technically""" it's a non profit if you spend the money on your own wage. Ajs' proposal is not morally superior 18:07:06 @comradeblin:matrix.org: And was entirely earned. 18:08:11 monerokon was never supposed to be a slavejob (hence the 43k), and you can look to the profits msvb had pulled in (all?) years prior to TE 18:08:52 People have a short term memory, ?ut accounting prior to TE was essentially "truat me bro, food cost $50 per day and my plane ticket was the max 2k" 18:09:38 when TE ran conf and ajs didnt want to be included, iirc, it was the first time monerokon came out profitable 18:10:20 @ofrnxmr: iirc 18:13:06 And the msvb issue was never that he made money, it was that 50% of the CCS funds was used to pay high markups on his merch 18:14:52 Also the double standard is strange. If orangefren loat money on the conference, was he going to pull funds out of TE? If i recall correctly, the answer was always no. 18:15:18 When TE funds the conference, TE keeps the profits 18:20:22 Like bawdy said, the question of privatization and profit vs non is a red herring 18:21:09 If TE makes a profit, TE keeps the funds. It ajs makes a profit.. who are we kidding, ajs would make sure to spend it all 18:21:38 Intentionally limiting sponsorships, inflating costs, and whatever other waste he can thing of 18:21:48 Rentinf water coolers 18:22:09 Flying to the venue 9 times a year, eating $50 per day in food 18:22:52 (thats not a fat joke, thats a real number from an invoice he gave years ago for a week long stay in prague) 18:23:24 Idk if food out there is that expensive but thats 1500/month in food 18:23:41 Can feed a family of 9 with that 18:24:57 if orangefren billed the same way, im sure he'd be in the red too 18:26:18 if you eat at restaurants only in prague especially in the Second Culture area you can easily come to around 30-50$ per day for food, not trying to justify it but yeah does make sense 18:26:59 we don't know anything about orangefren's transactions 18:27:42 @wvrld:matrix.org: Thats irresponsible use of conference ccs money 18:27:49 ..imo 18:28:19 i dont know if the profit number is after personal wage 18:28:48 @ofrnxmr: yeah ofc it is, i am not saying it isnt, he should have probable ate some ramen only, ofc, but like i am saying that this number probably isnt inflated. it is irresponsible, thats true 18:29:25 it only matters what people who attend the event and contribute think, and they have voted 18:30:15 plowsof: I believe the speakers and spinsors of mk6 were pleased with mk6 18:30:47 but this one is probably the worst thing of all the things you mentioned here, its concerning > <@ofrnxmr> And the msvb issue was never that he made money, it was that 50% of the CCS funds was used to pay high markups on his merch 18:30:50 I know that @crz:matrix.org dr kap and @no_2:matrix.org went, and they enjoyed it 18:31:05 iirc Majesticbank had complaints about a previous monerokon , so theres that 18:31:05 @wvrld:matrix.org: This was pre-TE 18:31:41 damn I have run out of popcorn :( 18:31:57 Before TE, accounting was largely "trust me bro", and everyone (exaggeration) except for monerobull was billing at the max 18:32:55 Changes were made, such as the max you can have covered for flights depends on where you are flying from 18:34:19 yes, everything is a process 18:34:40 only good will come out of this 18:35:04 I agree. 18:36:24 orangefren had access to the monrokon twitter for mk6, but his access was revokes and ajs used the account to spread fud 18:36:49 plowsof: The people voted and their vote was intentionally ignored 18:36:52 If you look on the githuh issue, fuzzstone shows that many people had their access revoked to various sociaks 18:37:38 PERSONALLY i think this behavior in itself, is reason for ajs to remove himself as custodian of monerokon assets 18:38:05 This doesnt mean that orangefren should own them. Far from it. It just means that ajs isnt fit for such a position 18:38:45 vote was 7 for OF, 0 for ajs and 5 abstain 18:39:01 and others attending did not vote 18:39:57 did they actively abstain, or they juat didnt vote? 18:40:16 abstains actively voted 18:40:26 was one of the choices 18:40:33 Ok 18:41:05 Words are cheap, I much prefer observing how people behave to judge there character. I abstained on Saturday, but now I for sure know who I'd vote for if we do it again 18:52:15 https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1417#issuecomment-4906957624 << i think bF is being fed bad info 18:52:27 He seems to think that orangefren, the swap service, is taking over monerokon 18:52:27 > A handful of individuals deciding to take all the corresponding assets for themselves and run with it is quite insulting to every other Monero contributors past and present 18:53:01 Cc @binaryfate 18:54:23 Orangefren, the person and community member, is organizing a conference. Not taking ownership of the assets, conference, name, etc. 18:58:27 For those that aren't part of the discussion happening in the MoneroKon room, I think we're slowly converging on a reasonable compromise. 18:58:27 1. A for-profit venture shouldnt have control over the creative-commons MoneroKon domain, socials, and infra. 18:58:27 2. A trusted custodian should handle access to those resources, for those organizing MK event(s). They would be bound by good faith to follow the will of the community. 18:58:27 3. Legal forcing (as in a non-profit corporation) acting as the custodian does not protect the resources, because litigation turnaround is too long, and a pivot would be required if the custodian turns malicious[... more lines follow, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/6NvFu5QLeWJreDJv ] 19:05:03 are there pictures available of this conference everyone is talking about :) 19:08:23 geonic: Orange organized MK6 without any CCS. So it's not really an issue <—- it seems that one of the issues being discussed is the fee ajs quoted for his services. if he wants to organize a MoneroKon and have the community fund/back it, nothing is stopping him from opening a CCS. we don’t need to vote on who can 19:08:23 organize a conference. the social/web access is a separate issue 19:10:13 geonic: The most important content we have is of course the talks: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsSYUeVwrHBmzJAlb0yyCS7CgaHC1ut4j 19:13:01 You guys had a no photo policy like previous editions of Monerokon, correct? 19:13:18 Yes 19:14:43 what was the venue like? can someone who attended Prague as well as this one give us a comparison? 19:19:34 It was just as good if not better due to its very central location. Stages were good. Venue had several bars, great sitting/sponsor area. 19:21:38 If you are an architecture nerd (i'm not) or appreciate soviet brutalist architecture for some reason, the building itself is historic and really fancy lol 19:23:18 how was the attendance compared to Prague? 19:24:36