03:21:10 That’s kinda the core problem that I found when looking into it: because of network synchronization, attempting to prevent orphaning behavior is challenging 03:22:40 It bothers me deeply, because on paper it seems pretty obvious that if 49% of blocks posted get orphaned (in the worst case scenario of a 51% attack), that there is something wrong 03:26:35 When pos+pow combo 03:31:10 Tbh I’ve always kinda ignored that as a possibility….but maybe townforge is on to something there 03:32:41 I’ve also been thinking about Qubic’s “quorum” style consensus, and how that might be adjusted to fit Monero (sans the….odd and/or centralizing choices that were made) 03:33:37 In terms of consensus it would be the equivalent of a transition from direct democracy to a representative democracy; carrying all of the advantages and disadvantages of that 03:39:45 Proof of Settlement? 03:43:52 Tbh I’d want it to be something like that though 03:43:57 Not staking or anything 03:44:16 It is staking 03:44:29 Not direct* staking I should’ve said 03:45:07 for proof of stake: I cant imagine making whales who dont _do_ anything (like, feds or exchanges), mkre wealthy just bcuz they feel like hoarding xmr 03:45:16 Eth needs 32? 03:45:19 yeah 03:45:32 That’s possible 03:45:41 Price is in reach 03:45:49 It’s the hoarding behavior that I really do not want to incentivize 03:46:13 How is it hoarding? 03:46:27 It’s used to secure chain 03:46:52 If a staking thing was added, I’d want it to be something irreversible and somewhat cumbersome to transfer between people to reduce the chances of coalescing power 03:48:29 If it is more valuable to hold than to spend, that is very bad for an economy. 03:48:31 No, people’s money shouldn’t be vanishing quicky, but their money shouldn’t be competing with investment 03:49:13 something like particl has over 50% of all coins staked and _nobody_ uses rhe coin anymore. Just inflation for the same of accumulating. Stakers, even if losing value, are gaining power over the network simply by parking coins and walking away 03:49:52 It becomes an pro-investor pyramid scam, and less of a utility focus. Those who want to use the coins obky end up funding those who dont pay any attention 03:50:05 This is the behavior that I want to avoid 03:50:12 POS earning is negligible 03:50:13 What has current pow achieved? Ppl don’t price products in xmr they do it in Fiat 03:50:15 90% buyer vendors stay in xmr for transaction only 03:50:38 And stakers would get paid to _not use xmr at all_ 03:50:59 There is tons of xmr not in use 03:51:16 There is tons of xmr already not in use 03:51:29 That comes in to secure chain 03:51:56 Yeah, but so they get paid to not uae it while raising their % of the supply by parking it and forgetting about it for 10years? 03:52:00 Also holding is a use case 03:52:15 Yeah, but do they get paid to not uae it while raising their % of the supply by parking it and forgetting about it for 10years? (No) 03:52:35 A tiny amount of coins 03:53:07 no, its a conpounding %. Not tiny by any metric 03:53:29 The paid coins can be used 03:53:31 Part of me wants it to be something like this: 03:53:33 Person has Monero. They want to stake said Monero. In order to do that, they “burn” the Monero and in return they get some sort of on-chain “voucher” thingy that is tied directly to their address (cannot be transferred). They can stake more to get a larger voucher, *but they cannot unstake anything: no refunds, no transfers*. 03:53:35 Ok maybe transfers are allowed, but it would need to have a sharp attrition cost, at least 10%, likely more. It should be infeasible for normal transactions, but would allow for transfers in the case of an emergency 03:55:11 I think my suggestion to firo was something along the lines of: you should only be able to stake virgin coins. Not tx fees or coins you purchased. Only virgin coins that were produced by POW 03:55:33 Ooh, that’s an interesting idea 03:55:44 Eth didn’t die after switching to pos 03:55:45 But we can take a middle path of pow+pos 03:56:27 I disagree somewhat, but yeah having it split between the two would be significantly better than pure pos 03:56:29 So on Kubic can be keep doing pos 03:56:51 So only Kubic can be keep doing pos 03:57:34 on monero, this would mean that only solo/p2pool miners could stake 03:57:35 Or mining pools themselves 03:58:37 So going back to same problem? Actual holders have no stake 🤣 monkeys can fight with botnets 03:58:54 Botnets cant stake 03:59:11 They receive payouts from pools. Those arent virgin coins 04:01:20 It would add incentive to produce your own blocks, since you can only stake coinbases 04:16:54 Kubic is a pool, botnets get paid 04:18:16 Pools get paid. Qubic is solomining 04:18:33 Kubic can keep virgin coins; pay in kubic or non virgin xmr 04:20:43 their whole model to sell xmr to cover their costs - but whether they stake or not, isnt the topic. If they stake, they would have to sell less, which takes sell pressure off of the value and incentivizes mining for other ppl 04:22:12 Who knows their real goal ? What if they are actually malicious 04:22:13 Someone else can replicate it, botnets are there for sale 04:22:21 point is, a miner, botnet or otherwise.l, would get paid more to move from a centralized pool to their own pool/p2pool/solo 04:23:26 Only if their goal was to stake and not immediately get paid out 04:24:16 Only if their goal was to stake and not immediately cash out 04:24:44 exactly my point 04:25:12 Kubic can keep coins, pay botnet in their tokens 04:25:37 Only Kubic will still be doing pos with your proposal 04:27:50 They have to pay the bills to pump their qubic and rent more hashpower. And if they stake and stop dumping? So be it. 04:27:51 anyway, im anti pos on monero, but the only way i could partially agree would be if only pow virgin coins (ie solo/p2pool/pool operator) could take part in pos 04:58:14 could be farmed 05:00:42 Personally I care less about where the coins come from, and more about where they *end*. And for PoS, it should end with the stake (imo) 05:03:34 As an added “benefit”, it fixes the whole time locking issue/penalty thing that a lot of PoS chains have because, well, you *can’t* unlock 10:42:55 Rucknium are you on IRC? I don't know how to DM from IRC to matrix 11:40:25 sech1: I only got a dm from IRC once (oftc), and it was unencrypted iirc 12:06:26 hbs thank you for posting this https://github.com/hbs/MoneroMisc/blob/master/CARROT-discussion.md indeed your complete post in did not completely come through to the irc side 12:07:25 sech1: Yes, but I'm not usually logged in. I just logged in now, so you can DM: Rucknium 12:47:15 my stupid idea is to merge mine 50% of blocks with LTC 12:51:01 ? 13:29:19 ? Idk tari split their PoW into parts and it makes sense to me. you'd effectively need to accumulate different types of hardware to mount a 51% attack, plus with merge mining you'd be partially secured by the emissions and network of LTC/doge, plus it's like, free marketing 13:29:54 and if we're at the point where there's semi serious discussion about going PoS, I'd rather effectively embrace a widely distributed ASIC platform than go PoS, personally 15:55:25 looks like a very complete post hbs. Since I don't have a github account I will comment here. The simplest takeaway of your suggestion is "privacy by default" which is a key component of Monero. Does anyone see any cons with implementing this as described? 16:18:18 That also works, how decentralized is ltc mining though ? 16:34:50 Depends how decentralized you like your bitmain 17:07:22 kayabanerve: https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/134#issuecomment-3128184730 18:53:25 depends on your measure I guess, more so than a lot of PoS networks for sure 18:53:27 a quick look shows 4 or 5 different brands of scrypt miners though, not just bitmain