00:02:20 <pauliouk> ah nevermind... think I found a better way :)
03:14:06 <gingeropolous> so how is zcash dealing with all the ppl that built and bought those asics?
03:22:01 <hyc> probably telling 'em FU
03:23:53 <hyc> how many people was, it really...
03:27:14 <selsta>  did zcash update their algo?
03:27:42 <hyc> they are migrating to POS
03:28:31 <selsta> guess they want to double dip with their dev tax
04:06:08 <nioc> zooko wrote a blog post saying that pos would help the price 
04:19:48 <hyc> woohoo
04:20:08 <hyc> they're a for-profit corp, if it will really help \i guess they have to do it
04:20:44 <hyc> not really sure I understand why that will magically increase demand
04:21:44 <hyc> I guess it means whoever has heavy bags already gets to dictate the future of things. very democratic.
04:25:52 <nioc> https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/KpPaVencgTVxuiKhycSSWCmA/ima_c2c7dc3.jpeg
04:28:58 <hyc> lol
04:29:23 <hyc> so yeah, basically admitting there isn't enough intrinsic value to sustain its price on its own
04:38:20 <hyc> nioc https://twitter.com/hyc_symas/status/1465540514820800514
05:10:03 <hyc> welp, happy 2 year anniversary folks
05:34:43 <hyc> I started to hear a humming sound from my laptop's fans, decided to stop xmrig
05:35:14 <hyc> 6 threads mining, watt meter showed 140W. now it's reading 70W with them gone
07:08:07 <Inge> What cpu in that thing?
07:12:59 <hyc> 5950hx
07:13:32 <hyc> the other 70W is a bunch of stuff btw.
07:13:58 <hyc> watt meter at wall, power strip in that, many devices in that
07:22:01 <Inge> ah makes sense
08:34:03 <\x> hyc: you gut a 5950hx machine?
08:34:23 <hyc> lenovo legion 7\
08:34:55 <hyc> I noticed a weird humming from the fans. both inlets were full of cat hair
08:35:12 <\x> ah, what wifi card came with it?
08:35:18 <\x> lspci -nn
08:35:18 <hyc> leaving miner off for now
08:35:44 <\x> if you gut the mediatek wifi on it, im interested on an iw phy fump
08:35:47 <\x> dump*
08:35:51 <\x> its likely mt7921
08:36:05 <hyc> intel ax200
08:36:12 <\x> mehh
08:40:53 <hyc> I wonder if anyone would buy this one off me. I got the first in-stock one I could find, which has a UK keyboard
08:41:03 <hyc> and it's driving me batty
08:41:30 <hyc> I'm getting all these spurious backslashes because of the half-width left-shift key and enter key
08:41:56 <hyc> what moron decides you need backslash on two keys of the keyboard, and not a bigger shift key
08:42:46 <hyc> and looking at the service manual, the keyboard is not an independent unit. it's integral to the top case of the laptop. otherwise I'd just swap keyboards
08:43:47 <moneromooo> Yet another Brexit success, getting away from European intransigeance and showing off genuine English innovation.
08:44:41 <hyc> lol
09:02:55 <pauliouk> hey, don't blame that on the English!
09:03:21 <pauliouk> the whole blame lays in the hands of the idiot Gen-Z kids
09:03:32 <hyc> what, Brexit? or the stupid UK keyboard layout?
09:03:47 <pauliouk> well probably both
09:04:04 <hyc> seems to me both are pretyy squarely the fault of the English :P
09:04:30 <pauliouk> some politician said "If the country votes for Brexit, I'll quit" - all the idiot kids heard was 'I can affect change if I vote for something I dont understand'
09:05:00 <hyc> oh come on, really? you're saying the majority of brexit votes were from young people?
09:05:20 <pauliouk> as for the keyboard... yeah ok I have that issue myself but I got used to it quick :)
09:05:28 <hyc> haha
09:06:01 <hyc> I kept on hitting ctrl-\ when trying to use ctrl-shift. which aborts the current process and generates a coredump, by default
09:06:15 <pauliouk> there were too many young people making their first votes, and unlike in America where they just fudge the votes by having millions of dead people 'vote', in the UK we just have millions of brain-dead people vote.
09:06:21 <hyc> I had to disable the ctrl-\ key sequence
09:06:30 <hyc> otherwise I was killing things left and right
09:07:04 <pauliouk> I can see why that'd get annoying quick :P
09:07:12 <hyc> but I still get extra backslashes when reaching for both leftshift and for enter
09:07:20 <hyc> bugs the crap outta me
09:08:41 <hyc> https://www.statista.com/statistics/520954/brexit-votes-by-age/
09:08:48 <hyc> majority of young people voted remain
09:08:58 <hyc> by a vast margin
09:09:55 <pauliouk> hmmm wow, yeah vast margin too
09:10:01 <pauliouk> I call bias stats :D
09:10:09 <hyc> phphphphttt
09:10:49 <hyc> only cynical old guys trying to dodge taxes and human rights voted leave :P
09:11:29 <pauliouk> in fairness, yeah old people were like "Why do we let other people decide what we do with our country?" when essentially the only thing that'll change is the amount other people charge for us importing things.
09:12:14 <hyc> and the time it takes to import, with all the new red tape
09:12:48 <pauliouk> red tape, green tape, duct tape and bondage tape at the moment
09:13:32 <pauliouk> I just wish we had slightly better weather here so I could throw up a couple of greenhouses in the garden and keep some produce growing all year round
09:15:13 <pauliouk> oh, hyc I might have some form of use for your tv-box/SBC miners soon :)
09:15:39 <hyc> oh really?
09:16:07 <hyc> i've been thinking about ordering another 10 or so to set up again here\
09:16:13 <hyc> ^^ see what i mean
09:16:57 <hyc> I would edit my keymap and disable both of those keys but then I'd need to find somewhere to map a real backslash to
09:16:59 <pauliouk> xmrig-proxy, grabs the wallet address from the xmrig username argument, logs it, then fires up a p2pool node with a random address from the log, and points everything at it until a block is found or 30minutes
09:18:00 <hyc> and then?
09:18:47 <pauliouk> once a share is found, the p2pool node goes down, and a backup p2pool gets locked onto by xmrig-proxy with the next wallet
09:19:27 <hyc> why go to that trouble?
09:19:50 <pauliouk> I'm sure there's an easier option, I'm just spitballin' at the moment
09:19:58 <hyc> and does xmrig-proxy still accept connections while it has no backend to talk to?
09:20:44 <pauliouk> 1 retry before trying a new pool url, should be minimal disruption (testing to ensue)
09:21:27 <hyc> so it sounds to me like you want to continue to have a multi-user pool
09:21:40 <hyc> but without the pool custody issue
09:21:54 <pauliouk> its for the tiny-miners
09:22:24 <pauliouk> 1 pi ain't going to do much, 1000pi's could get a block :)
09:22:34 <pauliouk> or at least a share or two :P
09:22:59 <hyc> 1 share, at .0003xmr, divided 1000 ways. woohoo.
09:23:30 <pauliouk> nope, it'll be 1 share to one wallet
09:24:00 <pauliouk> think xmrvsbeast HRBoost, but community driven
09:24:02 <hyc> and 999 guys waiting for their turn
09:24:20 <pauliouk> its a pi :) set it and forget it :)
09:24:43 <hyc> then just keep using existing pool software
09:26:23 <pauliouk> :) I'll give it a shot and see how well it works out
09:27:53 <hyc> I guess there's no reason p2pool couldn't be changed to be multiuser
09:28:18 <hyc> but there would be no combining of hashrate
09:28:32 <hyc> each miner's jobs would be generated for its own wallet address
10:12:47 <pauliouk> hmm in which case they could just run their own p2pool node
10:13:00 <hyc> exactly
11:47:16 <pauliouk> hmm I've seen quite a few Transaction not found in pool messages overnight :|
14:42:12 <sethsimmons> <pauliouk> "hmm I've seen quite a few..." <- Did monerod or p2pool restart in that time?
14:42:33 <pauliouk> nope, both running solid for a 5 days
14:42:37 <sethsimmons> That message gets spammed anytime p2pool restarts for me, as miners find "false" shares while syncing so p2pool tries to submit them to monerod.
14:43:12 <pauliouk> ah wait... I did throw another p2pool node at the monerod, however these messages came randomly later after it had fully synced
15:46:05 <Inge> Happy 2-year anniversary RandomX https://twitter.com/fireice_uk/status/1190225870721626112
15:50:31 <masterbob79[m]> hey Seth For Privacy I tried using your guide for advanced running node, and download from the repo. it says it corrupt
16:04:37 <sethsimmons> <masterbob79[m]> "hey Seth For Privacy I tried..." <- Taken to DMs.
16:54:04 <gingeropolous> congrats on 2 years of randomx everyone!
17:02:48 <masterbob79[m]> is the plan to stay on Randomx?
17:04:38 <hyc> lol
17:04:53 <hyc> fuk, what a moron
17:08:25 <gingeropolous> wut?
17:09:07 <hyc> the tweet Inge posted
17:09:21 <SerHack> I opened a wine bottle for you, guys. 
17:10:14 <hyc> I'm planning to open a barolo tonight too
17:10:25 <gingeropolous> lulz
17:11:57 <gingeropolous> well, 2 years. I just did a really rushed write up for the anniversary, and came across the fact that the 2 year mark was supposed to be signficiant in some sense
17:12:18 <gingeropolous> i think we are sposed to re-evaluate the PoW and assess if things should be done
17:13:10 <hyc> yeah. expected lifespan of current randomx was 3-5 years
17:13:24 <hyc> and we could retune if needed
17:13:28 <gingeropolous> does the advent of chipmakers moving ram right onto the CPU die mean something should be tuned?
17:13:31 <hyc> so far I don't see a need
17:13:41 <gingeropolous> dye
17:13:52 <hyc> die is correct
17:14:11 <hyc> which chip makers besides Apple so far? M1 is nice but isn't blowing anyone away
17:14:48 <gingeropolous> yeah i guess thats it. the best intel brought to the table is this bigLITTLE nonsense
17:15:01 <hyc> lol yeah total garbage
17:15:02 <masterbob79[m]> what's wrong with this guy? I was trying to figure out who he was. he's the xmr-stak guy. 
17:15:02 <masterbob79[m]> https://twitter.com/fireice_uk/status/1366482344618655750?t=rcHNnn7jX_n7AKJHbHF2TQ&s=19
17:15:20 <gingeropolous> masterbob79[m], don't go down that rabbit hole
17:15:44 <gingeropolous> its full of delusions and hatred, really not productive in any sense
17:16:20 <hyc> he has publicly admitted to being clinically mentally ill
17:16:29 <hyc> so yeah, nothing to learn there
17:16:37 <masterbob79[m]> I have heard nothing but bad things. 
17:17:20 <pauliouk> I looked up xmr-stak last night, within 30secs I closed the page
17:18:10 <gingeropolous> i assume amd will be moving ram onto die soon enough
17:18:33 <pauliouk> Gen4 does that I believe
17:18:34 <gingeropolous> or they'll just get to the point where their cache is so massive its equivalent
17:18:48 <gingeropolous> so, sure, perhaps no tuning is necessary now
17:19:16 <gingeropolous> but considering the ..... feet dragging ... or whatever.. thats gonna happen with any PoW tweak ... i think the soil on this one should at least be tilled at this point
17:19:43 <masterbob79[m]> xmrig has always been better
17:19:46 <hyc> Amazon announced their newest ARM server chip https://twitter.com/Stuart_A_Scott/status/1465728260877303809/photo/2
17:20:36 <hyc> haven't found any actual tech specs yet
17:21:05 <pauliouk> I'm curious about the Baikal ARM processors making their way into Russia - if they're cheap enough, could be a viable mining option
17:21:17 <hyc> they claim incremental improvements over previous gen Graviton, which is ok. looks like they are claiming drastic advantage over Intel
17:21:22 <gingeropolous> i guess thats the closets we'll get to the asic situation, considering i doubt amazon will release gravitron to consumers
17:22:14 <hyc> at some point someone is going to have to try to write a randomx jit for RISC-V
17:22:18 <gingeropolous> and there's the unfortunate reality that end consumers mostly use tablets and phones these days
17:22:48 <gingeropolous> i dunno what would drive a real personal computer revolution
17:23:35 <gingeropolous> everyone seems happy enough to go back to the mainframe / client thing that the crazy hippies in the 60s helped stop
17:24:23 <hyc> mainframe/client prob works out best for everyone overall
17:24:33 <hyc> people clearly suck at maintaining their own PCs
17:25:23 <hyc> I personally have never had much use for a computer without an internet connection
17:25:57 <hyc> always needed network access to truly be useful\
17:26:52 <pauliouk> I remember life pre-internet, tech wasn't as much fun, but still interesting enough to keep me engaged
17:27:03 <hyc> doesn't make sense to do a lot of heavy lifting on a battery-powered handheld device
17:28:07 <nioc> computer as a service incoming
17:28:17 <hyc> my first computer experience was via 300 baud dialup, so telecom has always been part of my computing experience
17:29:30 <hyc> compute as a service - we had that with compuserve and genie too. which gave rise to aol.
17:33:44 <pauliouk> I worked up from a ZX81, to Amiga 500->1200, then onto a 386DX Win3.1, and 486 Win3.11 before the usual Win NT, Win 95 (dialup), 98(dialup), 2000(512kbit), XP(1mbit) increments. Then moved onto RedHat and Debian
17:33:51 <gingeropolous> well apparnetly professionals suck at maintaining their own PCs as well
17:34:28 <gingeropolous> all the monero bonnets 
17:34:58 <hyc> the profession expanded faster than it should have. I recall a comment by a famous computer scientist in the 1970s-80s
17:35:14 <hyc> about all these new CS programs starting up in universities all over the country
17:35:43 <hyc> "how are they doing this? there aren't enough computer scientists in existence to teach all these curricula"
17:36:22 <pauliouk> and now they churn out MSCE's faster than icecream.
17:36:48 <hyc> and none worth the pixels they're printed on
17:36:57 <gingeropolous> hey i plan on getting a $7k version of a masters from georgia tech soon enuf
17:37:48 <gingeropolous> but back to on topic talk, this is getting into banter territory. :)
17:38:10 <hyc> the mainframe model works because you only need a small centralized team who knows what they're doing to keep it all going
17:38:39 <gingeropolous> but yeah. should we hold, like, an actual meeting on randomx and PoW future etc? it seems like a silly idea to let it bite us in the ass again. 
17:38:41 <pauliouk> I use a custom bit of software for building web based forms for a living. I mis-use it to do things faster than all of these £80K webdevs we hire can do something half as good. I had to explain to a senior develop and systems architect why their AWS node was having issues as they were blaming the users browsers for a 403 error.
17:38:46 <hyc> compuserve/genie/aol were what amazon aws is today - selling spare cycles on compute servers you originally bought for business functions
17:40:43 <hyc> gingeropolous: I guess we can have a meeting if you want. but I think if anyone had heard of any significant hardware milestones they would have mentioned it already
17:40:59 <hyc> so i'm not sure a meeting will shed any new light on the situation
17:41:27 <pauliouk> "We're getting 403 errors, we need you to ask anyone who gets the error if they're in the UK, EU or other location, were they using a mobile device, if so, what manufacturer, OS and browser version, if not, what OS and browser version were they using?"  it was happening to around 20% of visitors... at no point did they think "Maybe its us?"
17:41:47 <gingeropolous> right. i don't "want" to have a meeting. perhaps i'll just start a github issue
17:42:02 <gingeropolous> and that can evolve / devolve however it does
17:42:09 <hyc> cool
17:42:46 <gingeropolous> i, for one, see a reasonable return on fortifying our position as it stands now
17:42:49 <hyc> huge on-chip RAM is something to pay attention to, certainly. which we are doing.
17:43:19 <gingeropolous> especially considering one of the primary concerns in the tweak-era was that we are having a centralized response to a particular company
17:43:25 <hyc> when AMD's next generation chips come out we'll need to see what they achieve
17:43:31 <gingeropolous> and apparently all the legal oriented ppl get all excited about that
17:44:04 <hyc> legal oriented? 
17:44:06 <gingeropolous> but if we fortify before the introduction of something, then its just the developers increasing the security of the network
17:44:16 <gingeropolous> lawyers and such
17:44:41 <hyc> yeah. so what? it's our software, we can do what we want with it.
17:45:15 <gingeropolous> i dunno. read through the big meeting on PoW circa 2019-03-24. https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/monero-site/blob/b87354501b6343f9146f331805ddadc45696f728/_posts/2019-03-24-logs-for-the-dev-meeting-held-on-2019-03-24.md
17:45:59 <gingeropolous> i forget the specifics, but what i got from it was something about centralization and legal implications of bricking asics or something
17:49:35 <hyc> being prepared is good of course, but nobody wants the upheaval of a change if there's no reason
17:50:00 <hyc> we would need to see a sharp spike in hashrate, indicating an ASIC problem, before triggering a change
17:50:15 <hyc> I don't see that being proactive buys us anything really.
17:54:02 <crypto_grampy[m]> Is there any sort of specific hashrate change that would convey ASIC usage? Might be interesting to have something tracking this for irregularities Rucknium 
17:56:01 <Rucknium[m]> crypto_grampy: A huge spike, I'd imagine
17:56:29 <Rucknium[m]> It could be useful to go back and look at historical instances on Monero and other chains when ASICs arrived.
17:56:43 <crypto_grampy[m]> Id actually imagine someone would be more subtle 
17:57:27 <Rucknium[m]> It sort of depends on their motives and business model
17:57:28 <crypto_grampy[m]> > glances at hidden inflation bug slow printer
18:00:06 <hyc> if they're smart yes, they would learn from our reaction in the past and ramp up slowly
18:00:32 <hyc> so far the track record shows they don't do that though, the spikes have always been visible
18:01:15 <hyc> also checking nonce distribution shows unusual miners and gives them away
18:01:56 <hyc> again, that's known and should be easy for them to evade. but they haven't.
18:02:07 <crypto_grampy[m]> You could probably look at some metric that shows number of miners and compare to total hashrate or something... Taking into account average CPU performance changes over time
18:02:40 <Rucknium[m]> We can't know the number of miners
18:02:41 <crypto_grampy[m]> Just a smooth brain spitballing here 🙃
18:03:02 <selsta> there were huge spikes in randomx too with cloud botnets
18:03:09 <selsta> but they didn't last a long time
18:03:39 <hyc> yeah, that's the most we're likely to see for a while
18:04:11 <hyc> the global chip shortage is still a thing. even if someone were working on an ASIC design, they probably aren't able to get it into production right now
18:04:45 <hyc> but clearly it would have taken (has taken) more than 3 years to design such a thing
18:05:30 <Rucknium[m]> One thing to think about is how valuable block rewards were back when the Monero ASICs were developed. And compare that to how valuable they are now.
18:05:50 <Rucknium[m]> To see if there is a substantial profit opportunity, even if developing ASICs were to be possible
18:06:21 <hyc> that's why this chart is relevant https://twitter.com/hyc_symas/status/1465549716515692551/photo/1
18:06:26 <hyc> hash rate vs price
18:06:52 <hyc> the deployment of ASICs happened at a much lower xmr price than we have today
18:06:55 <crypto_grampy[m]> Is it possible to get quotes from an ASIC manufacturer for a randomx miner?
18:07:39 <nioc> the first monero asics were a slow increase as they deployed them as they were built, while people were debating it was obvious to me that there were asics
18:07:51 <crypto_grampy[m]> hyc: What browser is that 👀👀
18:07:57 <hyc> seamonkey
18:09:02 <hyc> I only use code I helped write.
18:09:11 <Rucknium[m]> hyc: But much higher total block reward, correct?
18:10:14 <hyc> Rucknium[m]: maybe. I don't know the figures offhand, but our txn volume is also much higher now, so more txn fees offsetting the lower emission
18:13:23 <tevador> 2 years since the rollout of RandomX :)
18:13:58 <Rucknium[m]> bitinfocharts doesn't have the data we would need to do a business calculation.
18:15:01 <hyc> and again, I doubt a small scale ASIC mfr will be able to compete with the big chip firms like AMD/Intel https://semiaccurate.com/2021/11/08/amd-outs-milan-x-mi200-and-bridges/
18:16:59 <hyc> tevador: and closer to 3 years for ASIC designers to think about how they'd implement it
18:17:54 <Rucknium[m]> I put a query to neptune to try to get the block reward data directly from the blockchain.
18:19:30 <hyc> you can get those numbers from monero-blockchain-stats
18:19:52 <hyc> you just need to merge that data with historical price data
18:21:10 <hyc> Rucknium[m]: example here https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/4694
18:21:52 <hyc> you can get emission and fees in the output as well, optionally
18:33:42 <Rucknium[m]> Very interesting. I didn't know about this binary. dives in
20:46:00 <tevador> any reviews for #229?
21:12:22 <tevador> gingeropolous: nice write-up, IIRC there were ASICs for CNv2 or CNv3
21:59:54 <gingeropolous> thanks tevador . CNv2 or CNv3?
22:16:41 <sethsimmons> v0.17.3.0 is compatible with p2pool now, correct?
22:21:19 <tevador> gingeropolous: IIRC it was discovered from the distribution of nonces. I don't remember the exact PoW variant, but it was sometime between CNv1 and RandomX.
22:24:08 <selsta> sethsimmons: it should have everything, yes