00:00:00 it is 00:00:15 \> haven't achieved 51% 00:00:20 \> spread complete misinfo 00:00:23 \> make people panic 00:00:30 \> spread bots all over the community 00:00:41 \> exchanges have blocked xmr over false informations 00:00:51 the real impact of qubic is psychological 00:00:59 i mean beyond being a marketing stunt.. that implies having another objective, like changing moneros protocol 00:01:16 We have mining botnets, not on social media though 😅 00:01:46 Psyop or not, three letter agencies will happily use the strategy 00:01:54 I think botnets are starting to show their limit unfortunately 00:02:19 Psyop or not, three letter agencies will happily use the strategy if the mining rigs are ready 00:05:12 they do currently have 40% of the hashrate so I don't think we should just ignore that 00:05:48 Does anybody else have a good understanding of blockDAG and can explain why exactly it's not more secure against reorgs? 00:06:13 running moneroconsensus locally? 00:06:24 oh nvm website works 00:06:33 https://miningpoolstats.stream/monero 00:06:58 Qubic has been faking his API 00:07:00 if curious, they haven't done selfish mining nor attempted a reorg since last time 00:07:07 this isn't reliable at all 00:07:12 have they, looked honest to me ngl 00:07:22 yes they have, multiple time 00:07:23 we don't look at the api :) 00:07:26 its all over r/monero 00:07:43 only trust moneroconsensus.info 00:08:12 they turn their miners on and off so I don't think you can just count blocks 00:08:20 moneroconsensus.info gets the info from my code too! which gets it from pool api's ... 00:08:26 They once claimed like 14gh 00:08:48 ah I didn't see that 😆 00:09:55 So did supportxmr (multiple times) 00:10:54 DataHoarder: really? 00:10:58 Again, zcash has a pool with 75%. The % means youre essentially at the mercy of the % holder, but doesnt mean instant destruction 00:11:03 I thought it was using Ruck custom code 00:11:14 see footer, syntheticbird 00:11:17 Ruck is using datahoardera code, see footnote 00:11:22 their site is theirs fully 00:11:27 mea culpa 00:11:44 I had just made that gathering tool long ago and added a few changes to have a bit more data and orphans 00:12:13 well ig if i really wanted to be sure i should run the script with the new view key 00:12:18 their R backend (woah) does all the website, charting, querying monerod and building a proper meaning out of the data 00:12:35 from 40 to >50% means they need +50% of their current hashrate, 20% net increase. 00:12:35 I'm not sure how checkpointing, if that were implemented, doesn't prevent smaller re-orgs / squeezes all other miners out. I guess they could still squat all the blocks somehow even with max-reorg checkpoints 00:12:56 DataHoarder: ack. 00:14:14 what I have seen so far that usually at least the hashrate numbers usually are pretty close recently, specially during marathons 00:14:17 user2570: Because it isn't magic, and if it follows PoW to decide the best chain, the best chain can be defined as a single blockchain with no relative blocks. 00:14:29 compared to what they pump out in their networks 00:15:09 the fact the have this much hashrate is shocking enough, yes they need more for 51%. with 51% they can just mine all blocks with a max reorg depth but they can't invalidate txs past a certain depth 00:15:42 with the eth proposal they wouldn't be able to get all blocks, only ones they mine first 00:18:10 eth proposal doesn't involve staking / PoS? 00:18:37 it involves pushing all blocks to eth 00:19:05 and using the fist block on eth as the finalized block 00:19:49 sounds good I guess 00:20:10 now you need to run an eth client to run a monero node tho 00:21:03 How much ram / storate that involve for full nodes? 00:21:24 full eth nodes, multiple terabytes 00:21:31 at least rpc interface to eth and an eth wallet if you are mining? 00:21:46 For eth node ? PETA bytes for full node in a few years ? 00:22:32 Yeah, don't work for me. 00:22:33 I do have two wallet full node, but there not unlimited in storage. 00:22:35 One of them is free-ish, other one have a real cost I pay for myself 00:23:53 I don't want to be reliant on eth 00:24:13 me neither 00:24:30 Yeah. Excuse my french, but fk that 00:25:02 you should say "Au diable" 00:25:05 Id rather be reliant on fluffypony manually updating the dns record every 10 blocks 00:25:19 Au diable calis 00:25:33 I'm not sure why this data availability on eth is needed.. can we not use tx_extra or something to store the latest eth block hash? 00:27:21 how would that prevent deep reorgs 00:27:56 if only negative reorgs would be a thing 00:28:05 past generated future blocks 00:29:02 maybe I'm tired.. but lookup any competing block's stored eth block hash / block number, and go with the earliest? 00:29:23 I think there needs to be a new room called panic brainstorming 00:29:46 best idea ever brought in this channel 00:29:48 I can mine all blocks and just reference eths genesis block? 00:30:05 And let’s leave researchers in this lounge 00:30:16 confirmed :D I AM tired 00:30:52 boog900: It wouldn't be terabytes as we could prune them. 00:31:51 full eth node is what I thought was meant 00:33:13 But we wouldn't need a full Ethereum block. 00:33:17 *full Ethereum node 00:33:52 Qubic keeps flipping the on and off switch on their hashrate pool. 00:36:26 Thanks for the news 00:36:45 This is research lounge tho 00:36:56 Yes but it’s very relevant to what’s going on right now 00:37:06 its not 00:37:22 Did they flip on at 51% and start orphaning blocks? 00:37:47 We dont need a play-by-play for business-as-usual 00:38:17 Like my response, the play-by-play is just noise 00:38:35 No they keep flipping it on and off and the orphaned blocks are still very low 00:40:30 Ok, again, thanks for the news report. Will ping you next time i need an update. Feel free to lmk if its an emergency 00:41:03 Ok back to my hibernation 00:43:52 technically qbit wont attack us, they just want to prove we can be attack 00:44:32 id say because they are public and this is a malicious illegal things to do Lol .. 00:46:14 waiting for them to do direct malicious action is a loss of precious time against real attacker who wont announce themself.. 00:47:56 gotta play one step ahead.. qbit isnt the nefarious attacker but someone bigger who gonna learn its possible 00:49:58 I think you’re right, if they really wanted to do like a double spend or something disastrous like that, they likely would have been able to pull it off already. 00:58:06 as weird it sound maybe we should get a peace treaty with qbit and just stop this drama nonsense somehow, we just need to fix the hole in our hull in the meantime 00:58:32 idk maybe they just need to heard 51% is possible with enought ressource 01:02:27 I dont think they gaining much money mining xmr at 230$ .. 01:04:22 What should we do? 01:11:24 think 01:11:32 I mean not you, but everyone, lol. 01:12:02 we got to debate a solution, either asic, hybrid, finality layer or something' 01:13:04 PoW concensus work very well, so well its about to be calculable where we gonna died because we couldnt secure the network enought to the demand 01:13:45 I think everyone can graps its a complicated time and require complicated fix 01:14:12 it was debated and talked about above ^ 01:14:19 we should continues 01:14:22 people aren't active 24/7 01:14:28 thats fine. 01:14:37 great things take times 01:15:20 qbit isnt the direct threats here. and if we can help them win so we, win also some precious time to fix this 01:16:02 when I say help them win I mean just approve pow is not perfect and has flaw 01:16:22 I have so many logs to read through 😵‍💫 01:16:23 no concensus is perfect 01:21:08 or just ignore them anyway 01:21:15 gotta fix concensus 100% 01:22:32 Im a miner who has about 2x more ressource in my hardware than owning xmr .. trying hard is not enought 01:30:07 They stopped again something is definitely going on. This is like the 4th time they turned off and on in like 3 hours 01:51:01 that is just how they mine 01:51:06 they don't mine 24/7 01:51:18 they mine roughtly every hour, for 30 minutes 01:51:37 they usually are mining their own qubic stuff, then on "idle" period they mine monero 01:52:21 the special part has been marathons, which are listed in their own code 01:53:03 this is the relevant mining phase code https://github.com/qubic/core/blob/33dc1fae90e6814bde7a33447031b253319f1978/src/qubic.cpp#L1909-L1989 01:53:51 these are the defined times they do marathons (24h mining) https://github.com/qubic/core/blob/main/src/public_settings.h#L105-L113 01:54:18 there is nothing weird going on, @barthman132:matrix.org 01:54:48 Oh ok 01:55:03 yeah thats just how their stupid shit work 01:55:43 Im not worried about qbit itself but what they showing publically that with enough ressource it easy to 51% attack, dont need milions if hardware is already available for AI .. 01:56:27 it feel like bitmain again but in another dimension threats 01:57:00 maybe make xmr pow only using rasperie pie Lol .. 01:57:21 or hybrid /finality. 01:59:11 I think a hybrid between a POS and a POW is a good idea. Because i believe you would need to attack both to achieve a 51% attack 01:59:11 if you guys are confident enought that FCMP will bring enough economic and side project to bring hashrate maybe concensus pow will be okey but its a real dillema 01:59:48 Lot of people are against it because they thing only about the negative/ 01:59:54 think* 02:00:21 aka possible centralization of the node, which actually happen already on PoW using botnet.. 02:01:20 we forked like 50 time since xmr exist I dont get how people are so against little change. 02:01:34 Yeah decentralization for pow right now is basically a sham in my opinion. You can basically buy out both POS and POW it’s just different methods of doing so 02:02:45 if you want to advocate hybrid it need a good talk on how it keep his decentralized advantage using PoW 02:03:49 basically we need to shuffle the xmr twitter or website and start doing some article toward community 02:04:11 (imo) 02:04:37 a community event talk ? 02:04:55 just brainstorming 02:06:42 How much do you think FCMP will help monero in terms of publicity? 02:09:19 Kraken paused Monero deposits, claiming that a single pool has gained more than 50% of the network's total hashing power. Is Qubic's API lying about its hashpower? https://status.kraken.com/incidents/7ps8ws8hkym8 02:09:54 No not yet, but they’re getting pretty close 02:10:11 Kraken, IMO, is likely responding to the reporting by CoinTelegraph? earlier today (and similar) which wasn't substantiated. 02:10:14 the hashpower reported is roughly accurate 02:10:19 the percentage, is not 02:10:57 They note they detected, but I assume they noticed the risk of the event, not the event itself? 02:10:57 estimating that involves more than they do, and even if they used a rough estimate it's wildly off. 02:11:09 There has yet to be evidence of an actual 51%. 02:11:29 qubic mining monero also rises monero difficulty, so they lose the "50%" they had when they started 02:12:12 they can have vastly less and still achieve reorgs, of course 02:12:56 that's purely luck. an entity with consistently more than 50% would be able to, in the long term, continuously make their own secret chain longer 02:13:32 when they had less hashpower, they did 2-3 block chains as that happens regularly 02:13:59 they did not report blocks they lost (they got outmined, orphaned). this data has been gathered for future reference, btw 02:14:42 <321bob321:monero.social> https://riat.at/reaction-coindesk-research-article-alleged-51-attack-on-monero-pow-network/ 02:14:43 <321bob321:monero.social> Pwnd 02:15:35 they were very lucky with the specific long reorg they had, as, monero pools got very unlucky, not producing blocks for 20-30 minutes, and they also got very lucky, producing quite a short peak of blocks 02:15:55 quite some blocks in a short time, at peak* 02:19:05

How much do you think FCMP will help monero in terms of publicity? ----- I cant know the future, and I think none cant... we might need a certain way to know we it would only happen with enforcing a new concensus imo 02:20:44 market reaction is definitively out of our reach, while we can expect positive, to how much, and how substainable it would be ? Too many question to base the security of monero on the unknown 02:21:38 While it would be the best thing to happen its also seem, realitically, the worst also 02:23:25 fcmp could help publically, but strong enforcement on kicking out botnet and making sure real dedicated people expend on monero is somewhat assured... it would need another plan with fcmp basically 02:27:42 What can we do in terms of making it easier to buy monero? I think a big problem is that even if a average person wants monero, they simply don’t know how or the process is simply too complicated. 02:28:59 Monero being delisted by a lot of exchanges has hurt its growth in the long run unfortunately 02:30:14 we can both agree its an extremely complicated question 02:30:50 def PoS system of staking does give some mechanical incentive to hold monero and prompt up PoW part but the intrequasy of the concensus is out of my reach 02:31:08 we need multiple brain on this 02:32:32 main concern I read on different forum and disc is about centralization when it come to finality layer/hybrid, maybe start addressing a formal answer could help driving the discution toward a fix 02:34:41 I think that too. We need to have some incentive to actually hold your monero. Sure centralization is a problem, but we have in reality been dealing with centralization hashrate problems for years with the current pow. I believe supportxmr had 40 to close to 50% of the hashrate for a while before qubic 02:41:09 Or they are activating their NGU soft fork 02:41:30 No deposits = no dumping. But you can buy with withdraw 🥹 02:43:29 Research 02:43:44 This is why I think we should maybe address the situation from a core standpoint as many people do have many different opinion that doesnt necessarely reflect the reality of the long term problem we suffer 02:45:27 Yes centralization from pool and botnet standpoint may be as bad as PoS but what if someone come with factual argument that not only finality/hybrid fix this problem but ensure security,preservation and soverignty 02:45:44 stays* 02:46:23 There are numerous proposals on the table 02:46:49 arent those proposal still on research standpoint only ? 02:46:56 Ive saw the rick ones 02:47:14 (not saying its bad, havent seen the other one) 02:47:57 not necessarily. We might hage already started coding on them, but design choices and drawbacks need sorting out 02:48:12 definitively 02:49:12 Like dns checkpoints - we can enable these by default (already a feature, but disabled), and have them automatically updated to reject deep reorgs / to checkpoint the old chain 02:49:35 Thats a near instant bandaid that takes maybe 30mins to implement 02:50:10 again I dont think qbit is a direct threats as they are just trying to make themself public known using us, lets just assume they win. We need to concentrate on the solution 02:50:23 Instant meaning, its not a new feature, just a new release with 1 or 2 lines of code changed, and a bash script 02:50:51 But this isnt "good" long term (its centralized), its an emergency measure 02:51:08 realistically, how long it might take to code a Hybrid/finality layer ? 02:51:32 Probably at least 6 months? 02:51:38 ahh, its not even the question tho, people cant focus on a single question I feel 02:51:50 Hybrid i assume much less 02:51:52 6 month seem good enough 02:52:04 but if people dont want to heard shit.. 02:52:29 how this thing work, how preserve monero privacy 02:52:42 on their side, PoW is only possible 02:52:52 if were adding pos, i still only like my proof of pow 🤷‍♂️, but i'm not smart enough to understand why others dont 02:53:17 Im a big miner... I wont advocate for only pow, but At the end, im here for privacy 02:53:25 My proof of pow would essentially only allow pos for miners.. 02:53:36 its just a vehicule for privacy, i cant change vehicule 02:53:41 I can* 02:54:05 as a miner, what do you think about hybrid pos where you can only stake coinbases 02:54:30 another reasoning I hear.. hybrid is more point of failure.. 02:55:07 (while negationing the strenghtening of security) 02:55:33 wdym only coinbase? 02:55:39 staking only on coinbase ? 02:56:00 Only your block rewards can be staked, is that i mean 02:56:24 hm 02:56:42 so only your gain from staking OR mining can be staked 02:56:46 ? 02:56:56 Cant stake coins after you transact with them. This would exclude exchanges, whales, dnm, government etc from being able to stake 02:57:08 its.. interesting 02:57:25 but also, hurt the mechanical incentive toward economic 02:57:40 You can only initially stake your POW mines coins. Then once staked, you can earn extra on them. But the only way to become a staker, is to mine 02:58:17 problem is most of monero distribution is already done 02:58:22 imo 02:58:42 doing this is hurting the benefice of using pow 02:58:50 thats fine. If the coins have been spent, then the new stake is distributed "fairly" 02:58:53 its a great ideas for a starting coin tho 02:59:16 for a starting coin, i think a bad idea 02:59:26 maybe something like a timelimit, or mixing it with PoW ? 02:59:30 like you got to have hashrate 02:59:40 its really tweaking 02:59:50 hybrid is a no brainer 03:00:13 we really just have to decide what the best way to do it 03:00:16 late adopters wont be able to get any meaningful stake, because early block rewards were so large. So it would only work with a flat emission (like tail emission) 03:00:47 My last message is: if starting from genesis 03:11:44 Would there be a minimum amount of stake like ethereum? 03:12:22 from this question, why does ETH has choose 32 eth minimum to stake 03:12:24 could answer alot 03:12:28 (idk the answer) 03:13:00 they already put alot of ressource studying those question 03:13:16 ressources and time, we may not have. 03:14:04 if im a dummies dumb dumber and idk shit (which is probibalistically the right answer) Id say 1xmr 1 vote so as the minimum staking requirement 03:15:32 (while very importantly requiring the hold the pow faction which im somewhat in, 1 cpu 1 vote ) but the synergy might drive the both up 03:15:45 Makes sense we should keep the staking requirements low, because if we don’t. only like the top 5% of miners would be able to even own any stake. 03:17:00 indeed, keeping requirement as plausibly lower as possible 03:24:58 How can we make mining more profitable? Because if we’re going in that direction where you can only stake with mining profits. Then we still run in the problem where only whales are realistically able to mine monero in any sort of profitability. 03:26:18 isnt already the case with pow ? 03:26:33 Doesn't this hurt fungibility? How do you distinguished between stakeable and non-stakeable XMR? 03:26:38 botnet malware are extremely powerfull now, it cost them nothing/. 03:27:23 Also, doesn't it kinda miss the point that nation state attackers are going to have more mining equipment than you, and thus more stakeable XMR? 03:27:59 having both option wouldnt make it 2x more secure if not more ? 03:28:15 its another step ahead for someone with big ressource to wage war against us 03:28:30 I get that, but if we’re going to a hybrid system and don’t change the financial incentives to mine monero. Then the only people able to own stake are whales who just run with botnets 03:30:09 right, but with fcmp and with different L2s project and experimentation, wouldnt it be too crazy to think incentive is multiplated ? 03:31:02 sorry I think it doesnt even anwser directly your question, but certainly more opportunity small people are attract to 03:32:30 I state before that market expectation is our of our reach. 03:32:41 is out* 03:33:21 maybe just gonna go yolo and embrace the market Lol .. 03:33:29 True fcmp will definitely help us, but it’s not if it will help us, but how much will it help monero price in general. Monero has released updates like dandelion in 2020 and many other changes over the years. But still the price of monero has stayed around 100 to 300 dollars for like 8 years now. 03:34:37 dandelion havent attract more developper 03:34:50 fallowing sol/eth gain, its mostly from side project 03:35:19 if we need average market gain to preserve and secure xmr long run we need to attract more developper who will build either core or side project 03:35:59 Im not a phd and Im not sure to fully understand FCMP, but how can it help us bring new technology and experiment on the market 03:36:35 (through dev and community) 03:38:08 I hear about grease, which is actually awsome in the way it bring talk, but we need like 10 of those project 03:41:34 I believe fcmp can be a catalyst just like ringCT was in 2016, but as market has expended we need some better structure to power the change, like maybe a marketing fundation 03:45:35 sorry to speak so much, I hope we can find a solution for the greatest privacy project out there to survivre and also, thrive 03:55:44 I did think monero was doing well in terms of growth from 2024 to early 2025. I think we just have to find a way to make it easier to buy monero and just add new features like FCMP. 03:58:11 I think that too, we still doing well, the problem is not well enought for an 3-4-5ghs attacker , how can it become a problem ? Maybe its not at the end and FCMP will close economic gap we need to secure the network 03:58:25 not well enought security* 03:59:13 but we could secure that question while also releasing/working/expecting fcmp gains 03:59:20 through hybrid or smth 04:00:51 vitalik did explain his reasoning switching to pos from a distributive and security standpoint, some argument does make sense 04:00:57 I think at this point a hybrid system between pos and pow is the way forward. Sure there will be people against it, but at this point it’s a necessary change. 04:01:57