03:13:25 you can now click on all blocks (except red selfish ones) in https://blocks.p2pool.observer/ and get to a page with more details, including orphan ones. example https://blocks.p2pool.observer/block/23e4024f7ad91f52b2c7ec52beb615cfee9df42f0459d906da92403a5661246f 03:13:38 Also lists withheld transactions that have been detected https://blocks.p2pool.observer/block/7d8915c920cabff946b5b41e5e357d556a03b9e3708eec33d5e3043a0676b88d 03:16:35 example orphaned block https://blocks.p2pool.observer/block/b328e263ee0d741d6edeccd9f5ab9be0e4575e0c6aa8d9392c48beda6ed01260 03:30:50 totally forgot about it. you can also download the block template hex directly or the curl command to import directly to local monero via RPC. This is kept on a database so the alt blocks should exist. Alt blocks are found by randomly sampling open monero nodes with RPC in the network. 03:31:00 These are stored in database for safekeeping 03:31:31 You should be able to access any alt block via its block id, coinbase id or merkle root hash in merge mining extra tag 03:31:45 add /hex or /curl to the endpoint 03:31:55 (or press the button) 08:00:31 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/jITEKEUMxGTTFzTiYOFAFyDL (To all the people who still think the current pow is secure) 08:03:13 go back to sleep 08:15:48 Look, Element tells me that this room has 454 participants. Maybe again that much might be watch from the IRC side. That's almost 1000 people. If we all think PoW is not secure, and if we all together worry as hard as we can, that will help. 08:19:45 Look man I buy hashrate during their marathons, but there’s only so much I can do. We don’t know if they did a double spend or not. Anybody who thought that qubic couldn’t get an extra 1 gh/s to pull off an 51% is just wrong. having cheap hashrate that anyone can buy. Is basically a worse version of pos that the POW people complain about. 08:20:50 @barthman132:matrix.org: > This user glows in the dark 08:21:50 Well, I don't think renting 1 GH/s is cheap, at least if you do it longer than the 1 hour or so you need to show off with such a large reorg as a PR stunt. 08:24:00 It’s not, but compared to how much money these guys have. It might as well be a Burger King sandwich. The electricity needed to pull off a 51% attack on Bitcoin per day is around 25 million. For monero it’s probably like 100k to rent it for a day to get 51% of the network. 08:24:23 >It’s not, but compared to how much money these guys have. 08:24:30 You actually do not have this information 08:25:15 >For monero it’s probably like 100k to rent it for a day to get 51% of the network. 08:25:20 show calculation otherwise bullshit 08:25:40 I sense some pro-PoS arguments incoming ... or the pro tip to switch from Monero to Bitcoin :) 08:26:50 Maybe we should just implement a PoS Monero variant, make a hardfork and then let people freely decide on which chain they want to stay ... 08:27:19 I think it should not be too hard to copy over Zano's PoS code 08:28:22 https://www.crypto51.app/. Here’s all the cryptocurrency 51% for the electricity costs. So to rent the hashrate needed to attack monero. It would take around 100k to 200k 08:28:52 Do note the "theoretical cost" in there ... 08:29:06 @barthman132:matrix.org: That's funny you say that because this site do not list Monero 08:30:12 In theory I can mine RandomX with paper and pencil and help to push up the hashrate, LMAO 08:30:51 Yes but 100k to 200k at most is around the range for monero. Also keep in mind that people mine qubic freely and it’s easier for them to do an attack, because thousands of people mine for qubic 08:31:22 @barthman132:matrix.org: Repeating won't help you. Show calculation otherwise your argument is worthless 08:31:38 Okay, go to AWS/Azure/Google cloud and ask them if you can rent 4 GH/s worth of EPYC CPUs for 100k :D 08:31:49 They'll send you faaaar and very quickly :D 08:32:24 And it's the only places where you can realistically find that much hashrate 08:32:45 MRR doesn't have enough, but even there the hashrate is like 3x more expensive than you wrote 08:33:03 They don’t need to straight up rent that much hashrate, because most of their hashrate is straight up mined by their people. > Okay, go to AWS/Azure/Google cloud and ask them if you can rent 4 GH/s worth of EPYC CPUs for 100k :D 08:33:18 red herring 08:33:19 as usual 08:33:25 change tactic @barthman132:matrix.org you're boring 08:33:26 Most of their hashrate is a few Chinese datacenters 08:33:32 and it's paid for by their coin's emission 08:33:40 "their people" don't contribute much 08:35:25 I wonder what the PoS apologists will say when PoS is implemented and we become big exchanges'/govenment bitches :D Because guess who has most XMR in one wallet - exchanges and governments who confiscated XMR before 08:36:00 and exchanges have to answer to governments, so in the end it's just one entity 08:37:03 sech1: Some people here are truly playing naive thinking the great market rules applies to everyone equally 08:37:09 Even if this is true. Doesn’t that just mean that anybody wealthy enough can just rent those data centers. Second of all if the US government wants to it can shut down monero tomorrow. Also most exchanges ban monero anyway, so it’s extremely unlikely that they actually hold that much tbw. > Most of their hashrate is a few Chinese datacenters 08:38:12 @barthman132:matrix.org: a lot of unjustified premises i see 08:38:39 Name them 08:39:12 >Second of all if the US government wants to it can shut down monero tomorrow. <- Unjustified and unrelated to the dilemma at hand 08:39:25 >Also most exchanges ban monero anyway, so it’s extremely unlikely that they actually hold that much tbw. <- retarded 08:40:02 So if my grampa keeps 20% of the world gold supply in his garage but don't sell it to anyone that means he virtually don't have this gold 08:40:05 epic 08:40:37 Seized supply is not in the hand of exchanges 08:40:42 so unrelated 08:45:17 type faster 08:46:03 sech1: Most proPoSnents seems to be comfortable with leaving the ethos of Monero behind, sacrifying the egalitarian, permissionless and resilient nature of the coin we all love so much. Decentralization, and yes I know a few pools seem to bring centralization to the lot, or at least design so decentralization is possible is a [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/o8yZh7UKVVJob2dC ] 08:49:03 both points are true. I’m saying for the exchange point that most exchanges have banned monero and it’s unlikely that it’s a significant investment for them. Even for coins like bitcoin and ethereum total supply is around 10 to 20 percent is controlled by exchanges. 08:49:41 @syntheticbird: . 08:51:49 Seized supply is in direct access to the US government and can be used for any operations deemed legitimate 08:52:07 They have millions worth of XMR 08:52:18 There is no exchange compliance logistic needed to attack PoS 08:52:35 while for PoW, there is a direct logistic cost 08:53:46 So if we hypothetically decide to go over PoS, we open the door to easy, instantaneous take over by a known threat 08:55:43 I mean dude, if you think attacking the monero pow network right now would be that much of a challenge for the US. Then Idk what to tell you. Also can you provide a source for this information, because there is only 18 million monero in circulation right now. > <@syntheticbird> Seized supply is in direct access to the US government and can be used for any operations deemed legitimate 09:00:03 @barthman132:matrix.org: learn to read 09:00:15 >millions worth of XMR 09:00:31 =/= millions of XMR 09:00:42 >that much of a challenge for the US 09:00:46 you are twisting my word 09:00:52 I never said it was difficult for the US 09:01:12 just we passed from easy to trivial by migrating to PoS 09:02:14 what do exchanges banning monero have to do with PoW lol 09:02:32 "They have millions worth of XMR" Well, @syntheticbird:monero.social , now it's turn to ask you to substantiate that somehow? I don't remember large XMR sizing operations, but maybe my old brain is just lacking 09:03:11 i believe europol is the one seizing XMR for DNMs, but i could be wrong 09:07:45 helene: It doesn’t matter in terms of pow, but in terms of POS a argument I hear is that exchanges would just control the supply of monero and hold the most, but in terms of actual amount it’s around 10 to 15 percent. Also against the DNM point. The us government also seizes tons of bitcoin from illegal activity, but in t [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/w4rph7UKbkJQZlFH ] 09:08:44 i'm against PoS because it prevents basically about anyone from getting monero anonymously in exchange for electricity and CPU power, which is a crucial goal for monero 09:09:39 we can't know how much XMR exchanges and governments have, but it's not unreasonable to imagine if a switch to PoS was to happen, they would have strong incentives to stake to deanonymise transactions, and to force known-stakers to collaborate 09:12:45 helene: We can know. The figures are public for good part. And the reminder can be derived from known amount of Bitcoin seizures. 09:12:57 Grok, based on known figures of Bitcoin seized from Darknet Markets operations and other illicit trades alike, would you be able to estimate how much Monero has been seized? I don't need the fiat value, just the number of coins. 09:12:57 Grok Expert: 09:12:57 Approximately 2,100,000 Monero (XMR) have been seized by law enforcement from darknet markets and related illicit activities, based on known seizure figures for Bitcoin (roughly 300,000 BTC) and the proportion of darknet transactions involving Monero versus Bitcoin (around 70-80% based on market acceptance and volumes). 09:12:57 [... more lines follow, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/0OT7h7UKZjFVTkV5 ] 09:13:12 for seized monero, it is public; for intelligence agencies acquiring monero, not so much :) 09:13:26 true :) 09:13:39 so could be even more than the estimate, and counting 09:14:18 PoS is totally out of question just on those basis alone. We're not Zcash or Zano 09:15:06 I'll just keep with the directly seized XMR thanks you > <@radanne:matrix.org> Grok, based on known figures of Bitcoin seized from Darknet Markets operations and other illicit trades alike, would you be able to estimate how much Monero has been seized? I don't need the fiat value, just the number of coins. 09:15:16 Projecting BTC seized into XMR is non sense 09:15:30 there are many Monero-like projects offering PoS, Monero is allowed to be different :) 09:15:32 XMR have colossally less liquidity 09:15:48 and trying to actually exchange that much wouldn't be incognito 09:16:21 It's not non-sense. The specific cases report are incomplete. 09:16:42 You can make the effort and go find the rest, rather than "going by it" 09:16:45 @radanne:matrix.org: so you don't understand what I just said 09:16:52 with the remainder extrapolated from broader privacy coin seizures reported in 2023-2025 ($92 million to $145 million annually, assuming 70-80% Monero). 09:17:01 425,000 XMR slumbering in the wallets of some DNMs so that law enforcement can seize it just like that? That's around 100,000,000 USD. A bit sceptical why that would be 09:17:20 The remainder is extrapolated from reported PRIVACY COIN seizures 09:17:21 @radanne:matrix.org: Most criminals don't hold their value in XMR 09:17:24 it's a known fact 09:17:44 BTC and ETH are used for storing value 09:17:48 and converted in XMR when needed 09:17:58 Goverments do, they also constitute of "criminals" > <@syntheticbird> Most criminals don't hold their value in XMR 09:18:09 my thoughts would be more that some XMR might have been seized a while ago, while XMR was fairly low; but it is true that most might not hold in XMR 09:18:32 They don't allow the coins back to market. Every monero seized remains in their custody 09:19:02 Thanks radanne, If you feel like you have something as worthless to write, try hard to make that feeling go way. If at any point you feel like you wanna leave please do so 09:19:14 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/BhyBBdUeqPNtFvmgPgSMvavJ.png (image.png) 09:21:10 @syntheticbird: Well I will take it as dumb opinion and ignore it. Since clearly you don't have any valid reasoning and feel like attacking me. Don't worry my skin is thick as it comes. Not winning an argument with me. 09:21:15 @radanne:matrix.org: What is the source of this page? 09:22:07 https://www.justice.gov/archives/ag/page/file/1326061/download 09:24:55 @radanne:matrix.org: Thanks for the information. Also it’s not really surprising that the US government just sits on the seized coins, but it’s nice to have confirmation. 09:27:33 well, it's a pinky promise that they are sitting on them; it can only be confirmed that they do so for public chains 09:30:13 helene: Who knows what the US is going to do. It terms of crypto holders, even the UAE likely have more bitcoin then the US government 09:30:13 https://www.ccn.com/news/crypto/bhutan-top-crypto-nations-full-list-of-countries/ 09:35:44 @barthman132:matrix.org: the article literally says otherwise 09:38:07 @basses:matrix.org: Oh oops I’m dumb it said previously rumored. But still 200,000 bitcoin isn’t that much tbh for a government 09:47:13 grim trigger activated, I guess 09:51:07 I am a bit surprised they did, frankly. It may backfire so that in the end they acted against their own self interest. But I guess the pressure from the "peanut gallery" became too strong given the opportunity 09:51:44 they likely did it because exchanges (kraken) raised mininum deposit confs 09:51:53 was there really a 18 block deep re-org? moneroconsensus shows that.. 09:52:01 But i still would hope exchanges like mexc delist qubic 09:55:41 @rbrunner7:monero.social "I am a bit surprised...": their self-interest is social clout, maintaining drama and potentially to destabilize the social fabric of Monero. there was nothing happening for a while now, so they moved. momentum is important to them. 09:55:58 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/PIwVbSdgvjHSfYDwdTKUYIzP.png (IMG_0840.png) 09:55:59 @venture: Yes unfortunately 09:58:39 They must’ve turned their database miners off, because they’re getting 25 to 30 percent of the blocks now for about 2 hours 10:00:38 118 txs invalidated 10:02:35 15% of our mining pool have been orphaned and the same number for theirs. 10:02:56 somebody has timing on when the first block rival was published by them? 18 blocks were probably not published all-at-once 10:03:45 @chaser: they take whatever situation is given and run with it the best they can. I expect that once rolling DNS checkpoints are activated and followed by NOSH+ pools, they will launch a social bot campaign to spread "oH LoOk we made Monero go back to centralization". they need to farm the semblance of the upper hand because their token is down 40% from the August peak. 10:03:56 @barthman132:matrix.org: yeah, it might not be even "profitable" as in, they are not making more money than honest mining... we have quite good block propagation 10:04:28 @chaser: Their campaign can such mah ballz 10:04:49 And so can the idea of reorging 10+ blocks 10:05:27 @venture: That’s true! The amount of profit miners make from Qubic has gone down drastically, however it’s not having as much of an effect as I would have hoped 10:12:08 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/TdcvhMbKIGsRCRCKRlIJMjfY.png (IMG_0841.png) 10:12:08 TBF the margin mining qubic vs monero is much thinner than it used to be 10:16:11 @barthman132:matrix.org: that can't be translated directly to qubic's xmr gains. xmr profit exceeding hashrate share might be close to 0. CFB said on twitter miners are paid regardless of their block's been orphaned or not. 10:18:38 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/fVBeStGEcDVSUMLUfBJoFHJq. (The margins are still much better than they used to be. Sure qubic miners still make more, but what I’m saying is it’s just not as much as before.) 10:21:16 Anyone got an idea of where Qubic ranks in the world of DDOS attacks, in terms of resources it must be one of the biggest ever? 10:24:16 tokr: I recall Tor and i2p had DDoS going for weeks before, also this is a bit different kind of attack 10:26:05 "Qubic blocks in last 1440 heights: 333 (23.12%), orphaned 140/473 (29.60%), total orphan rate 43.34%, efficiency 86.19%" 10:26:22 efficiency 86.19% means they lose XMR because of selfish mining, even after all their reorgs 10:26:38 so it's just an expensive PR stunt for them 10:26:46 Sure, but it is an attack to disrupt a public service infrastructure, we're still at "disruption" level, right? 10:26:55 yep 10:27:08 > <@barthman132:matrix.org> That’s true! The amount of profit miners make from Qubic has gone down drastically, however it’s not having as much of an effect as I would have hoped 10:27:08 Its needs time as they paid once a week i think give it another month or two once they see there electricity bills compared there mining earnings you see many start to drop off. As from what i understood you got most mining tari as well with there GPU's going off when i mined tari I used RTX 4090 it was using around 300-350 wa [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/1-mLirUKaVV6dXlt ] 10:27:25 You can send emails to exchanges that list Qubic to notify them that they list a malicious attacker, and it's best to shutdown them :D 10:27:47 After today's reorg, they are malicious 10:31:28 shouldn't he be arrested? CFB 10:31:51 publicy attacking a service 10:32:21 thanks for this! > efficiency 86.19% means they lose XMR because of selfish mining, even after all their reorgs 10:32:22 which is usually a known illegal thing "disruption of a service" 10:32:35 theoretically, yes 10:32:38 @basses:matrix.org: He lives in Belarus I doubt they care 10:32:48 practically, we can only ask exchanges to delist them as they are malicious 10:32:53 How much damage could Q do if they attacked some other critical infrastructure (what would be vulnerable beyond crypto?). Maybe we should change the narrative ? 10:34:38 tokr: loss of $$ 10:35:01 customers frustration 10:35:14 Qubic is a botnet. They have full control of their miners, so they could in theory DDoS just about anything. 10:35:57 basically a threat actor 10:36:05 TA 10:36:20 Their mining software has a remote code execution capability, so they are not limited to mining Monero. 10:36:23 They're a bit more than that, it's not just lightbulbs with a network connection 10:37:09 It sure af looked like lightbulbs with a neteork connection when they mined on p2pool 10:37:37 Ton of orphans 10:37:42 Uncles* 10:38:46 in light of this, PoP with k=3 wouldn't help much? 10:39:23 Tevador, for dns checkpoints: 10:39:23 in the immediate time: 10:39:23 Going with 100% moneropulse, should we still use 7 domains? 10:39:23 Node checking every 5mins? more/less?[... more lines follow, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/r9K4irUKM0s3ZENp ] 10:39:45 PoP doesn't work against long reorgs. Only against selfish mining. 10:39:57 https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/10075 10:42:27 There should be at least 1 checkpoint per 10 blocks. A checkpoint every 5 minutes has a 99.99% chance of checkpointing at least once per 10 blocks, so it should be enough. 11:02:23 And how many checkpoints will be in rotation? 12, for 1 hour worth of checkpoints? Or more? 11:05:09 The node remembers old checkpoints its seen, but for bootstrapping nodes, i think we can probably do -5 to -15 (11 checkpoints)? 11:05:26 But to accommodate* bootstrapping nodes 11:10:37 A later checkpoint also commits to all previous blocks. 11:12:26 On testnet atm, were only using 1 checkpoint. Should we do the same on mainnet? 11:59:08 alright I have arisen from sleep\ 12:00:14 hope you are well rested 12:00:30 ofrnxmr / sech1 : rotating checkpoints is not great if they disappear as that also messes with the set-wise verification 12:00:49 tevador: I suggested having previous randomx seed height as well 12:00:51 They are remembered by the node (until it restarts) 12:01:07 note checkpoints added via DNS also trigger logic that other checkpoints set 12:01:13 including fast sync 12:02:26 Older checkpoints are only needed to speed up wallet restore iiuc 12:02:29 and as mentioned, TTL needs to be brought down for set-wise verification. If 1m is doable, that 12:02:44 1m looks possible on cloudflare 12:02:48 otherwise no higher than 2 minutes. 5 minutes is already two high, as that needs to account for two tiers 12:03:30 you can also define an external DNS server in cloudflare if we want to deploy that 12:03:46 And i assume it would make sense for pools and exchanges to use DNS_PUBLIC=tcp://1.1.1.1 for the fastest resolution, since its CF to CF 12:03:53 yeah. 12:03:54 If you guy are worry about domain confiscation why not use in on .onion addresses? so it could reference whatever onion address you want, without the domain registrations and stuff 12:04:06 onion has TXT 12:04:12 but node operators not all run onion 12:04:22 I have a small script to do TXT updates in one transaction for cloudflare, ofrnxmr 12:04:29 it's much cheaper than run monerod 12:04:33 using their batch api 12:04:50 lemme untangle it and publish it standalone 12:05:02 i'm waitong for response from binaryFate 12:05:03 we are a private coin, runnin a tor node, is not much difficult if we really care about privacy and stuff 12:05:05 TriggerCoder, not everyone can access Tor 12:05:23 it removes previous records + publishes new ones in one transaction, so all or nothing 12:05:47 Would like him to run this on testpoints asap so we can torture it for a couple hours first 12:05:50 however, ofrnxmr, did you verify that new checkpoints in your script are part of the previously checkpointed chain? By walking it manually? 12:06:25 DataHoarder: Rucknium's script. I dont have one 12:06:50 is it still the same script it was shared a few days ago? 12:07:03 I think it should probably confirm that the old checkpoints are in the current chain before creating a new checkpoint 12:07:06 DataHoarder: I believe so 12:07:39 so effectively all versions of grim trigger have triggered right? 12:07:51 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Because its possible for the checkpointing node to be forked off before commiting to the checkpoints 12:08:04 yeah. I will check what exists 12:08:53 If old check checkpoint exists in chain -> create new checkpoint, else do nothing and loop 12:10:08 Script can dig for current records, confirm that the block exists on the checkpointed node, then create and push new checkpoint. 12:12:15 syntheticbird: every major pool operator has access to TOR even mining through TOR enabled 12:14:47 3 double spends 👀 12:15:31 there is definitely someone losing his sunday in front of his PC... 12:15:40 @jack_ma_blabla:matrix.org: there will be 117 12:16:23 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: those which got invalidated ? 12:16:26 All of those 117 spends will eventually be re-spent, either in a week, or immediately if mined on a node that flushed the invalid txs 12:17:58 I asked supportxmr and moneroocean to flush their mempool 12:25:17 I have a script to update moneropulse dns records but not in one succeed-or-nothing transaction 12:30:40 I have tested it, now splitting it binaryFate 12:30:51 it's just a wrapper around their official SDK 12:32:40 DataHoarder: Yes, the logic isn't complicated, still. > is it still the same script it was shared a few days ago? 12:33:06 I'll try to replicate this as well on a script that queries monero too 12:33:24 given in the past few weeks I have implemented *THAT* a few dozen times :D 12:33:36 I have some code to be able to push blocks around P2P networks as well 12:33:43 in case we need to push alts 12:34:31 utility https://git.gammaspectra.live/P2Pool/monero-highway/src/branch/master/cmd/cloudflare-txt/main.go 12:35:47 usage $ CLOUDFLARE_API_TOKEN= go cmd/cloudflare-txt -zone-id -name test-checkpoints.gammaspectra.live -txt abcd1 -txt abcd2 12:36:13 get zone-id from Overview under the domain 12:36:18 -> API -> Zone ID 12:36:30 generate a TOKEN on https://dash.cloudflare.com/profile/api-tokens 12:36:39 "Edit zone DNS" template 12:36:45 give rights only to the specific domain 12:37:13 Permissions: Zone -> DNS -> Edit 12:37:27 Zone Resources: Include -> Specific zone -> gammaspectra.live (in my case) 12:37:53 it'll grab all TXT records on test-checkpoints.gammaspectra.live and replace them whenever it runs. 12:38:00 multiple -txt arguments can be passed 12:38:16 ttl can be specified via -ttl 1m or -ttl 120s etc. 12:38:37 you can statically compile the binary, ofc 12:39:19 cool thanks. I think I'm already good with token, I use a script to update hashes for every release 12:39:56 $ CGO_ENABLED=0 go build -trimpath -v -tags=purego,netgo -ldflags="-buildid= -bindnow -extldflags '-static'" -buildmode pie -o ./cloudflare-txt.bin ./cmd/cloudflare-txt 12:40:02 Note cloudlfare will currently limit TTL to 300s minimum 12:40:04