08:36:28 <jberman[m]> <reeemuru[m]> "jberman: sure no prob. will..." <- this is the most interesting one: https://github.com/mymonero/mymonero-core-cpp/pull/36
08:38:29 <jberman[m]> this one is less interesting, just outdated code that doesn't match wallet2: https://github.com/mymonero/mymonero-core-cpp/pull/35
14:05:26 <reeemuru[m]> <jberman[m]> "this is the most interesting one..." <- Interesting indeed. I have some old k-means models code in R. I will try repurpose / running on some transactions and see if I can provide any useful info.  
14:05:27 <reeemuru[m]> Haven't really dug into monero tx structure but looking forward to try and break stuff.
16:42:38 <endogenic> on the topic of rpc vs lws, the rpc system is a functional subset of the lws API afaik
16:42:50 <endogenic> meaning an rpc server can be implemented as backed by a lws scanner
16:43:31 <endogenic> which, shortly before i decided i had to leave mymonero, i implemented here, mostly as something that would be very easily marketable to exchanges who're already coding to the RPC api
16:43:33 <endogenic> https://github.com/mymonero/mymonero-rpc-server/tree/master/src
16:44:01 <endogenic> what i dont like about the rpc server as i recall is that it holds a wallet open - suppose some code forgets to match an open call with a close call or say the consumer crashes and can't close the wallet,.. that'd be somewhat bad
16:44:18 <endogenic> of course there are ways to resolve that. you could put some sort of challenge token on each call
16:45:29 <endogenic> i've developed a more privacy preserving authentication system for my own systems that i'll be sharing hopefully soon, probably not a bad time to mention it here, which is pretty straightforward.. it's just an interactive process where a server gives a client an ephemeral, fairly random token that the client must sign with its spend key
16:45:41 <hyc> yeah current wallet-rpc is pretty braindead
16:45:59 <hyc> the problem is using http-based RPC in the first place, since HTTP is inherently a stateless protocol
16:46:14 <endogenic> i notice that mymonero says the system was never implemented but i suspect it's being sold 
16:46:24 <hyc> it should use an inherently stateful session-oriented protocol
16:46:27 <endogenic> yeah i hear you hyc
16:46:57 <hyc> a wallet client should open a connection and use it for the duration, then when the connection closes all of that session is disposed of
16:47:15 <endogenic> overall the lws API itself can take some significant improvements which we also designed way back when but somehow they never got rolled out
16:47:28 <endogenic> including a websocket API which has implicit sessions
16:47:42 <endogenic> the websocket client is shown in that repo linked above
16:47:54 <endogenic> so, i'm definitely going to be bringing that back
16:47:56 <endogenic> when the time comes..
16:48:16 <endogenic> reeemuru[m]: i'm curious about what you're working on and would be interested to see if it would be beneficial for us to collaborate
16:48:42 <hyc> I guess there's no reason we can't write a brand new rpc system from the ground up. it's not like wallet-rpc itself is widely used
16:49:06 <endogenic> yeah lots of this stuff just needs a ground up overhaul
16:49:38 <hyc> and again I'd model it after LDAP protocol - an explicit login op to start a session, one session per connection, one connection per session
16:49:46 <endogenic> my C++ developer team mate who's going to be introducing a CCS proposal for some wallet2 pure function factors with me got covid so we're slightly delayed on that
16:50:20 <endogenic> but i think the factoring would be a big help in the direction of just overhauling all this stuff
16:50:31 <endogenic> there's no reason e.g. monero-lws should be implementing its own scanning code afaik
16:50:39 <hyc> indeed
16:50:50 <endogenic> nor any reason, as Justin is seeing, for the lws client to implement its own tx creation entrypoints
16:50:58 <endogenic> all that serialization and data structures can be shared
16:52:07 <hyc> yeah that's prime code-reuse stuff there
16:57:53 <reeemuru[m]> <endogenic> "reeemuru: i'm curious about what..." <- endogenic: i'm spending most of my time [here](https://github.com/hyahatiph-labs/infosec) and monero codebase. trying to learn as much as i can
16:59:45 <endogenic> looks cool
16:59:54 <endogenic> overlaps with my work somewhat
17:02:29 <endogenic> hah those are cool
17:02:35 <endogenic> oops mistell 
17:07:23 <reeemuru[m]> for the rpc would it possible to have the request wrapped in an asynchronous thread which also wraps `open_wallet` and `close_wallet` around every `method`. (Would need to send username and password on each request?) Maybe use a new field in the json request context to extend the existing logic for these new requests. As far as syncing clients could call `refresh` at a threshold of blocks behind in background task or scheduler.
17:07:23 <reeemuru[m]> Just tossing ideas out.
17:07:59 <reeemuru[m]> I still need to look through the rpc code though
17:08:31 <hyc> that would really suck since the entire wallet cache needs to be decrypted on each open
17:09:22 <hyc> in the past we've discussed perf problems for monero wallets at busy exchanges
17:09:33 <hyc> their wallet caches are huge
17:10:29 <hyc> the biggest improvement in that case would be rewriting the wallet code to store state incrementally in LMDB, instead of slurping it all up at open time and writing it all out at save/close time
17:11:30 <hyc> I finished implementing the DB encryption hooks in LMDB, for the wallet to use. but nobody has taken up the task of rewriting the wallet to use LMDB
18:43:24 <rbrunner> hyc, about this statement of yours some hours ago: "I guess there's no reason we can't write a brand new rpc system from the ground up. it's not like wallet-rpc itself is widely used"
18:43:54 <rbrunner> This assessment surprises me a little. I would have guessed that by now the RPC interface is "entrechend" in tons of places
18:44:19 <rbrunner> Mostly where anything has to run in an automated way, means most exchanges
18:45:30 <rbrunner> Or for most if not all those shopping system plugins
19:29:08 <hyc> I suppose. but as I already mentioned, the existing wallet code sucks for exchanges
19:29:17 <hyc> it needs an overhaul anyway
19:30:55 <rbrunner> ... and not to speak about my personal favorite subject right now, the coming of Seraphis, which again needs plenty of overhauls as it seems
19:34:11 <rbrunner> I see scenarious to arrive at a Seraphis wallet that don't look crazy or dumb already at first glance that would lead to moving wallet2 out of the way and start afresh on a green field
19:35:47 <endogenic> wallet2_and_a_half?
19:35:50 <endogenic> jberman[m]:  ^
19:35:57 <endogenic> shout out
19:38:04 <rbrunner> Well, we need at least wallet4, because there is already wallet3: tewinget is very busy with a full wallet rewrite over at Oxen
19:38:06 <rbrunner> https://github.com/oxen-io/oxen-core/pull/1490
19:38:27 <rbrunner> With a wallet cache as a Sqlite database. Take that, hyc :)
19:38:50 <endogenic> i think by that standard we're already on like wallet9 or something lol
19:40:55 <rbrunner> (thanks to selsta for that link, was interesting to see what they are up to)
19:43:22 <endogenic> like this? 
19:43:23 <endogenic> https://github.com/oxen-io/oxen-core/blob/ecb62e8faba07a7ec003435890d8053ef6088aad/src/wallet3/wallet2%C2%BD.cpp
19:43:49 <endogenic> looks pretty good though
19:43:55 <endogenic> not that i have really looked at it in any detail
19:44:03 <endogenic> but it makes one wonder why tewinget didn't stick with monero
19:44:12 <endogenic> hmmmm
19:44:50 <endogenic> i dont understand proof of stake though
19:50:20 <rbrunner> " but it makes one wonder why tewinget didn't stick with monero": gras, other side, greener :)
19:51:11 <endogenic> pretty sure he got quite a lot of dough from his ccs proposal though, in case you didn't know
19:51:19 <endogenic> i mean ffs proposal
19:55:41 <rbrunner> Yeah, and why not. If they are doing good work for good currency. Which they do I would guess as they are still active member of the dev team.
20:00:29 <hyc> tewinget? hasn't been active on monero in ages
20:00:38 <hyc> and using sqlite for a wallet? blech
20:10:02 <rbrunner> Yes, that's the point, as far as I know tewinget left Monero for Loki, now Oxen, years ago already and is working there probably on pay
20:11:48 <rbrunner> Yes, sqlite complete with triggers to cover some consistency requirements :)
20:11:49 <rbrunner> https://github.com/oxen-io/oxen-core/blob/ecb62e8faba07a7ec003435890d8053ef6088aad/src/wallet3/db_schema.cpp
20:13:31 <rbrunner> (Not that I recommend that, just for entertainment, as we don't seem to disturb too much research here right now :)
20:14:07 <endogenic> that's not my point
20:14:17 <endogenic> (your subsequent reply)
20:14:30 <endogenic> if he was getting $$ here then why on earth did he have the reaction he did
20:14:38 <endogenic> makes you wonder
20:14:46 <endogenic> it's not an isolated incident
20:15:05 <endogenic> it's sad, anyway
20:15:23 <endogenic> but PoS tho lol wut
20:18:32 <nikg83[m]> endogenic: Loki did lot of presale/mine and made good money to fund devs
20:18:32 <nikg83[m]> Also mindset’s change, so who knows what triggered the move
20:18:46 <endogenic> i'm sure some people know
20:25:09 <nikg83[m]> Any idea if dr. Sarang will ever join mrl again ? or Cypherstack?
20:26:23 <endogenic> yep
20:26:48 <endogenic> thank you for asking, though
20:27:25 <nikg83[m]> endogenic: More bright minds the better 
20:27:33 <endogenic> i'm just wondering though, what is it about monero that causes highly devoted people's sentiments to turn bitter or harsh?
20:27:43 <endogenic> yes that's true
20:29:19 <nikg83[m]> endogenic: Community driven projects will have different views imho, hopefully individuals researchers/devs look above it 
20:29:49 <endogenic> I dont think that was ever an issue for anyone used to publicly visible and critiqueable work
20:29:51 <endogenic> something else is going on
20:30:17 <endogenic> we probably have to start with the assumption that whatever it is, is not fully visible right now
20:30:47 <endogenic> for example, why would someone feel more safe working on a different project?
20:30:51 <endogenic> it's not just the money
20:32:32 <endogenic> in any case, regardless, i think we could do better for our contributors
20:33:10 <endogenic> i remember people used to debate whether or not to fund the Noethers loil
20:33:12 <endogenic> lol
20:33:20 <endogenic> can you imagine? after some of these other CCS proposals are getting easily funded now
20:33:26 <nikg83[m]> endogenic: Maybe, keeping them anonymous would be better
20:33:38 <endogenic> there really were people who used to quibble over whether we should fund the Noethers
20:33:44 <endogenic> if they were even real
20:34:00 <endogenic> yes nikg83[m] that is one aspect
20:34:05 <nikg83[m]> endogenic: That was absurd indeed 
20:34:06 <endogenic> but it has downsides
20:34:40 <endogenic> knowing these people for who they really are we see how absurd it is that we would ever do anything other than rally virtually our entire community around supporting them
20:34:41 <rbrunner> There are always people. Everywhere. People doing, writing, saying dumb things. Just look at Monero's subreddit. They don't have to be our reference.
20:35:00 <endogenic> they're not our reference, but i dont understand why you're apologizing for them
20:35:27 <rbrunner> The world is like it is. Not a apology for anything.
20:35:35 <endogenic> the world doesnt have to be like it is
20:35:50 <endogenic> it wasnt always like this here either
20:36:17 <endogenic> i'm doing what i can but am a bit behind, so i dont have my solutions to show for it yet. guess i should get back to it :)
20:36:53 <rbrunner> If you have work that gives you pleasure, by all means continue.
20:37:08 <endogenic> lol
20:37:16 <endogenic> ^ my coping mechanism
20:37:27 <rbrunner> Yeah, mine as well.
20:37:36 <midipoet> endogenic: why don't we ask the people that left to come and tell us what we can do to improve. 
20:37:43 <endogenic> we know what we can do
20:37:45 <endogenic> i've also suggested it
20:37:51 <endogenic> but it may take a specific person to do it
20:37:53 <endogenic> so i am working on it
20:38:46 <midipoet> midipoet: from what i saw the people that left, wanted to leave, but never really openly explained to the community the reason. the only person that was really open about wanting to leave was surae
20:39:05 <midipoet> maybe i missed the convos, but that is how i saw it. 
20:39:08 <endogenic> well if i have my hand on a hot stove then i would *want* to pull it away 
20:39:19 <endogenic> bad example maybe
20:39:23 <endogenic> how about something my hand is supposed to actually be on
20:39:26 <endogenic> but which malfunctions
20:39:29 <midipoet> endogenic: yeah, that's a great metaphor, but explains jack
20:39:34 <endogenic> no it's not a great metaphor
20:39:40 <midipoet> i would rather actually hear it from a person
20:39:45 <endogenic> oh i'm not a person now lol
20:39:49 <endogenic> i saw it with my own eyes
20:39:53 <midipoet> i mean, there are the mediums for this sort of talk
20:39:54 <endogenic> and i'm telling you what i saw
20:39:57 <endogenic> you're right
20:40:02 <midipoet> monerotalk, community talks, reddit threads. 
20:40:05 <endogenic> idk why you pinged me
20:40:07 <midipoet> they can teach us
20:40:12 <midipoet> otherwise we are just guessing
20:40:14 <endogenic> no we're not
20:40:17 <endogenic> stop lying lol
20:40:22 <endogenic> lying includes saying what you dont know as if you do
20:40:24 <midipoet> or listening to your preaching (just as bad)
20:40:25 <endogenic> i should go
20:40:33 <midipoet> indeed
20:41:16 <w[m]> <endogenic> "if they were even real" <- Judging by what happened with the monero telegram channel, I think there are a lot of people getting paid to derail the convo.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/0d1788abff90b42410943b56b48a4836013c4703)
20:41:24 <endogenic> right?
20:41:32 <endogenic> people dont even have to be paid
20:42:13 <midipoet> > The first few days was non stop Nazi Jew  spam < really?
20:42:54 <midipoet> it doesn't have to be feds. could be rival projects trying to discredit the network. 
20:43:22 <midipoet> or even just individuals trying to discredit the network. it doesn't take much to be shit spreader. 
20:45:16 <w[m]> midipoet: It was *a lot*.
20:45:16 <w[m]> And real people that would argue for hours
20:45:16 <w[m]> Ive personally argues with pirate chain ppl, who clearly show up to start shit
20:47:19 <midipoet> w[m]: like, i have sort of just realised that cryptocurrency is adversarial in general. everybody is thinking they are playing a zerosum game, with the winner measured by price. it's easier (and more advantageous) to talk shit about another project, than to try and foster friendships/connections. i mean, we do it as well for most of the transparent networks
20:51:41 <fr33_yourself[m]> It is kind of zero sum for specific use cases
20:51:42 <fr33_yourself[m]> IMO
20:51:45 <jberman[m]> endogenic:  check out @hyc's idea of a background sync cache here: https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/8082
20:51:47 <endogenic> it doesnt matter who it is. anyone who disrupts the activists within the community who are trying to wake it up to how it must evolve is doing it a disservice .. and we can't just go on forever saying that the people who left were weaklings or had personality disorders
20:51:52 <fr33_yourself[m]> Like z-cash vs monero
20:52:01 <endogenic> jberman[m]: ty
20:52:01 <jberman[m]> And check out my comment here, suggesting that it be implemented virtually identically to the lws scanner in an attempt to avoid leaks to 3rd party remote nodes: https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/8082#issuecomment-1007921314
20:52:10 <jberman[m]> I think view only wallet scanning could be implemented like that as well
20:52:22 <jberman[m]> So in reality, I think the best path on that idea lands us with an lws scanner inside the code base anyway
20:52:31 <jberman[m]> I don't think it would be a huge challenge to wrap a light wallet API around that background sync cache, where the consumer of that API uses it to sync upon re-visiting, same as a light wallet client
20:52:41 <jberman[m]> Unless there is objection to that comment I made, and it should really just be coded assuming honest nodes
20:52:46 <endogenic> ah bloom filter rears its head again
20:52:57 <endogenic> vtnerd had that idea in the past iirc.. maybe 4-5 yrs ago
20:53:10 <midipoet> endogenic: > we can't just go on forever saying that the people who left were weaklings or had personality disorders < when have people said this????
20:53:51 <endogenic> i'm sorry but social cooling is now in effect
20:53:56 <endogenic> please return to your quarters
20:54:15 <endogenic> i think we should take this to another chan in any case