00:15:31 <nikg83[m]> Is there any research on how much percentage of monero hashrate comes from botnets ? and why the randomx ram requirements are not increased to promote legitimate cpu mining by lowering advantage of botnets
00:28:28 <chesterfield[m]> Botnets are legitimate 👀
00:39:02 <merope> Legitimate thieves
00:42:19 <nikg83[m]> chesterfield: no, if they have advantage over other miners ; same like asic had over cpu/gpu miners 
00:43:13 <nikg83[m]> Botnet isn’t a commodity that can be bought by anyone
00:43:29 <nikg83[m]> If botnets are legitimate then ASICS were legitimate too
00:43:58 <merope> Asics are just specialized hardware. Botnets are thieves who don't pay for the resources they abuse
00:44:05 <nioc> they could be thieving worse things
00:44:24 <merope> Sure, but that's not the point here
00:44:28 <nikg83[m]> merope: Reason for going anti asic was it was not a commodity anyone can buy 
00:45:05 <nioc> there is only one point?
00:45:07 <merope> That doesn't make them unlawful - just more centralized
00:46:09 <nikg83[m]> No, tomorrow govs can just ask Microsoft to push a update to mine monero and can keep attacking monero network
00:47:00 <merope> Technically possible? Yes. Realistic? Not so much
00:47:31 <nikg83[m]> merope: Everything is possible, can mine at 2-3% and will be effective to 51% attack 
00:47:58 <merope> Sure - but that's a probability you can directly calculate
00:48:42 <merope> Can't really calculate the mathematical probability that a government will force a private company to push a malicious software update to computers all over the world in order to perform a mining attack on a cryptocurrency
00:50:54 <nikg83[m]> I don’t understand why increasing ram limitations to effective limit botnets is such a big issue ? Ram is readily available everywhere and extremely old hardware which don’t support high ram don’t mine with enough hashrate anyways unless they are bundled into a botnet
00:52:06 <nikg83[m]> Currently we are paying only $50k/day to miners to secure the network, how many legitimate miners in there ?
00:52:17 <nikg83[m]> Other than some hobby miners
00:53:17 <chesterfield[m]> What about people mining on their free college electricity
00:53:22 <chesterfield[m]> Or an Airbnb
00:53:24 <nioc> there is monero-pow (irc roon) where this has been previously discussed 
00:53:30 <chesterfield[m]> Is that not also unfair?
00:53:49 <nikg83[m]> chesterfield[m]: Even with free power the hardware roi will in a decade 
00:54:10 <nioc> this is not really a topic for MRL
00:54:28 <chesterfield[m]> Profitable mining just incentivizes centralization
00:54:38 <merope> Individual miners/entities are hard to estimate. But we have ~100k-1M cpus
00:54:51 <nikg83[m]> nioc: What was the conclusion there ? Let botnets secure the network or I would say let a few keep securing the network 
00:54:58 <merope> chesterfield[m]: False. Profitability incentivizes mining
00:54:59 <chesterfield[m]> There is an advantage to using your brain to make Monero miners that have no hardware or electric cost
00:55:53 <nikg83[m]> chesterfield[m]: Yah effectively promoting botnet based mining 👌
00:56:15 <chesterfield[m]> Botnets help secure the internet
00:56:28 <chesterfield[m]> 😅
00:56:32 <nikg83[m]> chesterfield[m]: Until the other side uses it 
00:56:45 <chesterfield[m]> Anyone can use it
00:56:54 <merope> Botnets are first and foremost thieves. The fact that they "help" secure the network is just a lucky side-effect
00:56:54 <nikg83[m]> chesterfield[m]: No, I can’t 
00:57:00 <nioc> nikg83[m]: others in -pow can answer better than I   
00:57:09 <nioc> seems that it is as it is
00:57:14 <chesterfield[m]> Wouldn’t people just use botnet to make money?
00:57:22 <merope> The easy way to prove it is the fact that botnets operate even when they don't cause "collateral benefits"
00:57:47 <merope> chesterfield[m]: Someone somewhere has to pay for that electricity at some point
00:58:50 <chesterfield[m]> And Monero mining incentivizes people giving free things to add a price
00:59:00 <chesterfield[m]> It incentivizes vps users to use more secure infrastructure
00:59:37 <chesterfield[m]> It’s not going to be this way forever
01:00:02 <nikg83[m]> chesterfield[m]: It’s been like for eternity 
01:00:14 <nikg83[m]> * been like this for eternity
01:00:30 <chesterfield[m]> Aren’t these botnets performing cheap work for the network?
01:00:54 <chesterfield[m]> What would hashrate be if botnets disappeared
01:02:08 <nikg83[m]> chesterfield[m]: 10%
01:03:06 <nikg83[m]> chesterfield[m]: 10% or less, just how it feels 
01:04:03 <chesterfield[m]> I think there’s just a lot of incentive to mine in clever ways in Monero that doesn’t exist in asic world.
01:07:39 <nikg83[m]> chesterfield[m]: Again a centralisation 
01:07:40 <merope> So now stealing is clever, and estimates are based on feelings. Prime MRL material
01:08:12 <chesterfield[m]> I consider weak security like leaving the safe door unlocked
01:08:25 <chesterfield[m]> Ah this isn’t lounge