00:02:58 <QuickBASIC> pauliouk: "Im still shareless :(" what's your he?
00:03:10 <QuickBASIC> s/he/hr
00:44:04 <xmrvsbeast[m]> > Im still shareless :(
00:44:04 <xmrvsbeast[m]> We will need multiple side chain levels so lower hash miners can pool their hash to find shares...
00:49:20 <QuickBASIC> Oh wow sech1. Monero talk episode about p2pool?  Nice.
01:19:09 <xmrvsbeast[m]> like if you set diff < 100,000 then you go to level 2 chain and mine to get a level 1 chain share
01:25:47 <hyc> would that really make any difference? keep your shares from falling out of the pplns window?
01:27:09 <xmrvsbeast[m]> I think it would attract more miners as they would see more regular payouts
01:28:19 <xmrvsbeast[m]> now a 5kh/s miners can go days with nothing, if p2pool goes over 200mh/s small miners will not even bother
01:29:46 <hyc> that would still be the case. if the pool has lower hashrate, it won't be finding blocks often enough to pay out
01:30:59 <xmrvsbeast[m]> well the l2 chain would be pooling and will find l1 shares more often which would result in l2 miners being paid more often, I think..
01:35:07 <hyc> I'm pretty sure if you do the math it will turn out identical either way
01:36:06 <hyc> the upper limit on payout frequency also depends on the payout threshold, and if you lower it too much the coinbase txns will get too large
01:36:32 <hyc> of course the coinbase txns can never pay out to more addresses than the pplns window size
01:37:30 <xmrvsbeast[m]> oh that is true :(
02:23:16 <garth> Kind of a few interesting errors here: https://paste.Debian.net/1211326
04:31:42 <provsalt> p2pool is now listed on https://miningpoolstats.stream/monero
06:11:16 <mightysnowman> the monero god blessed me so hard https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/g6gMQyHO/
06:13:06 <mightysnowman> wait nvm actually
06:13:25 <mightysnowman> the shares were from the syncing againnn
07:21:23 <mandelbug> Can I just check that I am updating correctly my P2Pool? Git Pull, cd build, cmake .. and then make and re-run? I just did this but don't see the (empty) share progress
07:50:24 <xmrvsbeast[m]> I think the share position display is only there if you have at least 1 found share
09:13:01 <provsalt> didn't know there was a matrix chat so gonna get out of irc
09:35:23 <DataHoarder> mandelbug: remember to update submodules too 
09:35:52 <DataHoarder> and yes the displays don’t show if you haven’t found a share or uncle yet
10:01:47 <DataHoarder> sech1: are you looking for IPv6 seed nodes too?
10:38:00 <URoRRuRRR[m]> So I'm a small miner ~7kh I see shares appear when I first start p2pool then nothing is seems and no payouts - Is that to be expected?
10:41:01 <DataHoarder> yes, those shares are just from catching up on sidechain URoRRuRRR[m] 
10:41:10 <DataHoarder> and they have lower diff
10:41:58 <URoRRuRRR[m]> So I guess I just need to wait and see what happens
10:44:11 <DataHoarder> 7kh might take a while indeed
10:44:41 <DataHoarder> then your share counts for around 6h, PPLNS window (2160 side chain blocks)
10:44:58 <DataHoarder> any block found during that time gives you a payout
10:45:32 <DataHoarder> 61MH/s at this moment, heh
10:46:15 <URoRRuRRR[m]> I had one payout early on but I've been messing about with my set up so I guess I got lucky
10:46:24 <DataHoarder> Your shares               = 5 blocks (+0 uncles, 0 orphans)
10:46:24 <DataHoarder> Your shares position      = [1..1......1...1..........1....]
10:46:25 <DataHoarder> Block reward share        = 0.231% (0.002009034066 XMR)
10:46:46 <DataHoarder> got bad luck during the night and ended up with just 1 share over a window :<
10:47:04 <DataHoarder> yeah, over time it all averages out URoRRuRRR[m] 
10:47:32 <DataHoarder> at least it is kind of easier for small miners to get an actual payout here, given lower threshold
10:48:09 <DataHoarder> as usually on pools you would need to match higher accumulated amounts over long time, and trust they don't run with it / attack happens and it was not competently stored
10:48:53 <DataHoarder> moved from MO to p2pool as soon as I saw it was testing on mainnet, didn't mind losing some hashrate to testing :)
10:49:14 <URoRRuRRR[m]> Luckily I don't pay for power so this is just for fun anyway 
10:49:20 <DataHoarder> that is the way
10:49:32 <DataHoarder> and now you also run more nodes that create their own templates
12:55:02 <sech1> nice, I scaled down to 9 kh/s, got 2 shares this morning and it's the 3rd block that paid for both
12:56:42 <xmrvsbeast[m]> good to see you can still get something < 10kh/s
13:00:44 <sech1> so it was essentially paying like I had 54 kh/s
13:00:53 <sech1> now I only have 1 share in the window
13:05:21 <DataHoarder> new block!
13:11:42 <pauliouk> I landed a share over night :) unfortunately I still haven't seen the new status window :P
13:11:45 <xmrvsbeast[m]> we need a bot in here to announce new blocks 😀 
13:11:50 <hyc> uh. I got 10 payouts since the last time I checked. pretty sure I checked yesterday, so, 10 in 24hrs??
13:12:05 <hyc> or maybe I forgot to check yesterday and it's 48hrs
13:12:20 <mightysnowman> And now comes my unlucky week
13:12:40 <mightysnowman> After getting 2 shares
13:13:04 <hyc> 1157 blocks
13:13:40 <DataHoarder> xmrvsbeast[m]: working on it :), might make a channel later
13:14:38 <pauliouk> could have it announce when theres a new miner on the pool too
13:14:54 <DataHoarder> maybe, we will see
13:15:04 <DataHoarder> maybe share subscription so it pings you :>
13:15:07 <hyc> ah sep 10 was definitely luckier than usual, 6 wins. and 4 yesterday which is usual
13:18:33 <provsalt[m]> DataHoarder: damn you beat me to it
13:18:59 <DataHoarder> just making something that doesn't depend on logs :<
13:21:01 <DataHoarder> new block!
13:21:34 <DataHoarder> 3 blocks in 30 minutes? nice
13:22:43 <provsalt[m]> what kind of luck is this lol
13:22:50 <DataHoarder> normal luck
13:31:16 <pauliouk> top 10 on https://miningpoolstats.stream/monero
13:31:37 <pauliouk> but not listed on pools.xmr.wiki  which comes up as first on google
13:57:16 <DataHoarder> pauliouk: "chat" link forwards to #monero-pools here, so probably it's already known
13:58:21 <DataHoarder> yay Your shares position      = [2.........1.....1..1......1...]
14:07:17 <sech1> Height: 2447106/2447106 (100.0%) on mainnet, not mining, net hash 2.98 GH/s, v14, 58(out)+553(in) connections, uptime 2d 23h 33m 15s
14:07:28 <sech1> hmm, is it normal? 553 incoming connections to monerod?
14:08:00 <DataHoarder> that is quite a lot
14:08:09 <DataHoarder> did you announce as --public?
14:08:13 <sech1> No
14:08:26 <sech1> but it runs on the same server as p2pool.io so maybe this is why
14:08:40 <DataHoarder> could be
14:12:21 <sech1> My node was receiving new blocks slowly, sometimes with 10 seconds delay
14:12:37 <DataHoarder> inb4 the attacks start
14:12:47 <sech1> I just closed port 18080
14:13:01 <sech1> only outgoing connections + selsta's block list for now
14:14:02 <sech1> and --add-priority-node=node.supportxmr.com:18080
14:15:44 <DataHoarder> so, can an uncle have uncles, I think I asked but can't remember
14:17:06 <pauliouk> Height: 2447112/2447112 (100.0%) on mainnet, not mining, net hash 2.99 GH/s, v14, 12(out)+0(in) connections, uptime 1d 2h 48m 29s
14:17:06 <pauliouk>  I've only got 12
14:17:19 <DataHoarder> that is out connections
14:17:27 <DataHoarder> do you have in connections enabled & forwarded?
14:17:50 <pauliouk> Yup
14:17:59 <pauliouk> unless the router's ignoring upnp
14:19:11 <pauliouk> hmm which it is
14:19:14 <DataHoarder> wouldn't trust upnp
14:19:41 <pauliouk> yeah think it only lasts 24 hours on the router
14:20:56 <pauliouk> 8 out, 1 in
14:21:04 <pauliouk> seemed to do the trick
14:40:33 <QuickBASIC> pauliouk "I still haven't seen the new status window :P" I'm honestly tempted to s/our_blocks_in_window_total > 0/our_blocks_in_window_total >= 0/ just so I can see it. :-P
14:42:06 <DataHoarder> here QuickBASIC I'll give one for you
14:42:32 <QuickBASIC> Haha quickbasic.xyz:3333 lol (don't really have to)
14:42:37 <DataHoarder> Your shares position      = [..............................]
14:42:56 <QuickBASIC> Ah... much better. Now I know what it looks like DataHoarder
14:43:00 <QuickBASIC> Thank you.
14:43:08 <pauliouk> :) worth it
14:43:13 <DataHoarder> I'll give you 10 minutes hashrate either way :)
14:43:49 <QuickBASIC> DataHoarder "I'll give you 10 minutes hashrate either way :)" I was just kidding, but if you want to haha.
14:45:33 <DataHoarder> maybe share, maybe not
14:45:54 <DataHoarder> Your shares position      = [.1.11.........1....1..1......1]
14:53:19 <DataHoarder> you probably got no share, rip
14:54:53 <DataHoarder> interestingly you can give someone shares just by their address on p2pool without having to connect to them, but it all syncs and shows proper
14:55:03 <DataHoarder> you can have a p2pool fully remote
14:55:17 <DataHoarder> and you don't have to connect to it to monitor your pool-wise hashrate
14:58:17 <QuickBASIC> DataHoarder . Hashrate (15m est) = 16.405 KH/s You crazy bastard I was kidding. Thank you though.
14:59:03 <DataHoarder> Probably more than that, it was a few seconds that ran with 50k diff, later I removed that to see if you got shares (but ofc did not report to p2pool)
14:59:26 <DataHoarder> think of it of XvB hash rate raffle
14:59:38 <QuickBASIC> Haha. Yeah I probably checked it late into the 15 window.
15:02:02 <QuickBASIC> DataHoarder: "and you don't have to connect to it to monitor your pool-wise hashrate" Yeah, but you can't see Stratumserver hashrate and if you rarely get pool shares, you'll just see 0
15:02:39 <DataHoarder> Yep, just mentioning it for maybe other people that just want to lock down their setup fully and still have some minimal monitoring abilities
15:05:43 <QuickBASIC> Yeah I noticed this the other day b/c I'm running p2pool locally and on VPS so my miners can mine locally if VPS hiccups or I'm rebuilding p2pool from source.
15:07:11 <QuickBASIC> Although once I learned you could hot swap a running executable on the filesystem and restart the process, I just scripted the compile, replace, restart the service and it's up again before my miners pool switch.
15:14:38 <DataHoarder> Yep, compile first, attach it later
15:15:01 <DataHoarder> you could have some xmrig proxy in front with two added so it automatically switches over temporarily 
15:19:34 <QuickBASIC> I was thinking about it, but the local p2pool instance is running on a 7 year old Celeron laptop with a spinning disk and 4GB of ram, so I'd probably not want it to be the proxy. 
15:30:00 <DataHoarder> it's not THAT bad, given the amount of shares it has to verify
15:37:40 <QuickBASIC> I'm just wondering how much data an advesary could gather by cycling through active miners in p2pool and recording shares on each address. Conceivably, the might could attach specific coinbase outputs to wallet addresses and add it to their statistical model. Not that they'd be able to track it beyond that.
15:41:08 <sech1> addresses and payouts are public
15:41:30 <sech1> because each p2pool node needs to check blocks from other nodes, including payouts
15:45:01 <QuickBASIC> sech1: "addresses and payouts are public" yes, I know, this is why we're using separate wallet, but in this case I was saying that the stealth address in the Coinbase can be linked to the real address. Are there any privacy implications of this?
15:45:42 <QuickBASIC> s/Coinbase/coinbase I wish my phone would stop doing that lol.
15:47:13 <DataHoarder> QuickBASIC: even if you could not link them, you know how much each "wallet" got due to share number
15:47:21 <DataHoarder> which adds a way to link the output
15:47:25 <DataHoarder> even if linked
15:47:37 <DataHoarder> it then gets spent by many other users on-chain
15:47:52 <DataHoarder> though you might want to avoid grabbing all of the outputs at once :)
15:48:21 <QuickBASIC> DataHoarder: "though you might want to avoid grabbing all of the outputs at once :)" why so?
15:49:06 <DataHoarder> statistically if they have all outputs linked to X address, and they all get exactly spent in the same transaction, they can probably with quite high certainty say "this is where they all got spent by X"
15:49:14 <DataHoarder> still doesn't say where it went to anyhow
15:49:56 <DataHoarder> it's the usual decoy game, but 100% of initial information is known
15:50:17 <DataHoarder> you can however do the sweep game as well
15:51:23 <QuickBASIC> What ring members are included for coinbase outputs that are sent? Isn't that first transfer going to stick out because it comes from a p2pool block?
15:52:33 <DataHoarder> TL;DR if you have many inputs all from p2pool payouts and you use them all at once, it's highly improbable someone else picked all those outputs as decoys
15:56:11 <sethsimmons> Outputs are too small to sweep single for small miners
15:56:28 <sethsimmons> Probably best to sweep all and then churn a few times before spending
15:56:37 <sethsimmons>  Every now and then
15:57:11 <DataHoarder> yups
16:03:42 <mandelbug> I can see the position share, now I have found shares :D thank you
16:04:56 <DataHoarder> yay
16:14:30 <sech1> "Are there any privacy implications of this?" Yes, all payouts can be linked to a wallet address, and spending from that wallet can be detected with high probability because it will almost always spend multiple coinbase outputs
16:15:13 <sech1> these coinbase outputs will be known as spent, and if someone else uses them in a ring, it will reduce effective ring size
16:17:05 <QuickBASIC> Ah makes sense.
16:19:33 <QuickBASIC> sech1 After hearing you talk about p2pool getting too large for smal miners on MoneroTalk, I was wondering it it would be possible or desirable
16:20:36 <QuickBASIC> to make a way to have a sidechain that disincentivizes large miners. Like diminishing returns for larger amounts of shares or limiting shares allowed per window.
16:21:27 <QuickBASIC> By IP or address, so it's literally impossible for a sidechain with so much hashrate it pushes out small miners
16:22:36 <DataHoarder> any amount of addresses can be generated QuickBASIC 
16:22:36 <QuickBASIC> That way you could have a "default" small miner pool that's not password protected, so small miners who want to pool their mining can do so without needing to seek each other out.
16:23:01 <DataHoarder> they can even have one address per template :)
16:23:20 <DataHoarder> sure it's a lot of output spam for large miners
16:23:31 <QuickBASIC> Yes, but it would be hard to have a separate IP per address though right?
16:26:12 <QuickBASIC> If p2pool nodes rejected peers that connect with a different payout address, but same IP, so you can't just cycle through addresses on same IP.
16:29:28 <sech1> nodes don't all connect to each other, it won't work
16:29:49 <sech1> limiting by IP will never work
16:30:39 <DataHoarder> QuickBASIC: the consensus should be based on chain data, not unverifiable data for other new clients after they reconnect
16:35:02 <QuickBASIC> Okay. Makes sense. So the solution for small miners is traditional pool mining then?
16:36:24 <jaska087> or just run another sidechain with other miners?
16:36:28 <DataHoarder> they will get the same payout on centralized pool minings than p2pool, maybe better on p2pool due to reaching threshold sooner
16:36:43 <DataHoarder> and yes, you can run a sidechain, you can make your own
16:36:59 <DataHoarder> but you will not find main blocks, and just have all the shares you want
16:37:29 <DataHoarder> where here if it grows more, if you find one share, it's good for about 6h, and whatever amount of blocks are found during that time
16:37:32 <QuickBASIC> jaska087: "or just run another sidechain with other miners?" Yes, but you'd have to seek out enough other miners to join that chain to find blocks.
16:38:04 <DataHoarder> remember that difficulty of side chain adjusts to be about 6h long for 2160 blocks atm
16:38:05 <jaska087> Though is there a reason why you can't extend the ppln window?
16:38:13 <DataHoarder> output size jaska087 
16:38:17 <jaska087> ah right
16:38:35 <DataHoarder> in the end, you get paid out the same in average
16:39:32 <DataHoarder> but also giving payouts via p2pool outputs is very cheap, at least for the "pool"
16:39:57 <jaska087> Well yes, but that also decreases mining rewards as no transaction fees are made
16:39:58 <jaska087> :)
16:40:25 <DataHoarder> well, we still include transactions
16:40:45 <DataHoarder> vs centralized pool payouts that have the full monero transaction setup
16:40:51 <DataHoarder> so they are pretty big
16:40:59 <QuickBASIC> Okay, so what happens when there's more than 2160 shares in a window? Does someone get left out?
16:41:05 <DataHoarder> what was it, 38 bytes per output on coinbase?
16:41:17 <DataHoarder> QuickBASIC: a window is 2160 shares atm
16:41:32 <DataHoarder> plus a few uncles
16:41:42 <QuickBASIC> Oh, they're one and the same.
16:42:04 <jaska087> pplns window is not 6h, its 2160 shares
16:42:08 <DataHoarder> ^
16:42:09 <jaska087> at avarage it should be around 6h
16:42:25 <DataHoarder> difficulty of sidechain will adjust to keep it at 6h average
16:42:35 <QuickBASIC> So share 0 gets dropped out when share 2160 gets added.
16:42:37 <DataHoarder> but it is measured in sidechain blocks
16:42:51 <DataHoarder> and that is where the "share position" visualization helps QuickBASIC 
16:43:05 <DataHoarder> Your shares               = 7 blocks (+0 uncles, 0 orphans)
16:43:05 <DataHoarder> Your shares position      = [2.......1.11.........1....1...]
16:43:09 <jaska087> every time a share is found, share numbre 2160 is dropped out
16:43:38 <jaska087> your shares are in queue, going further and further in line
16:44:10 <DataHoarder> (all worth the same, until dropped out)
16:44:28 <DataHoarder> heh overnight we hit 72MH/s
16:44:38 <DataHoarder> now 56
16:44:39 <QuickBASIC> Yeah, I understood that part, but somehow I didn't connect that each block _was_ a share for whoever  mines that block.
16:44:55 <DataHoarder> (and uncles, but that's an extra detail)
16:45:18 <DataHoarder> TL;DR you are basically merge mining
16:58:41 <QuickBASIC> sech1 DataHoarder jaska087 I hope I haven't annoyed you'all too much with questions. I just want to know because I'm sure I'm going to end up explaining it on Reddit a hundred times when binaries are released.
16:59:05 <QuickBASIC> But thank you all for answers.
16:59:17 <DataHoarder> should have a FAQ around shares/blocks/PPLNS and another about privacy of addresses
16:59:52 <jaska087> ^Specific to p2pool
17:00:16 <DataHoarder> yep
17:01:00 <hyc> since the amounts are so small, you still wind up waiting a long time for a usable amount. so the only difference is that the dust is in your wallet instead of the pool wallet
17:01:30 <hyc> so you can maybe sweep_all once/week to your real spending wallet
17:02:46 <QuickBASIC> hyc: "so you can maybe sweep_all once/week to your real spending wallet" for me once every month or so maybe since I've only got 6 payouts since we started.
18:15:33 * CzarekNakamoto[m sent a plain code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/986a4bae5f21a3f8674277ecbaca6facc7b94765
18:15:58 <DataHoarder> nice
18:16:07 <DataHoarder> but, how many blocks paid them out?
18:16:34 <CzarekNakamoto[m> I wonder how that happened - my cpu is underclocked and I do less than 1khs ;p and for past 4 days with 3khs I found 0
18:16:53 <CzarekNakamoto[m> that's from last few hours - I don't know yet, I have to check my wallet c:
18:17:00 <DataHoarder> just do status
18:17:04 <DataHoarder> and see where your shares stand
18:17:55 * CzarekNakamoto[m uploaded an image: (22KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/mrcyjanek.net/2b85151bd9a44ee18801e10466bdf4ceb8893ea8ec5ffe01f50ddfabfcf85626/Screenshot_20210911_201728.png >
18:17:58 <CzarekNakamoto[m> is this correct?
18:19:24 <DataHoarder> the part above CzarekNakamoto[m 
18:19:30 <DataHoarder> where it says "Your shares"
18:19:42 <DataHoarder> and if you have the new version of p2pool
18:19:47 <DataHoarder> "your shares position"
18:19:53 <DataHoarder> PPLNS window              = 2160 blocks (+73 uncles, 0 orphans)
18:19:53 <DataHoarder> Your shares               = 7 blocks (+0 uncles, 0 orphans)
18:19:53 <DataHoarder> Your shares position      = [.....12........1.2.........1..]
18:20:13 <CzarekNakamoto[m> `Your shares               = 0 blocks (+0 uncles, 0 orphans)` so I just suck at reading. Pretend like I was never here
18:20:23 <DataHoarder> they either expired
18:20:33 <DataHoarder> or you got them just after restarting while it synced
18:20:39 <DataHoarder> :sadface: 
18:21:48 <CzarekNakamoto[m> I synced a couple days ago so probably not the case
18:22:00 <DataHoarder> just check logs I guess
19:48:01 <mightysnowman> God how do ads work, I mention crypto to friends and they instantly get crypto ads everywhere (without talking about it themselves)
19:50:36 <Epsilon> I think phones listen in on conversations and use it for ads though I'm unsure if it's true
19:54:45 <DataHoarder> If you met them physically there is also association mightysnowman 
19:55:17 <DataHoarder> got the data sources for the bot now, will just reuse framework for it 
19:55:53 <DataHoarder> registered a channel just so it can output new spam there, expecting to get more than a block every few hours in the future :)
21:01:52 <DataHoarder> Two blocks, finally
21:50:04 <garth> Great interview Sech1 !!!
21:50:06 <garth> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjyPdyyidXE
22:10:19 <DataHoarder> That is going to be a long video to listen to
23:04:44 <DataHoarder> damn some real bad luck right now
23:04:52 <DataHoarder> Your shares position      = [..................1...1.......]
23:05:03 <DataHoarder> Current effort (for me): 450%
23:08:49 <moneromooo> Maybe this channel could be split between dev type interesting stuff and the mining banter.
23:12:35 <DataHoarder> that might be good, given more are joining that might not be focused in tech
23:20:02 <DataHoarder> > 16:15:44 <DataHoarder> so, can an uncle have uncles, I think I asked but can't remember
23:20:13 <DataHoarder> just answered that myself by checking code, as expected, no
23:20:37 <DataHoarder> single depth are accounted for shares