11:43:16 jberman: Can you elaborate on why you think the KES roadmaps still rely on trust? 13:44:44 §5 of the white paper lays out a t-of-n MPC scheme that implements a hybrid escrow system and is thus decentralised 15:32:25 Escrow means a reputation system, which requires trust. Though idk if that’s what jberman has in mind. 16:36:38 CjS77: Except it fails to establish selection of participants, economic incentives, liveness under asynchrony, etc. 16:48:57 The design and development of such a network isn't dissimilar to Serai, which not only built significant cryptography and tooling for Monero (now eligible for general use, of course), but also built multiple services. We have a service to index Monero and handle its state, a service to implement gossip/consensus and coordinate [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/irnFhfoKcTVBUGZP ] 16:49:34 One could possibly use a blockchain such as Ethereum, if one compiled a Monero light client to a ZK proof then verified in an Ethereum smart contract, along with some stake on the Ethereum network (ETH itself?) 16:50:43 But then one would have to argue revenue sufficient for the allocation of stake, which is a whole other dimension, when a Monero light client on Ethereum would already be a massive project 16:52:05 If one accepted the massive stack of something like RISC Zero, and all the work of monero-oxide/Cuprate, and the mithril Rust library for RandomX which Cuprate didn't find viable, maybe one could get a ZK proof? But I'm unsure verifying RISC Zero proofs on Ethereum is immediate, as the recursion required may be proprietary. 16:52:22 Also, there'd then be massive computational costs simply to publish Monero onto Ethereum. 16:52:42 I'm not convinced any such scheme could be cheaper than Monero transactions today. 16:53:23 Serai handles this with social consensus and a native coin, but such a solution here would suggest $GREASE, which I don't believe is a legitimate discussion. 22:33:45 > §5 of the white paper lays out a t-of-n MPC scheme that implements a hybrid escrow system and is thus decentralised 22:33:45 As I understand it, the scheme proposed is basically a large threshold multisig. That seems a bit hand wavy to me. In Serai's case, the signers have economic incentive to behave honestly: they lose their stake if they don't, and there is economic incentive for the number of signers to increase: earn rewards. I don't see any so [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/jqy0j_oKc1NyWU1B ] 22:37:21 Why not just send Monero to some huge federated ecash service instead of Grease, if at the end of the day you're relying on trust in a large enough quorum? I could see it argued that this is a step up because it relies on collusion between your channel partner and the federation, but I would say it's still a marginal step up