13:46:20 <nikg83[m]> Simple mode still connects to random nodes ?
13:57:20 <Lyza> well it uses a local daemon in bootstrap mode so indirectly but yeah
14:02:33 <nikg83[m]> <Lyza> "well it uses a local daemon in..." <- And we know about malicious nodes for some time now, why haven’t we removed it ? 
14:04:53 <monerobull[m]> Because the UX of having to wait what could be multiple days before seeing incoming transactions outweighs the unlikely scenario that the users privacy is harmed by a malicious node?
14:05:32 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: So we allow malicious nodes to give bad decoys ? 
14:05:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Jeffro was to do some work towards that (a trusted/community node system), but seems he was unable to finish successfully
14:06:14 <nikg83[m]> Why simple node, make users input their remote node if they want to use one
14:06:33 <monerobull[m]> Then everyone just used cakewallet nodes lol
14:06:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> thats what happens typically
14:07:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> People download wallet > use default node 
14:07:04 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: Is it worse than connecting to unreliable malicious nodes ?
14:07:30 <monerobull[m]> Centralizing most users to the nodes of one corporate entity located in the USA?
14:07:34 <monerobull[m]> Hell yes it is
14:07:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its not good and if it is all centralized to 10 nodes running on 3 vps, yeah, pretty bad 
14:08:23 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: And bulk of malicious node are run by some African government 
14:08:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> American*
14:08:50 <monerobull[m]> I'd like to see real evidence before saying "throw out remote nodes all together"
14:09:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> We have over over a thousand sybils if you just count lurkinglion
14:09:36 <monerobull[m]> We do know telling everyone to provide their own node will 100% lead to most people connecting to cake nodes
14:09:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> (And include ipv6)
14:09:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> 750 just ipv4 (known)
14:09:58 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: You can wait for the evidence and keep ignoring the fact that using random malicious nodes exist on the network 
14:10:02 <monerobull[m]> The chance of getting harmed by a malicious node is probably way lower 
14:10:36 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: Put a page on getmonero without cake nodes or American IPs if you are so paranoid of cake 
14:10:55 <monerobull[m]> Then everyone will just use the node at the top of that list
14:11:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> Cant centralize on cake, imo need to avoid the already known biggest nodes
14:11:13 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: Random listing ? Is it that hard 
14:11:20 <monerobull[m]> It's just not a viable approach when you want decentralization 
14:11:41 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: Running own node is the only way to be decentralised 
14:11:44 <nikg83[m]> Not connecting to some random node
14:12:01 <nikg83[m]> And you can’t even see what node you are connected to
14:12:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> Any use of random nodes should be and has always been discoraged
14:12:03 <monerobull[m]> That's what I do. And my friends connect to my node
14:12:28 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: But you want others to keep using random nodes 😅
14:12:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> Random, not remote
14:12:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> trusted nodes can be remote and not run by you
14:13:02 <monerobull[m]> No, people who seriously need max privacy will know not to use random nodes
14:13:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> Like bull said, friends and family can use my node and trust im not messing around 
14:13:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> But if they download gui, they shoulnt auto connect to sybils (or whatever these are)
14:13:37 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: So you want ppl to feel monero is privacy but have default simple mode connecting to some random node 
14:13:38 <monerobull[m]> You can't make the UX way worse just because uneducated people won't get max privacy 
14:13:52 <monerobull[m]> It's a balance
14:13:53 <nikg83[m]> s/is/has/
14:14:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> The ux of simple mode is a mistake 
14:14:18 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: So you don’t want those uneducated users have privacy ?
14:14:27 <monerobull[m]> Look
14:14:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> As long as nodes dont have to follow consensus rules, any non trusted node should be avoided 
14:14:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Nodes can serve you bad, stale, or even template decoys
14:15:06 <monerobull[m]> The alternative is that the uneducated users say "wtf why doesn't this shit show up in my wallet" and then use Bitcoin or Litecoin or whatever chain where they have zero privacy at all
14:15:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> And thats old news ^ i dont knkw what this current exploit is, but i inagine its notably worse 
14:15:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> monerobull[m]: Thats what happens in simple mlde
14:15:52 <monerobull[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: I'm pretty sure enforcing the decoy selection Algo is on the list
14:15:53 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: If they need privacy they will learn & if we want to be lazy and not improve ux than keep this simple mode 
14:16:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> A lot of "why wont my wallet sync " and answer is "add selsta2.feather node"
14:16:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> Which means user connected to a bad node 
14:16:16 <nikg83[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Yep lot of complains in telegram 
14:16:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> Which is not good
14:16:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> I should never, ever, dox myself accidentally 
14:16:58 <monerobull[m]> Telegram is exactly the same situation but worse, people thinking they have privacy but actually no e2ee
14:17:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> Maybe if simple mode was onion only or something, but you connect in the clear to sybils 
14:17:57 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: Telegram isn’t used to send some monero payment, we are talking about simple mode where user connects to a random node 
14:18:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> some forks, like haven, ship their own node
14:18:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> And as a result, there are like 15 nodes on the entire network
14:18:35 <monerobull[m]> Great. Exactly what we need
14:18:37 <ofrnxmr[m]> Own remote node*
14:18:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Nodes are run by haven and mining pools
14:19:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> Cake doesnt even run a haven node
14:19:11 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: You force users to manually put remote node or run their own node 
14:19:31 <monerobull[m]> That's garbage Ux and people will leave monero for it
14:19:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> If they want tk use a spy node, monero.fail can serve em a list
14:19:36 <monerobull[m]> Way too much friction 
14:20:12 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: As if we have millions of users
14:20:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or just change the name lf simoke mode to "this ks probably a spy node mode"
14:20:24 <nikg83[m]> Using monero-gui
14:20:27 <nikg83[m]> Most use cake n monerujo
14:20:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> This-is-probably-a-spy-node is a real monero flag