00:54:07 <selsta> .merge+ 8052
00:54:08 <xmr-pr> Added
12:40:19 <afungible[m]> Hi guys, I saw the presentation from Paul Shapiro, dated June, 2019. And he quoted the following (adding screenshots):
12:40:50 * afungible[m] uploaded an image: (182KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/QEqiUwOMbiSZKgZIwHgJUpdj/Screenshot_20220126-132007.png >
12:41:46 * afungible[m] uploaded an image: (233KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/TPBFhqqAwAabSVelDTXCdpgg/Screenshot_20220126-132146.png >
12:41:59 * afungible[m] uploaded an image: (144KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/LNyxHHiNwxtAFwZoltYyWbII/Screenshot_20220126-132428.png >
12:43:44 <afungible[m]> I'm basically starting from scratch. Had a browse through the codebase, ended up scratching my head.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/a943378fe7cf74e32ef2dff07ad3fd59518e80fe)
13:11:49 <UkoeHB> afungible[m]: the answer to all that is basically 'no', unfortunately
13:20:53 <UkoeHB> Although for the last one, endogenic (paul) has this to say https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/8157#issuecomment-1021530383
13:42:16 <afungible[m]> Thanks! I read the full comment by Paul, basically "code management & sustainibility" being his top priority (not sure, if that syncs with other prio' as well?). Wallet3 implementation (refactor of wallet2). Also, that other devs are on-board. I'd be happy, in my capacity to contribute to this cause, shld they need extra hands.
13:43:31 <afungible[m]> Moreover, the questions are posted above "are important" to be addressed now/near future, coz it unnecessarily creates friction for new 'devs' wanting to join forces. And if any experienced dev quits for any reason, it'd become all the hard to maintain Monero codebase (given a 'No' was sounded to all my questions above). 
13:45:03 <endogenic> afungible[m]: i'm paul btw
13:46:18 <endogenic> wallet3 should not be a targer
13:46:20 <endogenic> target
13:46:31 <endogenic> wallet2 factor can be done in steps
13:46:46 <endogenic> interfaces can and likely should remain the same at first
13:47:04 <afungible[m]> +1 nice to e-meet you. Thanks to your presentation. Got some bckgnd to work with.
13:48:43 <endogenic> likewise. let me know what you end up deciding to do if you dont mind so we dont redo work
13:54:49 <afungible[m]> Thx. I was trying to reverse engineer the monero code base (for first time). Had read most of MasteringMonero a year ago, thght will help me get on board. Currently, collating any docs/resources to help me thrg?! so I'm in the scanning phase, nothing concrete as yet.
13:56:26 <afungible[m]> Just lacking docs/getting started for devs guide or smthing, reverse engg. is often time consuming.
13:58:01 <wernervasquez[m]> afungible[m]: Especially with the style of code that C/C++ seems to be associated with.
14:00:30 <wernervasquez[m]> I remember trying to figure out what some function did when I first dove into Monero. I feel like I must have gone through at least 7 levels of functions which only passed their parameters to other functions before I got to what it actually did.
14:01:03 <endogenic> see vtnerd/monero-lws
14:01:12 <endogenic> for a second reference on scanninf
14:01:18 <endogenic> it's a github repo
14:02:09 <endogenic> also a great case for why wallet2 needs pure functions pulled out. which we'll submit the proposal for soon
14:02:35 <UkoeHB> afungible[m]: there is zero to monero 2 as well
14:03:03 <afungible[m]> > <@afungible:monero.social> I'm basically starting from scratch. Had a browse through the codebase, ended up scratching my head.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/a33c20d6e1304368389b2b76f66faa00f8c99f96)
14:03:30 <endogenic> bbl
14:13:10 <fictionless[m]> Hi! Is it possible to request from monero-wallet-rpc how many blocks are synced of how many? couldn't find such a method. For example wallet cli shows this status while syncing Height 2528519 / 2545695
14:41:24 <moneromooo> Yes, get_info, height and target_height. target_height is only applicable if syncing.
14:42:27 <moneromooo> afungible[m]: bear in mind that many people have a tendency to want to rewrite stuff how they like it best, with varying amounts of rationalization, and you'll likely end up in the same situation wrt future contributors, just with a different codebase.
14:42:44 <moneromooo> ie, thy'll want to rewrite yours.
14:45:05 <moneromooo> (and this is not a "don't do it", since I'm not contributing much anymore atm)
14:56:34 <hyc> it's C++ style, not C style. The multiple layers of same-named functions with slightly different signatures. multiple layers of BS before you get to something that actually does real work
14:59:08 <afungible[m]> Agreed moneromooo  I call it perhaps, the (coder's) psychology ;)
14:59:08 <afungible[m]> Was trying to understand the modus operandi w.r.t. our codebase. Perhaps, you could point me out to some reference?
14:59:08 <afungible[m]> 1) do we follow a 'coding standard/guideline' (that all devs have agreed upon) or just check in the peer-review/testnet that things are okay? Coz. everyone will have their own format/style which isn't necessarily good. Could help with uniformity in the future.
14:59:08 <afungible[m]> 2) How is (code) architecture agreed upon?
14:59:48 <hyc> the golden rule in all open source projects is adopt the existing style of any file you're modifying
15:01:09 <fictionless[m]> <moneromooo> "Yes, get_info, height and target..." <- unfortunately not true https://github.com/monero-project/monero/blob/master/src/wallet/wallet_rpc_server.h
15:01:09 <fictionless[m]> rpc_wallet commands are more limited in comparison to cli wallet :(
15:02:14 <moneromooo> Oh I'm sorry, I was thinking about daemon.
15:02:40 <moneromooo> The RPC wallet will not listen to the RPC port before it's finished syncing.
15:02:55 <moneromooo> Though I guess if you rescan, this would happen... Feel free to add it.
15:09:01 <fictionless[m]> <moneromooo> "The RPC wallet will not listen..." <- good to know! it means rpc wallet is not suitable for the custom UI if I can't call it until it's synced 🤔
15:35:46 <spirobel[m]> <fictionless[m]> "good to know! it means rpc..." <- you can start the wallet without setting a daemon then it will respond asap like ``` ./monero-wallet-rpc --rpc-bind-port 18082 --wallet-dir . --disable-rpc-login --log-level 4 --non-interactive
15:35:46 <spirobel[m]> ```
15:36:04 <spirobel[m]> s/./monero-wallet-rpc//, s/--rpc-bind-port/```/, s/18082 --wallet-dir . --disable-rpc-login --log-level 4 --non-interactive//
15:36:16 <spirobel[m]>  * you can start the wallet without setting a daemon then it will respond asap like 
15:36:16 <spirobel[m]> ```
15:36:16 <spirobel[m]> ./monero-wallet-rpc --rpc-bind-port 18082 --wallet-dir . --disable-rpc-login --log-level 4 --non-interactive ```
15:36:30 <spirobel[m]>  * you can start the wallet without setting a daemon then it will respond asap like
15:36:30 <spirobel[m]> ```
15:36:30 <spirobel[m]> ./monero-wallet-rpc --rpc-bind-port 18082 --wallet-dir . --disable-rpc-login --log-level 4 --non-interactive ```
15:36:36 <spirobel[m]>  * you can start the wallet without setting a daemon then it will respond asap like
15:36:36 <spirobel[m]> ```
15:36:36 <spirobel[m]> ./monero-wallet-rpc --rpc-bind-port 18082 --wallet-dir . --disable-rpc-login --log-level 4 --non-interactive 
15:36:36 <spirobel[m]> ```
15:36:53 <localmonero06> use a pastebin or something.
15:37:50 <spirobel[m]> localmonero06: true...using markdown codeblocks in element is a bit of a pain 😅
15:39:47 <spirobel[m]> https://pastebin.com/dujDpQsH
15:41:23 <spirobel[m]> I reposted it as a github gist. https://gist.github.com/spirobel/82efcbd68465bb919c874a581d2cb4b7 pastebin might get lost
15:43:04 <moneromooo> Good idea :)
15:46:12 <spirobel[m]> I also use twitter as a notetaking platform to collect these kind of things for later reference ( no political bickering or other distractions on there 😆) https://twitter.com/spirobel/status/1486363999994187780 
16:59:20 <wernervasquez[m]> hyc: I am trying to think of a realistic use case where someone needs to read the miner reward from the blockchain and did not previously calculate it (and thus, should have stored the result locally)
17:01:17 <wernervasquez[m]> I do not have a comprehensive understanding or monero, but it seems to me like that is redundant info at this point.
17:03:47 <moneromooo> I suppose it can be used as a sanity check, but it is indeed unnecessary I think. It *might* save you some calcs when popping the block.
18:04:35 <fictionless[m]> <spirobel[m]> "I reposted it as a github gist..." <- Yeah, good idea, I'll try it. I'm wondering though why isn't it possible to create a wallet using RPC.
18:05:33 <moneromooo> Bump log level, it should tell you why. Hopefully.
19:08:10 <xmrscott[m]> I strongly suggest and ask either carrington  or Rucknium  moderate the v15 meeting on 2022/01/29. Rotten and his alts such as localmonero are currently banned on Matrix for consistent behavior that violates Libera.chat policy (e.g. publicly posting private info to try to doxx people).
19:08:16 <xmrscott[m]> Thus any comments he posts as a meeting mod won't show up in Matrix in turn making it hard for Matrix users to see what the present agenda item is, etc.
19:08:34 <xmrscott[m]> Furthermore, he has a recent history of altering monero-event logs to suit his own interests and thus can't be trusted to leave a mission critical meeting set of logs untouched.
19:08:58 * xmrscott[m] uploaded an image: (50KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/PRoaKxcSmFctvXfHnhCZzBqw/image.png >
19:09:30 <xmrscott[m]> Both carrington and Rucknium have general, long chat history in -dev that pre-dates 2022/01/19 as well as moderating -dev meetings: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aclosed+%22Monero+Dev+Meeting%22
19:10:16 <xmrscott[m]> To say nothing of carrington and Rucknium technical and moral merits that are more applicable in -dev than rotten's. Nor other parts of rotten's behaviour that has netted him bans in things like the Monero Spanish Telegram group.
19:10:32 <xmrscott[m]> tl;dr I have no interest in drama, but if rotten / his alts are meeting mod it poses issues for Matrix users in the live meeting as well as any posted log history by him... and there are much better qualified folk to run it who have in the past.
19:31:19 <Rucknium[m]1> I would suggest that carrington moderate the meeting since they have done very well with the #monero-community:monero.social  meetings.
19:34:47 <duriancrepe[m]> Would it be possible to integrate p2pool like rewards for mining in general? I can imagine that would make mining fair and decentralized as there would be no incentives for any node or users to use a pool.
19:54:04 <Fungibility> "I have no interest in drama". If you had no interest in drama, you wouldn't waste so much time typing so many messages about the topic, you clearly do want drama and love it.
19:54:28 <Fungibility> This is all meta talk that should not be discussed in -dev in the first place. This is decadent behavior, for lack of a better word.
19:54:59 <sethforprivacy> This directly relates to the planned -dev meeting that is a few days away.
19:55:16 <sethforprivacy> Many devs are not in other channels, so why would it make sense to bring it up elsewhere?
19:56:02 <sethforprivacy> Not to mention the meeting will be held here and all involved parties are here.
20:06:43 <string111[m]> Are there any plans to add `man` entries for monerod?
20:10:36 <string111[m]> And is there a way to get monerod to respect `XDG_BASE_DIR` specification?
20:16:40 <moneromooo> If someone adds one (and, ideally, intends to maintain it).
20:16:54 <moneromooo> Debian might already have one and kept it, come to think of it.
20:17:42 <moneromooo> What would XDG_BASE_DIR do ? Those are the people who came up with those useless Documents/Videos/etc directories, no ?
20:18:36 <moneromooo> Though I guess the really annoying people are the ones that set up adduser to auto create those, not the ones that defined them.
20:30:19 <string111[m]> It would not out .bitmonero in the User's home directory, but have directories for data (XDG_DATA_HOME) and config (XDG_CONFIG_HOME) and cache (XDG_CACHE_HOMR)
20:31:08 <string111[m]> put*
20:33:01 <moneromooo> You can set chain directory with --data-dir, and put the log elsewhere with --log-file. Is that enough ?
20:33:27 <moneromooo> ie, ./monerod --data-dir "${XDG_DATA_DIR}/bitmonero-chain"
20:34:21 <ErCiccione> <xmrscott[m]> "I strongly suggest and ask..." <- Just ban his alternative account for ban evasion.
20:43:08 <geonic> I'm sure he's banned them, but he doesn't have buy-in from the IRC gods so he's just causing issues for Matrix users by filtering the discussion for them.
20:43:51 <geonic> Anyway, I agree with Fungibility and think the drama should stay in -community. No one here is rushing to let rotten moderate any meetings so this is all just self-righteous posturing.
20:51:26 <string111[m]> <moneromooo> "ie, ./monerod --data-dir "${..." <- Should suffice for the moment. Thanks 👍
21:09:33 <carrington[m]> With respect, I generally don't feel qualified to moderate or lead a dev meeting because I am not a dev. I think ideally research meetings are run by active researchers and dev meetings are run by active devs. If there are no devs who can volunteer to moderate the meeting this weekend I suppose I will do it as a last resort.
21:10:49 <carrington[m]> I do think having regular dev & research meetings is critical. 
21:12:11 <sethforprivacy> Personally, I think you do an excellent job moderating, and don't think you need to be a dev to run meetings :) You've done it extremely well in the past!
21:12:11 <sethforprivacy> More about corralling cats and guiding conversation then it is having technical input to each topic.
21:14:26 <endogenic> meetings were better when they were dev driven
21:16:22 <sethforprivacy> Then find a dev to run them or run them yourself.
21:16:29 <sethforprivacy> No one steps up, so it falls to us non-devs :)
21:16:53 <carrington[m]> I agree it is mostly cat herding but when much of the PRs being discussed go above my head it is difficult to have the correct context I think. I have some decent experience in python but it takes me an embarrassingly long amount of time to figure out what is happening in a block of c++ which is the majority of the conversation.
21:16:57 <hyc> I think it's a good thing for non-devs to have more participation
21:17:16 <sethforprivacy> hyc: Agreed.
21:17:59 <moneromooo> Discussion is rarely about code. It's usually about what to prioritize and similar.
21:18:28 <moneromooo> There *was* a "go through some PRs and decide what to do with them" but it didn't last long.
21:19:00 <moneromooo> So being able to read a patch isn't a great help for this.
21:19:26 <moneromooo> (and now next meeting will have code stuff, because murphy)
21:19:56 <hyc> lol
21:20:03 <hyc> why did it move from sunday to saturday?
21:20:16 <carrington[m]> As I said I am willing to pitch in to get things moving on important work, but I STRONGLY encourage anyone with experience of the codebase to consider regularly hosting dev meeting. 
21:20:32 <Fungibility> hyc: Because Sunday is packed with community and monerokon meetings.
21:20:51 <hyc> ah ok
21:22:34 <hyc> well, with upcoming hardfork, code reviews and freeze should be the main topics
21:34:01 <ErCiccione> If nobody is willing to chair the dev meeting i can. i've been doing it in past, also for pre hard fork meeting. Personally i don't think it metters too much if the chairperson is a coder or not, as long as they discuss the agenda and keep the structure
21:34:46 <ErCiccione> this dev meeting was organized by somebody trying to evade a ban, so it's not like it's a date set in stone. A meeting is necessary, but the date is up to the availability of people here
21:37:46 <carrington[m]> IMO,  "having sustainable dev led dev meetings" should be on the agenda of any dev meeting. A PR review club as hyc mentioned would be fantastic. There is something similar in BTC, although  changes are more incremental there I guess 
21:37:46 <carrington[m]> https://bitcoincore.reviews/
21:52:16 <ErCiccione> IIRC in the past years most of the devs meetings were lead by non-coders. I think that people simply don't care about chairing, which is fair enough. I don't know if adding it to the agenda of the next meeting will help with that. The review club is a good idea tho
21:57:25 <ErCiccione> Would people be ok with a meeting on sunday 30th as usual? I don't see any other meeting set for that day. Or people prefer the 29th?
21:58:01 <ErCiccione> There are few days left so if we have to set an agenda, throw in here the things you would like to discuss hard-fork related
21:59:02 <ErCiccione> I have to go afk now but i'll look into this tomorrow. Unless carrington prefers to chair.
21:59:25 <carrington[m]> This Sunday there is a -community meeting and an -events meeting
22:01:33 <ErCiccione> woops, missed. My bad. Then either this coming saturday or next sunday  i would say
22:03:00 <Fungibility> Posted the call for the dev meeting last Wednesday, right after UkoeHB finished MRL's. It's been more than a week for people to suggest agenda items or any other type of deliberation in the comments section. There has been time to discuss these and more.
22:03:10 <Fungibility> https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/652
22:03:52 <ErCiccione> he never runs out of alts
22:06:45 <carrington[m]> Sticking to the original date has less potential for confusion, particularly as the meeting has been widely published. I'll do my best to be around at that time regardless.
22:07:43 <UkoeHB> that works for me
22:08:45 <ErCiccione> Was it? I didn't know about it until today. Ok for me tho.
22:09:06 <ErCiccione> selsta moneromooo will you be around?
22:09:41 <ErCiccione> would be good to have somebody from core as well. Articmine binaryfate fluffypony luigi1111 ^
22:10:06 <moneromooo> Probably not far, though I'm kinda awol from monero these days
22:11:18 <selsta> ErCiccione: Sunday? ok
22:16:08 <selsta> or Saturday*
22:16:32 <luigi1111w> what time/day?
22:17:10 <Fungibility> Monero Dev Meeting; v15 network upgrade - Sat 29 January 2022 @ 17:00 UTC
22:17:17 <Fungibility> https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/652
22:20:12 <luigi1111w> yes I will try to be there
23:34:17 <chaser[m]> is it possible to manipulate where monero-wallet-cli puts raw_monero_tx?
23:42:26 <spirobel[m]> <fictionless[m]> "Yeah, good idea, I'll try it. I..." <- It should be possible using these scripts: https://twitter.com/spirobel/status/1486484432705908736 at least it worked for me. Make sure you start the wallet rpc with a wallet dir