13:53:49 <plowsof11> jeffro's ccs proposal awaiting feedback :) https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/390
14:55:53 <Iwjsks[m]> Can I ask something hypothetical? If let's say the EU or another country or block of countries would come to the community to express concerns of money laundering and using XMR for criminal purposes, would the community be willing to work with the EU let's say to address these concerns? Not making the privacy weaker but perhaps using something like ZKPs or something else to prove that transactions are not being used for harmful activitie
14:56:01 <Iwjsks[m]> Just a genuine question that popped up in my head 
14:56:24 <Iwjsks[m]> I'm still quite new here and learning so please don't kill me for asking this if it's stupid 
15:02:14 <moneromooo> The problem is, they're abusing their power to spy massively, so there is no trust left. That's why monero exists, really. To try and claw *some* privacy back.
15:03:03 <moneromooo> Ideally preventing serious crimes seems like a good idea, but I don't think it's feasible without opening the door to all the abuses they're doing now.
15:04:20 <moneromooo> There is *one* way I can see, but it also makes monero fairly useless: somehow ensuring that the monero market cap stays low.
15:06:15 <moneromooo> I had been thinking of a chain with "weak" crypto, so that a tx could be brute forced, so the spying could only be done on select txes, and wholesale spying becomes prohibitively expensive. but how to tune this ? Impossible really.
15:06:37 <moneromooo> You'd have to know (and predict) how much power the would be spies can afford to let rip.
15:07:18 <moneromooo> And since they have essentially unlimited money to throw at it (if they need more, they can tax you more, so in effect you pay to break your own privacy), it seems like a non starter.
15:08:10 <moneromooo> The "solutions" I've seen are basically "trust us". Like escrow. Laughale. Fool me once... it's like fool me 300 times by now.
15:08:55 <moneromooo> It's a kind of evolution in action too.
15:09:10 <moneromooo> They spy on everyone, creating evolutionary pressure for people to protect themselves.
15:09:37 <moneromooo> This in turn means they will adapt and try to find purchase on new tech.
15:10:17 <moneromooo> Unfortunately, criminals are more in need of privacy than the average joe, so they'll be some of the first to adopt.
15:10:44 <moneromooo> So by their mass spying, they themselves end up pushing criminals to be *better* defended by average.
15:10:54 <Iwjsks[m]> I see 
15:10:55 <Iwjsks[m]> I entirely agree generally Lagarde said she wants to make illegal to pay with cash above 1000€
15:11:52 <moneromooo> It is not unexpected. It also the hallmark of a non free society, when stuff is assumed illegal unless proved illegal. 
15:12:22 <moneromooo> Illegal to pay case, because if you do you're not spied on, and the purchase you made is deemed to have been likely illegal.
15:13:01 <moneromooo> It is also expediency I think. Or dishonesty.
15:13:07 <moneromooo> Could be both, but:
15:14:10 <moneromooo> Expediency: they cannot enforce laws on preventing (as an example) drug trafficking: so they go for hte next best thing: money transfers. Though that is not illegal, they will be made illegal to have a secondary effect. The ends justifies the means.
15:14:41 <moneromooo> Dishonesty: maybe they don't actually care about the claimed crimes, they just want to spy in the first place.
15:15:28 <moneromooo> I mean, that second one sounds like paranoia, but so many countries crack down on cannabis hard for what ? It seems like such a waste of resources if that really is the goal.
15:16:03 <moneromooo> Anyway, lack of trust is the big problem here. They're hardly ever honest and can't be trusted.
15:17:08 <moneromooo> It seems like every law about spying is voted in to be used for terrorism, child porn, hard drugs, etc, and soon enough it starts being used for less and less until it's used for everything.
15:17:54 <moneromooo> There is a *constant* pressure to push more and more for more spying. They *never* stop. Step by step. It's like a fucking bulldozer without a driver.
15:19:14 <moneromooo> They're counting on generations. A generation every what, 25 years ? People born 10 years ago are now used to having cameras all over the place. They'll be much less likely to wtf at more privacy violations that those of us born 40 years ago, because they've been conditioned now.
15:20:55 <moneromooo> But hey, you never know, maybe there's a magic crypto wand somewhere that can give us a good enough way to sort.
15:21:27 <moneromooo> I doubt it though, because the problem is one of legality (not even ethics/morals), so that's orthogonal to tech.
15:23:09 <moneromooo> Hmm. I have this crazy wtf idea...
15:23:43 <moneromooo> Current ML models are famous for being totally inscrutable.
15:24:22 <moneromooo> Train a future one that's even more black box, and it gets to know the details of every tx. It is basically the "chain" for a new currency.
15:24:48 <moneromooo> It knows who sent to whom, etc, and can therefore ensure you only spend what you own, etc.
15:24:57 <moneromooo> So black box, noone can RE it to spy.
15:24:59 <moneromooo> BUT
15:25:46 <moneromooo> It has somehow been imbued with ethics. And if you give it convincing arguments that a particular tx is linked to serious crime, it can disclose the data.
15:26:03 <moneromooo> But if you ask it for more txes, it just tells you to sit on it.
15:26:44 <moneromooo> It's basically escrow, but with a black box alien rather than the asshole govt who's spying on you in the first place.
15:27:17 <moneromooo> (or with the sleazy corp that claims to be a honest third party but who'll sell your data if it's not pwned already before it does so)
15:27:31 <moneromooo> But hey, that's science fiction. For now.
15:28:24 <moneromooo> I suspect that the need for 100% certainty for no double spending or spending fictitious money would mean that part of hte black box would become not so black as a result, negating the protection.
15:29:11 <moneromooo> It's kinda sad, that we have to expend this kind of work just because there are so many fucking assholes who spy on everything we do.
15:29:46 <moneromooo> And I'm sure they're thinking it's kinda sad they have to spy on all of us because they are so many fucking assholes doing serious crime. Shrug.
15:30:17 <moneromooo> Actually, no. They probably don't. They're thinking it's kinda sad they have to *work* at spying instead of just looking.
15:31:15 <moneromooo> Anyway. Sometimes I hope some big privacy hullaballo drops and people wake up and start thinking wtf have I done, let me protect my privacy now.
15:31:42 <moneromooo> And then snowden and Cambridge analytica happens, and people just continue not giving a rat's ass. It's so fucking depressing.
15:32:23 <moneromooo> What's needed now ? China to invade and know exactly when to launch the nano-ICBMs at individual people ?
15:32:45 <moneromooo> Apologies for the rant. It's so... easy... to get into it :D
15:33:08 <moneromooo> s/when to launch/where to launch/
15:33:38 <moneromooo> (and yes, that's in reference to the nazis using a database withe religion after invading can't recall which N europe country)
15:35:47 <moneromooo> And your original question mentioned money laundering: let me just rant one last time about this: money laundering is... a fancy word meaning "not giving the spies full info about your money". It's basically a synonym for "privacy about your finances", given a new name so people don't autonatically go "wait, wat ?"
15:36:47 <moneromooo> At some point, they'll move into something else. Like "location privacy". You'll be assumed to be up to no good if you go out without a working phone.
15:37:13 <moneromooo> Which, as an aside, I believe was already used as an argument in court, though that's just my failing memory and I have no source url to share.
15:37:27 <moneromooo> They'll find another name for it, and call it a crime.
15:38:11 <moneromooo> There are new laws too in some places saying it's illegal to be in certain places with your face covered. NOT if you're committing a crime at the same time. Just having your face covered.
15:38:36 <moneromooo> It's illegal to protect yourself against automated face recog cameras tracking your movements.
15:39:03 <moneromooo> Depends on the jurisdiction, on the particular location, etc, but it'll get more and more widespread.
15:39:45 <moneromooo> And of course the databases with all that will get leaked at some point.
15:40:08 <moneromooo> I'll also add in there that usually politicians voting this shite carve out a little out for themselves.
15:40:29 <moneromooo> Because the little shits do realize it's an outrageous imposition.
15:41:23 <moneromooo> But hey, at least I can still say something like this without getting invited for tea at the nearest police station. For now.
15:41:49 <moneromooo> (that tells you I am not located in China. Long may it continue)
15:43:57 <moneromooo> BTW, since I did mention China. There is a trend of Chinese equipment being used for mass spying in western countries. Even Chinese companies being hired to process some of it.
15:44:49 <moneromooo> And of course the usual offshoring. "Your data will not be shared with third parties" is typically a load of bullshit. Your data will get shared with subcontractors at will. Put on Amazon servers. etc.
15:45:32 <moneromooo> The people saying it sometimes don't care about whether it's true, sometimes don't even realize it's not true.
15:45:53 <moneromooo> Well, I guess sometimes it is true also I suppose. They're not *all* fucking assholes.
15:46:23 <moneromooo> But with everything in "the cloud" nowadays, it's super easy for a "config error" to leak it all.
15:46:48 <moneromooo> And yes, that did happen to me personally. I got fucked at least once (probably many more I never learned out).
15:47:53 <moneromooo> I suppose I'm lucky I get to care about my privacy. It means I don't have to care about missiles dropping on me. Good time.s
15:52:09 <woodser[m]> nice rant
16:04:19 <jonjones2000[m]> Is it possible to run a monero node over tor?
16:05:17 <moneromooo> Yes.
16:05:32 <moneromooo> There is a doc in ANONYMITY_NETWORKS.md
16:08:02 <jonjones2000[m]> moneromooo: Is that a website?
16:08:28 <moneromooo> It is a file in the monero repo.
16:09:00 <jonjones2000[m]> moneromooo: Ok thanks.  Like a tutorial?
16:09:25 <moneromooo> Can't remember very well. Read it and tell us :)
16:09:34 <moneromooo> But it's what I used to set up mine.
16:10:24 <jonjones2000[m]> moneromooo: Ok great.  I had heard there is something callled dandelion.  Which doesnt allow you run a monero node over tor.  Glad to hear you did it successfully?
16:10:41 <jonjones2000[m]> jonjones2000[m]: This is the repo in github right?
16:11:08 <jonjones2000[m]> <moneromooo> "There is a doc in ANONYMITY_NETW..." <- This is the repo in github?
16:14:15 <moneromooo> Yes.
16:14:55 <moneromooo> Dandelion does not prevent running over tor AFAIK. It is also not needed when using tor since it's really a poor man's tor for txes.
16:15:20 <jonjones2000[m]> moneromooo: Thank you for your help.  So its possible to run as hidden service?
16:15:25 <moneromooo> Yes.
16:15:59 <jonjones2000[m]> moneromooo: Thank you
16:26:37 <Alex|LocalMonero> <moneromooo> "Current ML models are famous for..." <- To be fair to machines, biological models are pretty inscrutable as well. Even the simpler ones.
16:30:50 <moneromooo> In the context of the point above, the comparison is not salient since one would not have to reverse engineer information from the biological system unwillingly.
16:31:12 <moneromooo> There are ways to convince the biological system to volunteer the information outright.
16:33:42 <moneromooo> A closer comparison could be to a large bureaucracy, which could conceivably be put in charge of escrow. I find it amusing to imagine spies trying to convince a huge bureaucracy to get them the info they want...
16:34:26 <moneromooo> (of course it would not happen in pratice, they'll have god mode in there, but still, fun to imagine)
16:35:40 <moneromooo> Actually, a judicial system is supposed to be such a system currently. There are checks and balances supposed to shield us. You have to convince a judge. Ideally. 
16:36:13 <moneromooo> In practice it a rusty sieve made of cheap cardboard with bullet holes in it.
16:38:07 <moneromooo> IF that judicial system was black box enough that you had to get through it to get the data (instead of just grabbing the data) and IF you could not find a pliant judge to rubberstamp your stuff and IF you could not just change the law to see "the home secretary's will is god's will", then it would be a similar system.
16:38:37 <moneromooo> The black box AI is really an attempt at such a checlks and balances system that annot be subverted (or isn't smoke and mirrors in the first place).
16:39:10 <moneromooo> Gedanken experiment anyway. Can't happen with what we have now...
16:39:40 <Alex|LocalMonero> <moneromooo> "There are ways to convince the..." <- Yeah but it's pretty easy to jailbreak a LLM as well.
16:39:55 <moneromooo> Yes. Hence Can't happen with what we have now.
16:39:57 <Alex|LocalMonero> I'd argue it's way easier.
16:40:05 <Alex|LocalMonero> Right.
16:40:48 <moneromooo> But now seems like the Cambrian explosion of those systems. A lot of new stuff, the overwhelming majority will die out.
16:41:36 <moneromooo> It's a breadth first exploration of a few levels. In a few years, we might have a few that continue and evolve into something a lot sturdier.
16:41:54 <moneromooo> And then it'll slow down again.
16:42:35 <moneromooo> Evolution, again. It's everywhere if you look really.
16:42:59 <moneromooo> Find a new niche, rush in. Fill it, new pressures.
16:43:17 <moneromooo> It is fascinating.
16:44:32 <moneromooo> Cryptocurrencies are also that. Maybe I'm having pareidolia though.
16:46:47 <Alex|LocalMonero> No, you're right. It's the free market's selection pressures that are driving the extinction of most projects that don't do something well. There's a lot of vaporware obviously, but to use your metaphor crypto is also in the cambrian explosion phase, so most will go extinct.
16:47:10 <Alex|LocalMonero> I think we should move this discussion to offtopic, though.
17:49:25 <midipoet> who is gonna tell them off for going off-topic in the -dev channel?
17:55:50 <moneromooo> Sorry. moneromooo: that way ->
18:09:22 <Rucknium[m]> Iwjsks: There are about 4 research papers about creating a Monero-like system but authorities would have a "master view key": https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-research-lab/20230411
18:10:09 <Rucknium[m]> At least I think the papers propose to use a master view key. I did not look at the papers closely.
19:44:54 <woodser[m]> does anyone know if it's possible to connect to clearnet monerods from wallets using a tor proxy (via the --proxy startup flag) ?
19:47:00 <woodser[m]> I'd like to connect a wallet to clearnet monerods through tor using --proxy, but the wallet is indicating an error when the destination monerod is clearnet instead of onion
19:47:30 <woodser[m]> indicating a connection error, that is
20:07:38 <woodser[m]> nevermind, pretty sure the answer is no, it's not supported
20:09:24 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Like going out a exit node?
20:15:14 <woodser[m]> as in, starting the wallet with a socks5 tor proxy, setting its daemon to a clearnet daemon, and the traffic is routed through tor. it's not working for me, which could be because it's not supported in monero-project and how my proxy is configured
21:04:50 <moneromooo> monerod won't care whether the client comes from a tor exit node or not.