04:05:47 <gingeropolous> hrmmm... it'd be pretty easy to create a fee for p2pool that could be directed to monero general fund or any such thing, right?
04:07:05 <gingeropolous> just lookin at https://miningpoolstats.stream/monero and the fees made me think that p2pools 0 fees will continue encouraging the pool networks race to the bottom regarding fees
04:11:55 <xmrvsbeast[m]> I do not think there should be any fees in mining monero solo or p2pool, if anything there should be a subsidy 
04:16:43 <gingeropolous> now THAT would be interesting to integrate into p2pool
04:17:55 <xmrvsbeast[m]> yup it would, p2pool --donate-only
04:17:55 <xmrvsbeast[m]> then you mine to it and it distributes HR to all miners
04:18:12 <gingeropolous> a way for some entity to dump monero into something that can be used to bolster the rewards doled out to all the participants
04:19:32 <gingeropolous> heh, ppl could literally invest in decentralizing the network by sending monero to a p2pools booster address
04:20:58 <gingeropolous> the mechanics of that are probably a bitch, perhaps unpossible
04:23:02 <gingeropolous[m]> though I guess an entity could join the p2pool network, and just get the block template, and use a separate thing to just send the addresses in the block reward some extra monero
04:23:09 <gingeropolous[m]> proportional to their proven work
04:23:22 <gingeropolous[m]> why i just switched to matrix i dunno.
04:24:06 <gingeropolous[m]> that'd be great to see on the miningpool stats, a negative fee of like 5%
04:24:40 <xmrvsbeast[m]> lol, p2pool would be #1 in about 3 months
04:24:40 <gingeropolous[m]> although you'd have to trust the entity that promises to boos the rewards
04:25:06 <gingeropolous[m]> things are always easier centralized.... how to decentralize this....
04:27:30 <xmrvsbeast[m]> the p2pool code could distribute the donated shares to miners with highest % effort on their current work
04:28:20 <xmrvsbeast[m]> so when the donate pool finds a share it just hands it over to that miner
04:29:14 <gingeropolous> yeah, im thinkin more for the section of the cryptoverse that has figured out how to have oodles of monero but can't / won't mine
04:29:31 <gingeropolous> but still wants to make the network better
04:30:09 <xmrvsbeast[m]> in that case they can just send it over to me and I will take care of it 😉
04:30:19 <gingeropolous> i know right?
04:30:36 <gingeropolous> but then, good sir, you would be C E N T R A L I Z E D
04:33:06 <xmrvsbeast[m]> only thing I could think of is having the community control an address that receives the funds then buys hashpower and feeds p2pool donation
04:35:17 <xmrvsbeast[m]> using centralization to decentralize
06:10:17 <DataHoarder> Seems easy to add tbh, for each template generated take an address in window at random proportionally to what they have :)
06:39:24 <xmrvsbeast[m]> with p2pool the possibilities are endless...and decentralized 👍️
12:29:47 <sethsimmons> p2pool mining will work just fine (albeit with potentially slower block propagation) if you don't/can't expose any ports, correct?
12:31:52 <sech1> You will have only outgoing connections, but it will work
12:32:16 <sech1> same as with monerod
12:32:17 <jaska087> you are only connected to nodes that have open ports.
12:32:22 <pauliouk> it ran nice for me before I setup port forwarding through the router. Only opened it up for the raffle really
13:00:31 <sethsimmons> Figured, thanks!
13:19:56 <Inge> my node is 12(out)+64(in) - is that default max in?
13:20:09 <selsta> monerod has no inbound limit by default
13:20:25 <Inge> p2pool:
13:20:27 <Inge> Connections    = 24 (16 incoming)
13:20:27 <Inge> Peer list size = 263
13:36:32 <jaska087> p2pool has no hard limit for connections right?
13:37:19 <sech1> 8 outgoing, no limit for incoming
13:40:09 <jaska087> right, so those 24 (16 inc) are 8 out + 16 inc = 24
13:40:11 <jaska087> I math!
14:14:30 <mxcl> Since p2pool has such a high difficulty I'm interested in running a “pool2p2pool” as such, so low hash rate contributors don’t feel like days pass without getting any payouts. Looking for tips on how to do this. Was looking into mods to make to monero-pool to act as a front end for a p2pool instance. Am senior dev so can do the code and
14:14:30 <mxcl> maintain the fork if necessary. Also, if this is a dumb idea LMK
14:16:37 <xmrvsbeast[m]> good idea, modify monero-pool to mine on top of p2pool to a pool wallet then payout miners as you would if mining on monero chain directly
14:18:45 <xmrvsbeast[m]> this would allow small pools to decrease their block variance and low hash miners could mine on p2pool indirectly
14:18:56 <sech1> the problem is you can't set extra_nonce, but you can create a separate connection to p2pool per each miner wallet and be like a proxy in the middle
14:19:11 <xmrvsbeast[m]> otherwise most low hash miners will not touch p2pool anyway
14:19:54 <sech1> I don't know, people are too impatient. Even the low hashrate 2 kh/s miners can find a share in 4-5 days on average
14:20:43 <jaska087> can't get rich in 4h? i'm out
14:20:48 <sech1> and at this pool hashrate each share is guaranteed paid
14:21:04 <sech1> unless we get 500% effort block :D
14:21:13 <jaska087> don't say that sech1
14:21:16 <jaska087> jinxed it
14:21:18 <xmrvsbeast[m]> why can't the pool just mine to a single wallet on p2pool and keep track of miner's contribution then pay out as needed?
14:22:14 <sech1> monero-pool uses extra nonce to do that, and it can't with p2pool
14:22:19 <sech1> so it will require some rewrite
14:22:38 <xmrvsbeast[m]> oh I see, would be nice though
14:23:41 <xmrvsbeast[m]> then anyone could start their own pool and leverage p2pool HR to decease variance, more decentralization 
14:24:07 <gingeropolous> mxcl, u could run another p2pool instance
14:24:21 <sech1> small pools from "anyone" can't be considered reliable though
14:24:42 <sech1> yes, it's better to spawn another p2pool with lower difficulty
14:24:54 <gingeropolous> id be fine hopping on to another p2pool. i don't like getting all this dust
14:26:14 <DataHoarder> Remember low difficulty can be 51% and override shares :)
14:26:40 <xmrvsbeast[m]> well I mean pools with a few MH would see blocks often and get a cut
14:27:31 <xmrvsbeast[m]> then the main p2pool sidechain will go 51% and XMR is un-attack-able!
14:29:21 <xmrvsbeast[m]> most low hash miners are not patient, they will not join even a low hash p2pool sidechain, they would still have to wait days for a reward
14:31:02 <xmrvsbeast[m]> as we see with posts in the reddit sub, "tried a few pools, waited 2 hours and got nothing, switched to minexmr and now I am seeing progress"
14:31:20 <xmrvsbeast[m]> this is why they have 40% of the hashrate 😒
14:31:32 <sech1> I received 18 payouts in the last 24 hours, running at 23 kh/s average
14:31:44 <sech1> 23 kh/s is not particularly high
14:32:21 <pauliouk> I've had 3 shares in the last 24 hours, and had at least 4 payouts per share
14:32:32 <pauliouk> and I'm only a 6.5kh/s miner :)
14:33:51 <xmrvsbeast[m]> and I am getting messages from 3kh/s miners saying, I have been mining for 3 days on p2pool and I got nothing, going back to ocean...
14:34:30 <xmrvsbeast[m]> the people in this chat are dedicated, most are not, sadly
14:34:40 <mxcl> yeah I think from a psychology perspective, people are going to be people, and this solution would at least (in theory) stop them jumping to a centralized pool
14:35:25 <xmrvsbeast[m]> I just think it would be awesome for anyone to start a pool and compete with the top dogs
14:35:45 <sech1> anyone can start a pool and mine to a wallet on minexmr :D
14:37:09 <xmrvsbeast[m]> for example, monerod.org, awesome setup, no chance to attract many miners
14:37:51 <pauliouk> I quite like the idea of building things with p2pool as the back end. Community p2pools
14:38:31 <xmrvsbeast[m]> lol
14:39:34 <xmrvsbeast[m]> I was giving away free HR and still only 600 miners joined 
14:40:06 <pauliouk> so you can have charity pools - mine to a p2pool node attached to the charity wallet at 5% fee to cover paying out the miners from the wallets and making some profit on the side for the charity
14:40:28 <pauliouk> but the hashrate all goes to p2pool
14:41:38 <pauliouk> or my caffeine based idea this morning of an XMR-Lottery, mine to a p2pool node, for every share you mine you get 6 numbers, then each week do a draw to see if there's any winners
14:42:20 <pauliouk> if not, roll the top prize over another week... an 8 week roll over could have 10+ XMR up for top prize, then all the miners will be coming to try and win it
14:43:45 <xmrvsbeast[m]> sounds like a nightmare to implement
14:45:09 <pauliouk> I mean, if no one takes part and just some solo kid with 60h/s lands a share, but there's no blocks found during that window, then yeah you got a ticket with no possible prize heh
14:47:35 <pauliouk> I dunno about implementation - I guess for every payout the lottery wallet receives, 75% goes to the top prize (all 6 numbers), 15% to 2nd prize (5 numbers), 10% to 3rd prize (4 numbers).
14:48:11 <pauliouk> if the winning payout is too small, then it just gets held until it reaches a threshold
14:50:37 <hyc> mining is already a lottery. what's the benefit of imposing another layer on top
14:50:51 <hyc> at least the mining lottery prize is self-funding...
14:52:59 <pauliouk> some have become desensitized to the fact that mining is a gamble already, and may want to gamble on top of the gamble :)
14:57:52 <pauliouk> A system however that would allow someone to setup their own pool, with p2pool as the backend, and accepting that their miners won't get paid by p2pool directly and they could impose say a 2% fee so they make a little out of it might be good
14:58:28 <pauliouk> people are greedy, and love fees. So they could convince people to mine on their pool, but again all the hashrate goes to p2pool
14:59:02 <pauliouk> essentially using their marketing skills to our advantage
15:01:03 <jaska087> as an idea it's not bad but someone to actually implent it, is another thing.
15:04:30 <pauliouk> If you can provide a framework that they can 'color in themselves' so all they need to do is setup a monerod, p2pool node and a 'community wallet'  then set it up so that miners just need to run xmrig with their wallet address at the p2pool node and payouts etc are catered for... then... 
15:06:28 <pauliouk> lots of little pools feeding into one big pool to make an ocean?:)
15:08:32 <DataHoarder> I am happy that yesterday I found a Monero block on p2pool and did not get orphaned :)
15:08:38 <DataHoarder> "won" the lottery for everyone
15:12:29 <xmrvsbeast[m]> thanks for that ;)
15:12:32 <pauliouk> a little fish miner (<20kh/s) might not want to go to the hassle of setting up a monerod an p2pool node, and just wants to point their xmrig at something. A Community p2pool would be ideal for that scenario.
15:15:13 <mxcl> looking through p2pool code, seems like SideChain blocks can only contain a single payout address, so monero-pool -> p2pool seems the only option. Then when p2pool receives a payout it has to instruct monero-pool to payout from the p2pool destination wallet (minimum payout thresholds upheld)
15:15:45 <mxcl> As a first iteration anyway. Could always submit a PR for p2pool later, though perhaps that would be considered too much complexity
15:16:52 <xmrvsbeast[m]> I think best to keep it simple, works the same way as it does today except it is mining on p2pool instead of monero chain
15:20:23 <xmrvsbeast[m]> then if it is successful could look at making it more trust-less
15:20:59 <DataHoarder> mxcl: I have built an observer for p2pool (p2pool.observer), and yes one payout per block/share mined. Moving small pools to mine towards p2pool directly reduces their variance :)
15:21:28 <DataHoarder> even if it's a centralized one, they already would benefit from getting constant but smaller payouts
15:22:31 <gingeropolous> 70 Mh!
15:22:44 <DataHoarder> oh, it went down :(
15:23:19 <DataHoarder> we were at 73-74MH/s a few hours ago
15:28:45 <jaska087> P2PServer IP 00000000000000000000ffff1814953b banned for 600 seconds
15:28:56 <jaska087> hmm.. I don't even have ipv6 enabled
15:35:12 <DataHoarder> that seems like an IP4-in-IP6 address
15:56:33 <sech1> it's just logging shenanigan
15:57:00 <sech1> at that point p2pool doesn't have information of whether it was IPv4 or IPv6 because peer already disconnected
15:57:42 <sech1> the ban still works for IPv4 address too
16:02:26 <pauliouk> bye matrix :o
16:03:24 <jaska087> hi matrix
18:00:01 <hyc> mining is a slow way of buying monero, and paying txn fee to your electricity provider
18:00:41 <hyc> framed that way, "profitability" never even enters the picture
18:08:06 <hyc> on a completely different tangent ... do governments stay in power because they own 51% of resources?
18:12:13 <pauliouk> I dunno... if all of the people doing the work just downed tools - governments would fall.
18:12:22 <pauliouk> well, most 1st world governments would fall
19:00:49 <DataHoarder> hyc: mining is buying, but with a variable spread/fee depending on your location :)