09:24:01 <sech1> Are there any plans for an intermediate fork before Seraphis? I heard something about BP++ and PoW change fork
13:21:49 <selsta> sech1: yes, BP++, PoW change and maybe Rucknium's output selection algo changes seems doable before Seraphis
13:22:38 <selsta> I think BP++ is currently getting audited, plowsof? There is a Rust implementation so it should not be too difficult to port it to C++ for someone who has experience with that.
13:23:37 <sech1> Regarding PoW change, it will need at least 6 months gap between "final code merged" and the fork itself
13:23:43 <sech1> Judging by my previous experience
13:24:10 <sech1> This is the remnants of the old P2Pool (before March 18th fork, 5 months ago): https://old.p2pool.observer/
13:24:49 <sech1> So I'd say at least 6 months after "new versions of xmrig/xmrig-proxy/p2pool" are released
13:25:23 <sech1> Or we'll lose half the hashrate during the fork again
13:27:00 <sech1> BP++ and Rucknium's changes can be merged later than that, of course. PoW change just impacts more people, not only the people running nodes.
13:30:48 <plowsof> Awaiting update from Cypherstack reg the new bp++ paper (how to proceed / if price or scope would have to change)
13:32:06 <selsta> sech1: so it might make sense to start looking into potential RandomX tweaks now
13:32:13 <selsta> if it's the first thing that has to be ready
13:32:38 <sech1> yes, I have some ideas for tweaks
13:34:22 <sech1> for example, CFROUND tweak that can boost Ryzen hashrate 10% without changing ASIC resistance
13:36:23 <sech1> Plus program size tweaks, and scratchpad read/write points inside the program. Zen4 can run 10-20% larger programs with the same hashrate, it's not fully loaded with current parameters and algorithm.
13:37:29 <moneromooo> Do you have a rough idea how much of the current network hash rate is based off Zen4 ?
13:37:40 <sech1> Not much
13:37:44 <sech1> It's just an example
13:37:51 <sech1> Zen2/Zen3 CPUs have similar properties
13:38:08 <sech1> and all Ryzen CPUs are probably more than 50% of RandomX hashrate
13:38:15 <sech1> *Ryzen and EPYC
13:38:31 <sech1> I write about Zen4 since it's my daily PC now
13:39:03 <moneromooo> To guard against ASICs, it's probably best to optimize for the best arch in terms of hash/watt, right ?
13:39:09 <sech1> yes
13:39:31 <sech1> best arch in hash/watt on desktop is Zen4 right now (Zen4 EPYC for servers)
13:39:37 <moneromooo> But if we do that and that arch is a small part of the network hash rate, it works against us. There must be some threshold at which it becomes a good thing to do...
13:39:43 <sech1> 7950X can be tuned to 150 h/s/watt
13:40:06 <sech1> CFROUND tweak will boost _all_ Ryzens, even the first ones
13:40:24 <moneromooo> Sure, I mean in general.
13:40:36 <sech1> the other tweak (program size and scratchpad access points) will boost Zen4 most, Zen2/Zen3 will get smaller boost
13:40:50 <sech1> No idea about Intel CPUs, but the tweak is generic enough to boost them too
13:41:19 <sech1> by "boost" I mean total RandomX instructions executed per second, not the raw hashrate
13:41:53 <sech1> because program size tweak will not increase hashrate, but it shouldn't decrease it too
13:44:25 <moneromooo> Jesus, almost 4 years of randomx... How time flies :S
14:51:35 <DataHoarder> A nice fork to eat some ASICs
14:52:59 <DataHoarder> old. / old-mini. on p2pool are impressive, but it's mainly one/two miners keeping it alive % wise. Indeed making a LOT of noise about upgrades and having software available well ahead of time seems to be key
14:57:21 <moneromooo> Hmm. That's an interesting thing for merge mined coins. When to switch exactly...
14:57:46 <sech1> 3 months advance notice was clearly not enough for p2pool
14:57:59 <sech1> or was it 2.5 months? lol
14:58:50 <sech1> first p2pool fork announcement was made in the beginning of January, fork happened on March 18th, and we still have miners who didn't update
14:59:54 <DataHoarder> announcement was different than software
14:59:58 <DataHoarder> which came in later
15:00:07 <sech1> Software was released on January 31st
15:00:36 <DataHoarder> so 1.5 months :D
15:00:43 <DataHoarder> and it was February in between
15:00:46 <sech1> yes, but people new in advance they needed to update
15:00:59 <sech1> as long as they read reddit :D
15:01:03 <DataHoarder> hahahaha
15:01:32 <moneromooo> "NSA had 2 months notice, as long as they monitored my filesystem"
15:01:57 <DataHoarder> this is what I mean with making noise then releasing the software, with also longer time and making more noise :D
15:02:14 <DataHoarder> people will still not update tbh but should keep that to a minimum
15:02:43 <sech1> yeap. Especially people mining with explorer.exe or svchost.exe :D
15:03:14 <DataHoarder> botnets are also people!
15:03:35 <moneromooo> Only if they're incorporated.
15:04:31 <DataHoarder> basically monero software will come out and THEN only software developers of other tools might start looking into upgrading their own tools
15:04:40 <sech1> I just realized we never had an actual PoW change with RandomX. Fork in August 2022 only required pool supdate (view tags stuff), and hashrate didn't drop.
15:04:57 <sech1> Except for minexmr miner migration which happened at the same time
15:05:03 <DataHoarder> so expect the actual time for some people to be half of the time than intended
15:05:23 <sech1> I don't need monero software release. Merged PR is enough
15:05:29 <DataHoarder> you don't
15:05:38 <sech1> as for RandomX, even merged PR in RandomX repo is enough
15:05:49 <DataHoarder> but will "centralized wallet XXX" even look? :D
15:06:06 <DataHoarder> or "closed source wallet with 300 coin support"
15:06:09 <sech1> They mostly use wallet2 library
15:06:55 <sech1> Yes, last August we had many obscure wallets get behind
15:06:58 <DataHoarder> (anyhow, just keep in mind the time gap, and halve that for maybe the intended duration)
15:07:00 <sech1> some wallets didn't update for months
15:07:59 <DataHoarder> pow change wise I already looked at expected API and upgrade paths myself, but can't call everyone else responsible
15:08:04 <sech1> Don't know about all miners, but P2Pool miners usually update to the newest version in 2-3 months (70% of hashrate)
15:08:15 <DataHoarder> and even faster
15:08:30 <sech1> first month is 50%, then it slowly goes up to 70%
15:09:01 <DataHoarder> 83%/70% for v3.5 on main/mini atm
15:09:29 <sech1> main is also at "70%" because of that one big miner on old pool
15:09:31 <DataHoarder> numbers somewhat biased on main as it's done on dynamic pplns window, one day I should also publish the stats across time via an endpoint
15:10:37 <DataHoarder> then 8.8% also are in v3.1 which was the most recent version when the fork happened
15:11:00 <DataHoarder> mini has better numbers there
15:13:14 <sech1> So 8.8% never updated after the fork
15:13:38 <sech1> the kind of people "it works? don't touch it"
15:14:34 <sech1> old pool miners are even more hardcore "it works/don't touch" people
15:14:34 <DataHoarder> lemme play with the statistics, I'll make some charts
18:32:06 <m-relay> <k​arano:poddery.com> i am facing problem with Gupax
18:32:47 <m-relay> <k​arano:poddery.com> its exiting in p2pool
18:32:50 <m-relay> <k​arano:poddery.com> my node is starting successfully