00:09:29 <ooo123ooo1234567> <UkoeHB> "Although from one point of view,..." <- Any change to cryptography falls into this category. But for some reason bulletproofs+ are not protected by experimental flag. Inconsistency is everywhere
00:12:18 <ooo123ooo1234567> <luigi1112> "let's improve it" <- The best time is before or after hardfork ?
00:20:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ooo, being angry doesn't get us anywhere.
00:20:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> You know the answer to that question is "as soon as someone improves it"
00:22:41 <ooo123ooo1234567> <luigi1112> "on a related note, improving..." <- `dedicated_maintainer = random.choice(monerokon.members)` would it work ?
00:24:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Propose a solution or a direction towards one
00:25:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> The opposite doesnt help. Its like telling a fish that it is wet.
00:37:39 <ooo123ooo1234567> "https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/7760#issuecomment-1144626397", "Just that it turned out to be a dead end, only speaks for him, that he can think self-critically, and not that I'm not helping." incompetent developer justify blind approve by saying that PR author can think self-critically; facepalm
01:24:08 <selsta> .merges
01:24:08 -xmr-pr- 8296
01:52:31 <MeowingCat> is there a Monero node service??
02:24:37 <MeowingCat> i need to get UTXOs
02:29:45 <UkoeHB> MeowingCat: there are remote nodes volunteered by community members (and possibly malicious actors)
02:30:09 <UkoeHB> or you could be your own node...
02:31:19 <MeowingCat> i will setup a node but i need one to test rn
02:31:34 <MeowingCat> im working on building and signing transactions
02:31:59 <chesterfield[m]> Some good resources here MeowingCat https://community.rino.io/
02:33:51 <MeowingCat> looooooking thank youuuuuu
02:33:53 <selsta> .merge+ 8358 8357 8356
02:33:53 <xmr-pr> Added
02:34:17 <MeowingCat> ohhh damnn
02:34:24 <MeowingCat> this is a node
02:34:54 <MeowingCat> i hope there is an RPC server like BTC
04:20:45 <MeowingCat> isn't there a Monero RPC server i can use???
04:24:20 <selsta> MeowingCat: you have to be more precise with what you are looking for
04:25:20 <MeowingCat> there is an RPC service in Monero client
04:25:34 <MeowingCat> buttt is there an online service that i can use rn
04:25:51 <MeowingCat> i didn't setup my own Monero node yet
04:26:09 <MeowingCat> i need to get Monero UTXOs (on testnet)
04:44:42 <HenryHollingwort> https://monerodocs.org/interacting/monero-wallet-rpc-reference/#daemon-node
04:55:27 <MeowingCat> HenryHollingwort, is there an online service for tesnet???
04:56:55 <HenryHollingwort> run the wallet rpc server locally and connect to testnet daemon right?
04:57:15 <HenryHollingwort> use testnet faucet if you want txmr
04:57:15 <MeowingCat> but i need to download all blockchain
04:57:26 <HenryHollingwort> no
04:57:30 <MeowingCat> ohh
04:57:38 <MeowingCat> how??
04:58:10 <cryptogrampy[m]> There's a big list of nodes here, including stagenet and testnet: https://monero.fail/
04:58:12 <HenryHollingwort> wallet rpc server ---internet---> [daemon { blockchain} ] ---> peers
04:58:48 <MeowingCat> ummm
05:00:07 <cryptogrampy[m]> you run wallet rpc locally and point it at a public (or local) daemon
05:01:35 <MeowingCat> ohh got it
05:01:37 <MeowingCat> okiiiii
05:25:01 <mj-xmr[m]> Hi MeowingCat ,
05:25:01 <mj-xmr[m]> We have #monero channel for this :)
10:47:43 <freedomf8ter[m]> Hi everyone! How would you go about integrating a front end application with Monero? Monero doesn’t have an API, right?
10:54:02 <sech1> It does have an API: https://www.getmonero.org/resources/developer-guides/wallet-rpc.html
10:56:40 <moneromooo> There's also a number of higher level APIs, see the monero-ecosystem github user. Also, "monero integrations" for really high level (as in, plugins for a number of online shop software).
11:12:02 <freedomf8ter[m]> <sech1> "It does have an API: https://www..." <- Thanks. I guess I missed it.
12:17:14 <spirobel[m]> <freedomf8ter[m]> "Hi everyone! How would you go..." <- if you want to get started quickly you can just fork this repo. I collected some scripts there to play around with the wallet rpc https://github.com/spirobel/monero-playground
12:18:16 <spirobel[m]> you can also take a look at https://moneropay.eu/ people work on making the wallet rpc more stable and accessible. 
12:19:39 <spirobel[m]> but probably still good to play with the wallet rpc so you get a feel for it. https://github.com/monero-ecosystem/monero-javascript is also very good. 
12:22:50 <spirobel[m]> and also maybe read cryptogrampy s hotshop source code if you are into typescript. https://github.com/CryptoGrampy/HotShop
15:44:03 <hyc> weird. CI is failing to compile my last push to #7774 but it compiles fine on my ubuntu laptop
15:49:39 <cryptogrampy[m]> <freedomf8ter[m]> "Hi everyone! How would you go..." <- spirobel: already linked to my HotShop project, but it's essentially an in-browser view-only web-wallet that talks directly to public (web-compatible) Monero nodes.
15:51:24 <MeowingCat> can anyone tel me Monero's transaction struct
15:51:35 <MeowingCat> struct monero_tx {
15:51:35 <MeowingCat>     char* m_address;
15:51:35 <MeowingCat>     uint64_t m_amount;
15:51:35 <MeowingCat>     monero_dest* m_destinations;
15:51:35 <MeowingCat>     char* m_payment_id;
15:51:36 <MeowingCat>     priority m_priority;
15:51:38 <MeowingCat>     uint32_t m_ring_size;
15:51:40 <MeowingCat>     uint64_t m_fee;
15:51:42 <MeowingCat>     uint32_t m_account_index;
15:51:44 <MeowingCat>     uint32_t m_subaddress_indices[];
15:51:46 <MeowingCat>     uint64_t m_unlock_height;
15:51:48 <MeowingCat>     bool m_can_split;
15:51:50 <MeowingCat>     bool m_relay;
15:51:52 <MeowingCat>     char* m_note;
15:51:55 <MeowingCat>     char* m_recipient_name;
15:51:58 <MeowingCat>     uint64_t m_below_amount;
15:52:00 <MeowingCat>     bool m_sweep_each_subaddress;
15:52:02 <MeowingCat>     char* m_key_image;
15:52:04 <MeowingCat> }
15:52:06 <MeowingCat> (sorry for multiline) is this correct??
15:52:31 <MeowingCat> this is what i understand from Monero source
15:54:32 <hyc> that's what pastebins are for. if it's in the source, then it is correct.
15:54:54 <MeowingCat> i have to be sure :(
15:55:15 <MeowingCat> because im still dealing to build a correct transaction
15:55:30 <chesterfield[m]> wrap your code in ``` ``` or use pastebin
15:55:42 <MeowingCat> this thing loooks like something different
15:55:55 <MeowingCat> something like a command for another interface
15:56:12 <MeowingCat> chesterfield[m], okiiiiii
15:56:50 <hyc> no, never do multiline pastes, quoted or not. just use pastebin.
15:56:59 <UkoeHB> For some reason `-DCMAKE_EXPORT_COMPILE_COMMANDS=ON` isn't exporting anything for the tests folder... anyone have any clues what I should do? Apparently it used to work, but who knows what I did...
15:57:02 <MeowingCat> i just need memory representation of a transaction
15:57:13 <MeowingCat> like C types or byte lengths and damn endiannes
15:57:43 <UkoeHB> MeowingCat: for serialization?
15:58:02 <MeowingCat> in this context serialization means encoding the transaction as hex
15:58:04 <MeowingCat> i think
15:58:22 <MeowingCat> i will serialize it and send to RPC server
15:58:29 <MeowingCat> after signing
15:58:41 <MeowingCat> im making a C# library for our thing also
15:59:04 <MeowingCat> just transaction building/signing is left
15:59:13 <vdo> has anyone tried to call libwallet API from Rust using CXX ?
15:59:34 <MeowingCat> please anyone tell me Monero's transaction struct :(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
15:59:58 <UkoeHB> MeowingCat: you probably want to check cryptonote_basic/cryptonote_basic.h class transaction;
16:00:21 <MeowingCat> UkoeHB, looooooking thank youuuu <3
16:01:50 <MeowingCat> i really don't understand why this source is like this
16:01:59 <MeowingCat> everything could be more understandable
16:02:04 <MeowingCat> with just C
16:02:12 <MeowingCat> just a struct and serializing it is very simple
16:02:16 <hyc> using C++ was definitely a poor choice
16:02:22 <MeowingCat> :((((((
16:02:29 <hyc> but it's what we inherited from cryptonote
16:02:54 <hyc> no one has the time to rewrite it all in plain C
16:03:28 <MeowingCat> i understand Monero software has tons of stuff and using tons of libraries for them and all of things is very complicated and toooooo mcuh work to implement
16:03:40 <MeowingCat> but C++ and ridicilious design patters makes everything worse
16:04:03 <hyc> yep. totally agreed.
16:04:18 <MeowingCat> im really happy to see an intelligent person
16:04:32 <UkoeHB> ok found my problem, generating the build tree with `cmake -B build -S . -D_....` was the wrong choice, I just need to rely on `make`...
16:08:30 <MeowingCat> UkoeHB, there is no any transaction struct here :(((((
16:09:37 <MeowingCat> is `transaction` class the thing that is being serialized????
16:10:02 <MeowingCat> and holds things about the transaction?*
16:11:21 <UkoeHB> yep pretty much
16:12:02 <hyc> has to all be crunched by a bunch of libboost serialization code
16:12:11 <hyc> PITA to pot to other languages
16:12:16 <hyc> port*
16:14:39 <MeowingCat> UkoeHB, this is making me cry
16:14:58 <MeowingCat> just 5-10 lines
16:15:12 <MeowingCat> that tells the memory representation of a transaction
16:15:16 <UkoeHB> MeowingCat: dealing with monero code requires time and patience, no way around it
16:16:39 <hyc> We really need a proper protocol spec, written in BNF
16:17:18 <UkoeHB> might be worth putting up a bounty for that
16:17:56 <moneromooo> If you do, it should include a requirement for tests that pass every tx in the chain.
16:18:29 <hyc> makes sense
16:18:56 <moneromooo> Well, not every one since it'll have to be done manually I guess. But a sample of known txes that exercise various stuff.
16:18:57 <UkoeHB> moneromooo: easy enough `bool validate_tx_test(const cryptonote::transaction &tx) { return true; }` :p
16:20:08 <UkoeHB> however, it would be good to get a parallel tx validator that can be manually validated
16:20:34 <MeowingCat> i derived things
16:20:45 <hyc> isn't that python project already doing that?
16:20:52 <MeowingCat> pub/sec spend/view keys, pub address
16:21:03 <UkoeHB> MeowingCat: you can look at the json representation to get started, although idk about the wire format
16:21:29 <MeowingCat> does RPC service accept JSON?
16:21:39 <MeowingCat> i will just UTXOs
16:21:43 <MeowingCat> get* UTXOs*
16:21:58 <MeowingCat> build and sign transaction and broadcast
16:22:23 <hyc> sounds like you're reimplementing libwallet
16:22:41 <MeowingCat> yess im making a C# library
16:22:51 <MeowingCat> i will use that in the app im making
16:23:44 <MeowingCat> im using C# because Godot has Mono and it is cross-platform with Godot
16:27:36 <MeowingCat> https://developer.bitcoin.org/reference/transactions.html,
16:27:45 <MeowingCat> i need an explaination like thissssss
16:28:03 <UkoeHB> hyc: yeah the python library is https://www.moneroinflation.com/, although there is no spec to match against
16:28:27 <UkoeHB> MeowingCat: sounds like something you could work on
16:28:46 <MeowingCat> :((((((((((((((
16:29:23 <MeowingCat> please someone stopp C+++++++ and design patterns shits
16:33:27 <hyc> CI macos build fails due to not finding OpenSSL
16:33:47 <hyc> CI windows build fails due to no def of std::numeric_limits ?
16:34:29 <hyc> https://github.com/LMDB/bitmonero/runs/6727281816?check_suite_focus=true#step:5:1163
16:35:32 <hyc> not giving me warm fuzzies here
16:37:34 <UkoeHB> MeowingCat: for the next gen protocol, I'm trying to do things a little more cleanly (not that it helps you :p) https://github.com/UkoeHB/monero/blob/9e185b1328e52e10dc74d9b4899bce2b98d2f234/src/seraphis/txtype_squashed_v1.h#L70
16:39:26 <MeowingCat> loooooking
16:41:19 <MeowingCat> UkoeHB, is this a transaction structure?
16:41:31 <UkoeHB> yes
16:43:27 <MeowingCat> m_input_images, m_outputs, m_balance_proof, m_image_proofs, m_membership_proofs, m_supplement, m_fee, m_tx_semantic_rules_version
16:43:52 <MeowingCat> i need to build the transaction with these???
16:44:27 <MeowingCat> what does "input_images" mean?
16:44:31 <UkoeHB> For seraphis you would, it's experimental and WIP. The current protocol has similar components.
16:44:45 <MeowingCat> is "m_outputs" UTXO inputs????
16:46:04 <UkoeHB> Input images are masked versions of the real inputs you are spending (including the key image). Outputs are the literal outputs - the new enotes (aka UTXOs) created by the tx.
16:47:14 <UkoeHB> monero has a lot of cryptography, so there is a lot more in a monero tx than a bitcoin tx
16:49:18 <hyc> you're probably better off using a foreign function interface and calling monero libwallet from your app
16:50:08 <hyc> would be a waste of time to implement all of the crypto mechanisms from scratch in C#
16:50:12 <UkoeHB> yeah, there's a good reason no one has every written a full third-party monero wallet
16:50:16 <UkoeHB> ever*
16:51:21 <hyc> even if it was easy to do it wouldn't be a good idea. would make fingerprinting possible.
16:52:38 <UkoeHB> most of that can be avoided with strict semantic rules
16:52:52 <UkoeHB> although decoy selection is a weakness
16:53:11 <UkoeHB> decoy selection, fees, and tx extra
17:07:27 <wernervasquez[m]> <hyc> "even if it was easy to do it..." <- I disagree. Any activity which exposes weaknesses is a great idea. Such endevors would hasten the development of a more secure specification.
17:08:50 <moneromooo> That... is a fair point.
17:09:15 <moneromooo> Where it gets dicey is for monerod.
17:09:24 <moneromooo> Shoutout to dangerousfreedom here :D
17:09:39 <moneromooo> I think that's a good sweet spot.
17:16:53 <hyc> yeah I suppose if we actually had detailed protocol specs it would be viable
17:17:31 <hyc> so that is clearly the next step before one can safely create a new implementation
17:17:34 <dangerousfreedom> This week I almost had a heart attack. I had scanned 200k borromean signatures and suddenly one failed. I tried to rewind the blockchain to print exactly what was happening but it was faster to start from 0, when I reached my desired tx, I printed every point multiplication and realized it was an error in my code. The scalar reading was not reading the same value as it was in the blockchain. I still don't know why because it has
17:17:34 <dangerousfreedom> worked for hundred of thousands of txs... I will take a look another time :p
17:17:56 <hyc> lol
17:18:58 <hyc> and with some languages (e.g. javascript) having completely braindead data types and arithmetic behaviors, even a precise spec may not be enough
17:19:15 <hyc> or you have to define the spec down to the behavior of basic arithmetic ops
17:41:16 <UkoeHB> MeowingCat: on deeper thought, fully reimplementing monero txs in C# is a huge job. You'd need to implement both CLSAG and bulletproofs(+), in addition to output scanning, tx building logic (there are non-trivial details e.g. decoy selection, fee calculations, when and how to make special change outputs...), etc. Wrapping monero libwallet seems like your best bet.
17:41:41 <MeowingCat> :((((((((((((((((((
17:41:58 <MeowingCat> i will get UTXOs with sending private view key to our node
17:42:13 <UkoeHB> You didn't want to read Zero to Monero, but it is a long book because there are a lot of complicated things to think about.
17:42:22 <MeowingCat> does that need something that i can't get from RPC service???
17:43:09 <MeowingCat> i think the important question is thissss
17:43:24 <MeowingCat> does building a transaction need something that i can't get from RPC server?
17:43:26 <UkoeHB> like monero-lws? https://github.com/vtnerd/monero-lws
17:43:35 <moneromooo> You can do pretty much everything from RPC. It depends how low level you want to go. See the functional tests for what can be done. This is all done via RPC.
17:43:55 <moneromooo> But "biulding a transaction" here is "please send N to address A".
17:44:03 <MeowingCat> the only thing i can send to RPC server is private view key
17:44:26 <moneromooo> The RPC server would have your secret keys in the first place.
17:45:04 <moneromooo> But I concur with "Wrapping monero libwallet seems like your best bet".
17:46:12 <UkoeHB> MeowingCat: https://moneroecosystem.org/
17:46:28 <MeowingCat> you mean i can't build a transaction with things from Monero's RPC server with just sending private view key???
17:47:35 <moneromooo> Correct. If you could build a valid tx without the private spend key, I think it might lead to pessimal action on chain...
17:48:17 <MeowingCat> nooooooooo
17:48:25 <MeowingCat> i don't mean that :((((((((((((((
17:48:44 <MeowingCat> i just need to build a transaction without sending private spend key anywhere
17:48:55 <MeowingCat> i can send private view key to RPC server
17:48:59 <MeowingCat> and get UTXOs
17:49:10 <MeowingCat> and whatever i need
17:49:18 <MeowingCat> then build and sign a transaction
17:49:24 <moneromooo> Wait. I might have assumed too much:
17:49:36 <MeowingCat> just like MetaMask
17:49:55 <UkoeHB> MeowingCat: did you hear me? To build a transaction, you need to implement all the monero cryptography. This is months of work.
17:50:10 <moneromooo> In the case I envision you in, you'd have two pieces of software:
17:50:13 <moneromooo> - monero-wallet-rpc
17:50:21 <moneromooo> - your own software
17:50:32 <moneromooo> monero-wallet-rpc would (1) have the spend key and (2) build transactions
17:50:48 <moneromooo> The side which builds the tx obviously needs the spend secret key.
17:50:58 <MeowingCat> UkoeHB, whyyyyy it is just a simple thing what do i need else than UTXOs???
17:51:07 <UkoeHB> cryptography
17:51:22 <moneromooo> Now, what was suggested above (wrapping wallet2) means those who pieces of software would merge into one.
17:51:40 <UkoeHB> all this stuff: https://github.com/monero-project/monero/tree/master/src/ringct
17:51:57 <moneromooo> Then you would not need to send the spend secret key anywhere, since you'd make the tx. I'm sorry if I'm getting the wrong idea, it's not qiute clear to me which case you're in.
17:52:38 <moneromooo> But when I said "Correct. If you could build a valid tx without the private spend key, I think it might lead to pessimal action on chain...", I meant "if another piece of software is gonna build the tx, it's gonna need the spend key".
17:53:02 <moneromooo> I was assuming you'd talk to monero-wallet-rpc here, which needs the spend key (and already has it).
17:53:27 <MeowingCat> yesss
17:53:29 <moneromooo> It's the same for bitcoin fwiw. I assume. You need the spend key to create a tx.
17:53:48 <moneromooo> Well, the key. They have just one for view and spend AIUI.
17:53:52 <MeowingCat> i mean the client appp im making has private spend key and needs to build and sign a transaction
17:54:06 <moneromooo> So you have two main solutions:
17:54:21 <MeowingCat> how much different a Monero transaction than Bitcoin transaction??
17:54:24 <moneromooo> 1: run monero-wallet-rpc on the side, which has the spend and view secret keys, and you direct it to create txes
17:54:49 <UkoeHB> MeowingCat: the difference is enormous
17:54:51 <moneromooo> 2: add FFI to wallet2 and call those directly from your process, keeping spend and view secret keys in that process
17:54:57 <MeowingCat> doesn't monero-wallet-rpc thing need to send private spend key to RPC server?
17:55:18 <UkoeHB> MeowingCat: in monero, the RPC server is just a wallet interface
17:55:33 <moneromooo> monero-wallet-rpc IS the RPC server.
17:55:45 <MeowingCat> yesssss it is just an interface to use Monero appppp
17:55:58 <moneromooo> Well, there areo two RPC servers. The wallet's and the node's. The node will never need your keys.
17:56:11 <moneromooo> That might be the cause of a misunderstanding :)
17:56:21 <MeowingCat> and in this context the thing that builds and signs transactions is Monero software
17:56:40 <moneromooo> "Monero software" is not precise enough here.
17:56:57 <MeowingCat> i mean private spend key can't get out from user's wallet
17:57:16 <moneromooo> It does not need to leave monero-wallet-rpc's process.
17:57:27 <MeowingCat> really???????
17:57:57 <moneromooo> The process that creates the tx needs it. No other one does.
17:59:26 <MeowingCat> im confuseddd
17:59:28 <MeowingCat> :((((((((((((((
17:59:34 <MeowingCat> i need to drink cola
18:00:26 <moneromooo> I think the confusion might have been from me assuming you had some software which had the spend secret key, *plus* moneor-wallet-rpc, which will also need to know it.
18:00:54 <moneromooo> But your software does not have to know it, unless you want it to know it for other reasons (eg, creating it in the firts place).
18:01:42 <MeowingCat> the wallet im making has all keys
18:01:59 <MeowingCat> and should not send private keys except private view key
18:02:34 <MeowingCat> you mean monero-wallet-rpc thing doesn't need to send private spend key and can send transactions?????????????????????????
18:02:37 <moneromooo> Then the process creating that wallet will know the keys. If it's monero-wallet-rpc, you're good.
18:02:47 <moneromooo> No, I am sauing the opposite :S
18:03:03 <MeowingCat> im confusedddddddddd
18:03:05 <MeowingCat> the process is
18:03:29 <MeowingCat> you mean processsssss???????
18:03:53 <moneromooo> Mayyyybeeeeeee
18:03:58 <MeowingCat> im deriving keys in C#
18:04:00 <UkoeHB> lmao
18:04:06 <MeowingCat> i can just pass them to monero-wallet-rpc thing
18:04:22 <MeowingCat> and do you mean that can send transaction without sending private spend key anywhere??????
18:04:22 <moneromooo> You will have to, unless you reimplement most of wallet2. BUT:
18:04:36 <moneromooo> Can you get away with letting monero-wallet-rpc create hte keys for you ?
18:04:46 <MeowingCat> ohhhh
18:04:48 <moneromooo> If you can, then only one process will ever know the keys: monero-wallet-rpc.
18:04:51 <MeowingCat> why does it matter??????
18:04:58 <MeowingCat> private keys are in the processssssss
18:05:02 <MeowingCat> i meannn
18:05:05 <moneromooo> Which processssss ?
18:05:16 <MeowingCat> :(((((((((((((((((((((
18:05:18 <MeowingCat> client process
18:05:19 <moneromooo> !!!!!!!!!1
18:05:32 <MeowingCat> user's wallet appppp
18:05:41 <moneromooo> That's your C# code ?
18:05:45 <MeowingCat> yesssssss
18:05:58 <MeowingCat> just like MetaMask
18:05:58 <moneromooo> (Your keyboard's fucked btw)
18:05:59 <MeowingCat> it is same
18:06:07 <moneromooo> (or, if not your keyboard, some wetware)
18:06:13 <moneromooo> Anyway, to recap:
18:06:19 <MeowingCat> wdymm??
18:06:22 <moneromooo> 1: whatever creates the txes must have the spend secret key
18:06:55 <moneromooo> 2: if you want just one proicess to have the spend secret key, it'll have to be hte same process that creates the txes
18:07:27 <moneromooo> 3: so either FFI wallet2 to merge C# and wallet2, or have your C# process ask monero-wallet-rpc to create the keys itself
18:07:31 <moneromooo> Is that clear ?
18:07:32 <MeowingCat> i mean does wallet-rpc thing create transactions and sign with private spend key or send transaction information and private spend key for the RPC server to build and sign?
18:08:32 <moneromooo> monero-wallet-rpc creates transactions and signs them with the private spend key. monero-wallet-rpc is a RPC server and so doesn't need to send itself the keys, it already has them.
18:08:48 <moneromooo> If by "the RPC server" you mean monerod, the monerod does not need the secret keys. Ever.
18:09:01 <MeowingCat> ohhh
18:09:03 <MeowingCat> i thought
18:09:04 <MeowingCat> you mean
18:09:11 <MeowingCat> https://github.com/monero-ecosystem/csharp-monero-rpc-client
18:09:16 <MeowingCat> this thing with monero-wallet-rpc
18:10:08 <MeowingCat> this thing doesn't do that right?
18:10:23 <moneromooo> I do not understand that question, it is too vague.
18:10:44 <moneromooo> (rephrase with more specificity)
18:10:49 <MeowingCat> okiii
18:11:02 <MeowingCat> does this lib: https://github.com/monero-ecosystem/csharp-monero-rpc-client
18:11:19 <MeowingCat> build and sign a transaction without sending private spend key??
18:12:26 <moneromooo> I do not know that lib, but from the name it's probably something that sends RPC. As such, it would not have access to the secret keys.
18:12:36 <moneromooo> That is my ASSUMPTION from the name only.
18:13:23 <MeowingCat> i think it is sending private spend key :((((((((
18:13:39 <moneromooo> If my above assumption is correct (it might not), then it would not build and sign a tx, it would ask a running monero-wallet-rpc client to do so.
18:14:10 <moneromooo> If my assumption is correct, it would not send the secret spend key. monero-wallet-rpc would have it already in the first place.
18:14:30 <moneromooo> (and the process using https://github.com/monero-ecosystem/csharp-monero-rpc-client would NOT have it)
18:14:47 <moneromooo> Again, this is all based on my ASSUMPTION based on the name of that project.
18:14:59 <moneromooo> If someone actually knows that project, they can speak with authority.
18:15:38 <MeowingCat> :(((((
18:15:41 <MeowingCat> thank you alllll
18:15:52 <moneromooo> Also, as said above, you can bypass all this by calling wallet2 directly (that's what I'm doing with Townforge, the wallet that uses the urho3d game engine).
18:16:15 <moneromooo> It's simpler, only one process has the keys.
18:17:07 <moneromooo> But if you don't, you can still ensure only one process (monero-wallet-rpc) has the keys. You just need to ask monero-wallet-rpc to create the keys for you, instead of creating them with your C# code.
18:17:34 <moneromooo> In all cases, monerod never sees those keys.
18:34:42 <rbrunner> I know that lib,  https://github.com/monero-ecosystem/csharp-monero-rpc-client. It's just monero-wallet-rpc calls turned into C# calls. A mere wrapper.
18:35:03 <rbrunner> I use that extensively for my web wallet
18:36:18 <rbrunner> Like we have other such wrappers e.g. for Python
18:37:03 <rbrunner> Or Java. Or JavaScript.
18:46:45 <kayabanerve[m]> <hyc> "using C++ was definitely a..." <- not using rust was a poor choice :(
18:47:24 <kayabanerve[m]> if the rewrite-in-c crowd gains more traction that the rewrite-in-rust crowd, i'm suggesting rewrite-in-elixir just so no one's happy with what language we're working with
18:47:35 <kayabanerve[m]> :P
18:49:09 <kayabanerve[m]> All jokes aside, I do believe C++ was the right choice for a piece of code like this. I believe C++ can be much easier to wield as Monero needs than C, even if C is simpler in a lot of regards. I'm also scared to think of the amount of memory we'd be dealing with in C. While I understand memory can be, and is, used properly, I legitimately believe a C implementation would have less developers participating.
18:49:15 <moneromooo> I dunno, GW-BASIC has the advantage of being pretty old, so lots of time for review. It's probably the safest.
18:49:24 <moneromooo> Let's rewrite it in GW-BASIC.
18:49:26 <kayabanerve[m]> concept ack
18:49:37 <kayabanerve[m]> can you have a prototype by monday?
18:49:57 <moneromooo> Fuck no.
18:50:04 <kayabanerve[m]> preferably with seraphis so we don't add delays there, and also with quantum security because might as well if we're rewriting
18:50:08 <kayabanerve[m]> boooo
18:50:31 <moneromooo> GW-BASIC is such an old, safe language, it needs careful implementation. 2062 earliest.
18:50:32 <kayabanerve[m]> But direct and honest :p Thanks for always being yourself, mooo :)
18:50:39 <moneromooo> I'll need a salary till then ofc.
18:51:01 <kayabanerve[m]> and we can't expect results before then, so obviously it should be with tenure to ensure the 2035 community doesn't try to revoke it
18:51:38 <moneromooo> I'll go beyond poke and hope, and enter to the poke and peek and hope epoch...
18:52:08 * moneromooo loves obscure references...
19:55:24 <nikg83[m]> Is it possible to add more settings for localnode in advanced mode like in/out_peers , blocklist, db sync mode ? Same way like blockchain location is there
19:56:36 <nikg83[m]> New users don’t find it easy to specify startup flags
19:57:30 <moneromooo> All of these already exist as command line parameters. If you mean adding console commands, in/out peers exist, not the others.
19:57:54 <moneromooo> IIRC blocklist was a bit annoying (I looked). db sync mode seems doable fairly easily.
19:58:06 <moneromooo> Blockchain location, not without a restart.
20:13:04 <MeowingCat> is the inventor of this thing an alien?
20:14:30 <jeffro256[m]> yes
20:14:54 <MeowingCat> goooooooooooooooooooood
20:17:40 <MeowingCat> https://pastebin.com/wGT4i7x7
20:18:02 <MeowingCat> why everything about Monero (except itself) can't compile on anywhere????
20:18:24 <MeowingCat> Monero's itself is interesting tooooo
20:18:32 <MeowingCat> im getting 1982319823918 warnings
20:19:03 <MeowingCat> and totally not portable or usable with anything :(((
20:19:21 <moneromooo> Impressive. It'd take more than a terabyte even with one byte per warning.
20:20:04 <MeowingCat> :(((
20:20:08 <nikg83[m]> <moneromooo> "All of these already exist as..." <- Yep, but normal users can’t use cli that well
20:20:08 <nikg83[m]> Sorry for posting here, was supposed to post in the gui channel 
20:20:43 <moneromooo> Ah, right. Dunno about the GUI then, sorry.
20:20:59 <MeowingCat>  /mnt/c/proje/mymonero-core-cpp/contrib/monero-core-custom/epee/src/wipeable_string.cpp:147:67: error: ‘::max’ has not been declared; did you mean ‘std::max’?
20:21:10 <UkoeHB> that numeric_limits error sounds like what hyc was talking about
20:21:19 <MeowingCat> if this code is wrong how does it work in somewhere
20:21:27 <endogenic> that code is put of date at least
20:21:47 <MeowingCat> i will make a kilobytecoin
20:21:55 <moneromooo> #include <numeric> IIRC for numeric_limits.
20:22:12 <endogenic> my private version is up to date but i'm a hairs width away from being able to publish it
20:22:16 <UkoeHB> should be <limits> (which is in that file) https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/types/numeric_limits
20:22:28 <UkoeHB> MeowingCat: are you compiling master or a release version?
20:22:38 <MeowingCat> master of mymonero-core-cpp
20:22:50 <MeowingCat> let me try a release
20:23:16 <moneromooo> Then why are you complaining about the monero project if you're compiling anothre related project ? :D
20:23:35 <chesterfield[m]> <rbrunner> "I use that extensively for my..." <- Link to this wallet?
20:24:31 <MeowingCat> :(((((
20:24:42 <MeowingCat> because Monero is making me cry
20:24:48 <MeowingCat> no doc
20:25:03 <MeowingCat> and devs who are saying me implementing a tx building and signing is impossible
20:25:07 <moneromooo> Well, it's Esperanto for "In your face"...
20:25:07 <endogenic> MeowingCat: perhaps i'll give you access to my version of monero core cop and core custom
20:25:17 <endogenic> cpp
20:25:19 <MeowingCat> it is written by an alien and impossible to implement in another platform
20:25:25 <endogenic> i solved the problem if embedding
20:25:27 <MeowingCat> and something like that :(
20:25:31 <endogenic> i wrote the code repo youre using lol
20:25:37 <moneromooo> Wow. Those devs are ignorant then. It's possible. Proof by example: wallet2.
20:25:40 <endogenic> idk why you're missing a std
20:25:56 <endogenic> mooo he's talking about without including the entire world
20:26:02 <endogenic> and without libunbound lolz
20:26:03 <MeowingCat> why wallet"2"????
20:26:07 <MeowingCat> what does that mean???
20:26:11 <endogenic> MeowingCat: watch my talk lol
20:26:19 <moneromooo> endogenic: I'm only being sarcastic here :)
20:26:20 <MeowingCat> endogenic, sorry
20:26:28 <MeowingCat> im crying
20:26:36 <endogenic> haha he doesnt know that mooo
20:26:42 <endogenic> it's ok meowingcat
20:26:45 <endogenic> endo's here
20:26:58 <MeowingCat> there are interesting issues
20:26:59 <moneromooo> I half realize that.
20:27:22 <MeowingCat> i really wonder about
20:27:34 <MeowingCat> can i build it for Android, Linux and iOS
20:27:49 <endogenic> MeowingCat: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DY0iE0cBXbc
20:27:56 <endogenic> yes you really can
20:28:01 <endogenic> if you use my codebase
20:28:15 <endogenic> tho well for linux you will possibly want to put multithreading back in idk
20:28:15 <MeowingCat> what is epee library???
20:28:19 <endogenic> that's really just commented
20:28:26 <endogenic> MeowingCat: epee is a type of sword
20:28:28 <MeowingCat> im really curious about these things
20:28:31 <endogenic> you might call it a tool
20:28:32 <endogenic> or a util
20:28:34 <endogenic> el oh el
20:28:36 <moneromooo> endogenic: that's the idea :D
20:28:37 <endogenic> trolling now
20:29:18 <endogenic> man i wish i could release my work wtf
20:29:25 <endogenic> i mean.. i guess i can now
20:29:27 <jeffro256[m]> > what is epee library???
20:29:27 <jeffro256[m]> In the author's own words: "epee - is a small library of helpers, wrappers, tools and and so on, used to make my life easier."
20:29:30 <endogenic> well, almost
20:29:33 <endogenic> one last thing
20:29:38 <endogenic> legal related
20:29:45 <endogenic> give it 1-3 days
20:29:46 <moneromooo> Someone who knows about git grep ^
20:31:15 <jeffro256[m]> Learning about git grep was a life changing expereince 
20:31:32 <endogenic> "to make my life easier"
20:31:53 <endogenic> but not necessarily simpler
20:32:01 <moneromooo> git bisect was mine. Thank, whoever you are...
20:32:40 <moneromooo> (but git bisect would be mostly pointless without ccache (which has works for years fwiw), so thank you whoever too)
20:36:11 <MeowingCat> endogenic, can i cross-compile it on Linux?
20:36:23 <endogenic> sure
20:36:38 <endogenic> damnit
20:36:41 <endogenic> dammit*
20:36:47 <endogenic> i really want to give you my updated docs
20:36:55 <endogenic> it details exactly what i changed
20:37:02 <MeowingCat> https://pastebin.com/06RZXnD2
20:37:04 <MeowingCat> error :(
20:38:08 <endogenic> youre getting tons of weird errors
20:38:21 <endogenic> chances are this is upstream of "my" code
20:38:22 <endogenic> that is
20:38:34 <endogenic> in your cmake lists or in your source code's global includes
20:38:39 <MeowingCat> it is 1.1.2 branch
20:38:50 <MeowingCat> nothing changed :(
20:38:54 <MeowingCat> on Linux
20:38:54 <endogenic> ok just fyi that code is way old and my access to it was revoked
20:39:03 <MeowingCat> ummmmm
20:39:16 <endogenic> my open source PR feedback comments on it were literally censored
20:39:35 <MeowingCat> i tried to use libwalet.a thing before
20:39:37 <endogenic> i cant vouch for it, idk what changed but
20:39:42 <MeowingCat> but Monero source is really interesting
20:39:47 <MeowingCat> include paths are not relative
20:39:50 <MeowingCat> and more things
20:39:51 <endogenic> yeah you could call it interesting lol
20:40:00 <endogenic> check out mymonero core cpp cmakelists.txt
20:40:07 <endogenic> how i include headers and sources
20:40:18 <endogenic> i dont use all of the monero embedded cmakelisfs
20:40:25 <endogenic> though i would like to
20:40:51 <endogenic> i'm gonna bounce to another location now. feel free to leave questions
20:41:27 <MeowingCat> okiii
20:41:38 <chesterfield[m]> <endogenic> "man i wish i could release my..." <- Plz sir 
20:42:26 <plowsof[m]> rbrunners webwallet is, i believe: https://monerotech.info/Wallet
20:42:35 <chesterfield[m]> Y hold back code you’ll eventually release? 👀
20:43:32 <chesterfield[m]> plowsof[m]: Why aren’t there any wallets that use wallet rpc?
20:43:46 <MeowingCat> what is making building transactions complicated this much?
20:44:10 <MeowingCat> anyone can't implement the same thing in another language
20:44:18 <MeowingCat> an alien wrote it and we have to use it somehow
20:46:12 <MeowingCat> endogenic, you have a private repo??
20:47:15 <chesterfield[m]> chesterfield[m]: Looking for a technical answer here… seems like a selfhosted wallet rpc would be a very low bandwidth solution for a wallet on a phone
20:51:16 <MeowingCat> if i was making an exchange it would be way easier
20:51:25 <MeowingCat> because damn build target would be just Linux
20:54:19 <UkoeHB> chesterfield[m]: do you mean connect to a private server running wallet rpc, and the phone wallet is just an interface for that?
20:58:31 <chesterfield[m]> UkoeHB: Exactly 
21:00:34 <UkoeHB> probably doesn't exist because it isn't commercially viable
21:09:22 <MeowingCat> i will rewrite Monero in future
21:09:23 <MeowingCat> in C
21:09:30 <MeowingCat> zero issues on building
21:09:33 <MeowingCat> zero warnings
21:09:53 <MeowingCat> maybe after that i can make a Kilobytecoin
21:10:47 <endogenic> MeowingCat: yes, a few of them, some very useful stuff
21:11:08 <endogenic> them, -> them.
21:11:21 <MeowingCat> https://github.com/rohanrhu can you give me access???
21:11:45 <endogenic> MeowingCat: rewriting C is the idea of one of my team mates as well
21:11:47 <endogenic> in C
21:11:51 <endogenic> libmonero
21:12:06 <MeowingCat> C++ is dumb
21:12:08 <endogenic> starting as an alternate implementation would be fine
21:12:09 <endogenic> C++ is not dumb
21:12:56 <MeowingCat> it is dumbbbbb just making everything problematic
21:12:57 <endogenic> chesterfield[m]: is that not better solved by the light wallet scanning server?
21:13:19 <endogenic> either way if you want to use the RPC interface then I wrote a server that pretends to be wallet rpc server and is backed by a light scanning server
21:14:09 <MeowingCat> actually i can even use CLI with just Monero executable
21:14:15 <MeowingCat> or run RPC server and communicate
21:14:20 <MeowingCat> butttt iOS doesn't allow that
21:14:29 <plowsof> what do you actually want to do MeowingCat 
21:14:37 <MeowingCat> wallet
21:14:42 <endogenic> he just wants to compile monero core crypto 
21:15:02 <MeowingCat> BTC, ETH and Monero
21:15:12 <endogenic> MeowingCat: if you share your repo with me then i can at least look and see why you are struggling to compile mymonero-core-cpp
21:15:24 <MeowingCat> but Monero is not like BTC and ETH :(
21:15:35 <MeowingCat> i willl
21:15:39 <chesterfield[m]> endogenic: the light wallet server that doesn’t support sub addresses and has more identifiable transactions?
21:15:42 <MeowingCat> it will be open source
21:15:46 <endogenic> it does support subaddrs
21:15:52 <endogenic> i've had that support built for quite a while now >:)
21:15:58 <endogenic> it's also very very cool
21:16:04 <endogenic> jberman and i shared info on a spec for it
21:16:08 <endogenic> it's pretty simple
21:16:09 <MeowingCat> i incluuded damn stdexcept in cryptonote_config.h and it is building now
21:16:15 <MeowingCat> i hope it won't stop somewhere
21:16:17 <endogenic> as for privacy tradeoffs, well, you just run your own server
21:16:26 <endogenic> and the txs afaik are not more identifiable beyond that
21:16:36 <endogenic> it's supposed to be "native" monero 
21:16:45 <endogenic> MeowingCat: woooo
21:16:49 <MeowingCat> idk how Monero UTXOs work
21:16:52 <endogenic> yeah i noticed another missing include myself
21:16:56 <endogenic> well, team member did
21:17:00 <endogenic> <memory> in wipeable_string.h
21:17:02 <endogenic> gotta do a PR
21:17:06 <MeowingCat> and other things buttttt everyone is saying building Monero txs is extremely complicated
21:17:12 <endogenic> not sure how it happened for him and not me though to be honest
21:17:23 <endogenic> MeowingCat: it's not complicated if you know how
21:17:28 <MeowingCat> why there are codde errors in release??? :(((((((((((
21:17:44 <endogenic> because only a couple people actually try to embed monero code
21:17:47 <endogenic> well, couple libraries
21:17:55 <MeowingCat> ohh another error
21:18:03 <endogenic> feel free to DM me fwiw
21:18:12 <endogenic> maybe i should make a new IRC room tho
21:18:19 <endogenic> if this is annoying
21:18:32 <MeowingCat> i don't think so because here is silent
21:19:41 <endogenic> this room is more-so for dev on monero code itself
21:19:50 <endogenic> rather than solving build errors in a third party's lib
21:19:53 <endogenic> in/on/using
21:20:05 <nikg83[m]> endogenic: When pr to lws ? 
21:20:11 <endogenic> not gonna pr to lws
21:20:14 <endogenic> but gonna pr to meta
21:20:16 <endogenic> to lws spec
21:20:20 <endogenic> i have a few of them
21:20:28 <endogenic> soon(tm) trying to do a couple other things for the moment
21:21:39 <UkoeHB> nothing wrong with C++, it's a tool that can be misused like any other tool (plenty of trash C out there)
21:21:53 <endogenic> losing a team member (family emergency) so i have to try to do a couple things asap
21:22:26 <MeowingCat> included limits
21:22:29 <MeowingCat> now another error
21:22:43 <MeowingCat> im feeling like shit how this is a release :(((((((((((((((((
21:23:03 <endogenic> share your (c)makefile plox
21:23:15 <endogenic> :)
21:23:32 <MeowingCat> https://github.com/mymonero/mymonero-core-cpp/blob/master/CMakeLists.txt
21:23:52 <endogenic> that makefile builds test targets
21:23:55 <endogenic> not your application target
21:23:59 <endogenic> are you trying to use it?
21:24:10 <endogenic> it's good feedback, if you are
21:24:14 <endogenic> means i gotta document that better
21:24:17 <MeowingCat> just doing cmake and cmake --build
21:24:23 <endogenic> oh, in that repo?
21:24:27 <MeowingCat> yessss
21:24:34 <endogenic> oh ok good to know, 1sec
21:24:34 <MeowingCat> in build direcotry
21:24:54 <endogenic> this is a build script fwiw
21:24:55 <endogenic> https://github.com/mymonero/mymonero-core-cpp/blob/master/bin/buildAndRun_tests
21:25:05 <MeowingCat> yessss
21:25:27 <endogenic> yeah idk why that's erroring for you. i havent tried that repo recently. i also am probably on a different dev env than you
21:25:51 <endogenic> i mean, i can tell you
21:25:57 <endogenic> actually nevermind
21:26:11 <endogenic> i was mistaken about what i was just thinking lol
21:26:47 <endogenic> maybe something else needs to be included in find_package(…) under your dev system
21:27:50 <chesterfield[m]> <endogenic> "but gonna pr to meta" <- Does this mean there will be code available for people to run an lws-like thing on their own or not?  I can’t tell if you’re going to release code or a custodial solution
21:28:33 <endogenic> chesterfield[m]: there already exists a monero-lws impl but i think justin hasn't released his code for implementing subaddrs on it yet since he was waiting on people to OK his/our meta spec PR proposing the shape of subaddrs on the LWS API
21:28:54 <endogenic> as for me we've built internally a new LWS implementation from scratch and it already does subaddrs
21:29:04 <endogenic> and new client code that fully supports it, which will be open source
21:29:28 <endogenic> github.com/vtnerd/monero-lws
21:32:57 <chesterfield[m]> Cool so you’re doing a closed source custodial implementation with an open source client api?
21:33:08 <endogenic> it's not custodial of the spend key
21:33:44 <endogenic> it's just for user convenience. i am highly prioritizing client side scanning after that
21:34:03 <chesterfield[m]> Closed source non-custodial.  Got it 👌
21:34:08 <endogenic> for the server yeah
21:34:18 <endogenic> it's all just to support something else i'm building lol
21:35:21 <nikg83[m]> endogenic: Why so much secrecy on what you are building 😅
21:35:26 <endogenic> oh yeah sorry
21:35:32 <endogenic> i forgot to reply to that
21:36:10 <chesterfield[m]> Monero could really use a good open source light wallet server.  Hope you reconsider releasing the code for it.
21:37:41 <nikg83[m]> endogenic: So the specs will be presented and a open source implementation will be done on lws? There is a do not merge pr for subadress, is that waiting this specs ?
21:37:46 <endogenic> there are the typical reasons why companies like Apple would keep something secret before they release it, and then there are other reasons right now specific to my situation related to precautions I've been taking to protect myself, the code itself, and protect the emergence of a project that's being built on the code that I want the community to be able to have. finally for the scanning server i investigated foreign incorp.
21:38:06 <endogenic> so that if we held viewkeys for any new users that the jurisdiction would provide optimal insulation against e.g. dragnet surveillance
21:38:16 <endogenic> i spent a lot of money out of pocket researching that already tbh :P
21:38:37 <endogenic> it's going to have to wait, though, partially due to being slightly resource cautious presently
21:38:42 <endogenic> even though i found the answer
21:38:53 <endogenic> chesterfield[m]: i said one already exists
21:38:56 <endogenic> vtnerd is an excellent engineer
21:39:20 <endogenic> i dont know how i could improve vtnerd as an engineer lol .. put it to you like that. 
21:39:28 <endogenic> he's like 9 or 10/10
21:39:51 <endogenic> nikg83[m]: the spec has existed for many years 
21:39:55 <endogenic> it's part of monero meta 
21:39:59 <moneromooo> Lessen his focus on speeding up stuff that doesn't show up in the profile ^_^
21:40:01 <endogenic> and many servers implement it now
21:40:31 <UkoeHB> moneromooo: lol
21:40:32 <moneromooo> (but generally, I agree he's pretty good)
21:44:09 <MeowingCat> does libwallet.a have things to build and sign transactions???
21:48:57 <chesterfield[m]> <endogenic> "there are the typical reasons..." <- Centralized light wallet servers are bad for Monero (until we get seraphis limited view keys)
21:49:45 <endogenic> sure if you dont trust the operator and if the setup is insecure
21:49:55 <chesterfield[m]> No, they’re bad period.
21:49:59 <endogenic> proof?
21:50:42 <chesterfield[m]> Proof that an entity with a desirable product that has thousands of view keys is bad for privacy of the system as a whole?
21:51:17 <endogenic> yeah i mean what does that have to do with centralized scanners. sounds like a monero flaw to me
21:51:24 <endogenic> whatever happened to pragmatism
21:51:28 <endogenic> you guys remember that?
21:51:35 <endogenic> whatever that was
21:52:01 <endogenic> anyway, guess who funded vtnerd/monero-lws initially?
21:52:02 <moneromooo> libwallet.a does have stuff to build and sign transactions.
21:52:47 <chesterfield[m]> I don’t have a problem with lws, but I do have a problem with trusted entities holding thousands of view keys
21:52:59 <endogenic> you have a problem with untrusted entities
21:53:28 <endogenic> people will choose to use a centralized server like choosing venmo or paypal
21:53:35 <chesterfield[m]> If you’re not allowing people to selfhost your lws solution, you’re undermining system privacy
21:54:00 <endogenic> if it compromises others' privacy then you need to realize you're saying people shouldnt hack your vulnerable system
21:54:12 <endogenic> monero has many such attack surfaces
21:54:16 <nikg83[m]> endogenic: hence the need for decentralised lws, you might feel users need another mymonero but it won’t be that well accepted 
21:54:16 <endogenic> related to ring sigs
21:54:46 <plowsof> RINO has entered the chat 
21:54:49 <endogenic> nikg83[m]: there already exists decentralized scanners , what is not getting through to you about that
21:54:59 <endogenic> my infra is for private customers
21:55:14 <endogenic> and yes it can do multisig
21:55:21 <UkoeHB> guys, drifting off-topic for this channel
21:55:24 <endogenic> indeed
21:55:35 <endogenic> thanks