03:17:39 OK, I'll work on a new layout proposal and y'all better be nice to me 😅 It's very hard to find stuff right now, and this is under Press kit, and then the Guerilla Toolkit link doesn't work and Promotion stuff has only a few basic stickers. These are of course different websites 03:17:39 nitter.net/CryptoTweetie/status/1748906394592448914 03:17:51 Quote ^ 03:21:08 "This too. You click on Quick Facts Sheet....and this is the link (outreach) We may as well delete it. " 03:21:08 nitter.net/CryptoTweetie/status/1748907540375601168 03:56:12 <123bob123:matrix.org> replacing erc? 03:56:19 <123bob123:matrix.org> "drafted" 05:11:17 I assume its better if we grab the missing info from webarchive and rehost what we can 05:11:42 Monerooutreach linked stuff 05:12:27 (theres more info coming) 05:41:04 #blamescott 13:00:19 we should definitely link johnr365's timeline https://resilience365.com/monero-timeline/ 13:08:09 the actual file(s) it should point to : https://github.com/monero-ecosystem/outreach-docs/tree/master/monero-outreach-docs/en/quickfacts ofrnxmr 13:08:53 erc was ahead of his time, deleting the monerooutreach workgroup :D 13:22:10 He wanted to delete because workgroup was dead 13:22:33 Workgroup is dead because admins on matrix ate AWOL (can be fixed) 13:25:09 Plow - can you check matrix dms and upload hwre 13:25:11 Here 13:50:37 yes 13:51:24 im making 2 quick-fix prs for the monerooutreach issues on the press-kit. and an 'add johnr365timeline' one to appear under the "quick facts" link 13:51:38 +1 15:55:16 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/nSojwRpQLJZjmEPzoiaqJZsl 15:55:37 I would like to change the layout like this with the new video you guys commissioned, let me know your thoughts 15:55:57 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/yMCTADEARBUkhyvpSdmyhhkc 15:56:13 Also here are all the links to be removed from the site because they no longer work 15:57:34 Just want to organize stuff so it is more intuitive and easier to find. 16:21:49 https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/pull/2226 16:21:57 https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/pull/2227 16:22:24 https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/pull/2229 16:45:38 What is the purpose of this grey area? It is just empty, don't get it. 16:51:08 thanks csbr , i can look at the other issues/suggestions soon 16:51:42 thank you 🙏, you're a darling! 16:54:15 just trying to look busy after ofrnxmr told us what to do 16:54:30 No, we can add the choose wallet, get some coins part. You guys can decide on that, as long it is not too busy 16:56:30 Please don't take it wrong but I think it could be nicer. But I didn't follow anything on what you are working on. 16:56:58 Were building - you can add input 16:57:21 The following starts about 12hrs ago. You havent missed anything yet 👍👍 16:58:46 The layout is a proposal for UI / UX improvements to getmonero. I know youre a web dev, so feel free to add input and please do 16:59:27 I see. What are the issues with current website? 16:59:36 Aside from that, were cleaning up a bunch of broken or dead links, and adding/removing/updating listings and other info 17:01:04 For me the current website design is simple but clean and efficient. 17:01:34 Theres nothing technically wrong with the current website. If you prefer the current layout, you can say so 17:01:41 yes of course, I just put this together last night so I can illustrate it. No hard feelings, that's why I posted it here so we can discuss it, then I'll work on a final mockup and develop it. 17:01:44 Also can point out or fix issues with it 17:02:27 Well, in terms of design I would just leave it as it is 17:06:05 Re: website redesign. https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/pr8x6v/a_redesign_concept_for_wwwgetmoneroorg/ 17:06:19 Teddit: https://teddit.zaggy.nl/r/Monero/comments/pr8x6v/a_redesign_concept_for_wwwgetmoneroorg/ 17:06:34 LOVE THIS 17:06:36 YES 17:06:38 Figma file: https://www.figma.com/file/yT4JTUfvBkAsBDPNPJL1gx/Monero-Redesign-Concept?node-id=0%3A1 17:06:44 Something like this. More 2024 17:07:54 Read comments in reddit thread for feedback, further information... 17:09:16 Right ok, that Figma is cool indeed. The only thing I would add is a Light mode because I personally prefer to read content website in light mode. 17:09:52 The plan is to keep the same tech stack? 17:11:01 Perhaps. What did you have in mind? 17:11:33 The table is (almost) always open. Little things like working without js are important 17:12:40 If I was in charge I would just choose what I know the best, ReactJS/NextJS/ShadcnUI 17:12:59 We're all in charge 17:13:19 Ok but who is actually coding it? 17:13:29 You, id youd like to 17:13:47 It would be cool actually yes 17:14:12 Is the designer still around? 17:14:35 From reddit figma? 17:14:39 yes 17:14:42 Matter of sending a PM on reddit, me thinks. 17:15:10 Last comment appears to be a month ago, I'd say they're still active. Get them on Matrix and to join this room. 17:15:18 +1 17:16:02 It looks amazing!!!! 17:16:07 Super slick 17:16:17 also matches the video that was commissioned 17:17:23 this one https://yewtu.be/watch/?v=sRwSqM0YBto 17:17:42 If you want me to implement it I am in 17:18:12 Why not invite the original creator over too? 17:18:27 Do it! 17:18:34 Bear in mind JavaScript is a big no-go for XMR. As hinted in comments. 17:18:51 Bear in mind JavaScript is a big no-go for XMR. As hinted in reddit comments. 17:19:05 Please do. It would be helpful if I can collaborate actively with him 17:19:50 No JS! Ha?? But I am mainly a JS dev hehe 17:20:18 Even with NextJS server side rendering? 17:23:10 As I understand we want to avoid Single Page App, where the website is rendered client-side and need JS to run. But using JS to prerender server side should be ok. 17:23:12 I am SO HAPPY. Our website will AMAZING!!!! 17:25:20 So React with NextJS is ok. Just that I can't add any client-side animations 17:34:17 Selsta, what do you think 17:36:05 PS: I say "JS" but it would be Typescript obviously 17:37:28 what's the point of using server-side javascript? 17:43:48 ofrnxmr: do you mean what do I think of the proposed redesign? 17:44:22 Using NextJS Server-Side Rendering (SSR) is basically like the good old PHP websites. The HTML/CSS is created server-side and sent to the clients. 17:44:43 Specifically was about serverside js. But the design as well 17:44:52 we have a static website so we don't need server side rendering 17:45:04 or at least I don't know why we would need it 17:46:23 Right, I say SSR but it can be SSG also. https://nextjs.org/docs/pages/building-your-application/rendering/static-site-generation 17:46:59 The point is that clients don't need to have JS enabled 17:47:10 yes, we currently use a static site generator 17:47:21 so I'd prefer if we use that again, doesn't necessarily have to be jekyll 17:48:29 I propose NextJS/ReactJS. It's a popular JS stack, and that's what I know the best 17:50:16

saw this conversation pick up. heres a repo i made with ideas and justifications for website reorg, feel free to use what you like https://github.com/moneroguides/getmonero.org as it never went anywhere https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/issues/1900 17:54:01 Choose any technology for the website carefully. Things go deeper than you might expect. We don't want to put up high barriers for people who want to make a casual PR to fix something. Don't forget multi-linguality. Not only how to generate the language in different language, also how people could use dedicated translation supporting tools. 17:54:22 *generate the website 17:55:11 And it goes on. We want the Git history of the changes to look nice and expressive. 17:55:30 We don't want to update any overinstrumented whatever-framework once a month. 17:55:57 for example something like hugo supports multiple languages out of the box https://gohugo.io/content-management/multilingual/ 17:56:30 Good you mention multi-language. Imo, we have to use proper frontend libraires like ReactJS to have something we can maintain and profesional. 17:56:31 Writing HTML by hand without framework would be a pain, for zero gain. 17:57:25 *Profesional* is what most people who will contribute content are *not*. Just saying :) 17:58:41 Maybe they should not contribute then 17:58:45 Isn't ReactJS frontend, i.e. running JavaScript in the browser? 17:59:07 hugo would generate the HTML, we would not write it by hand obviously 17:59:31 That's what I explain just above. Using NextJS allow Static content rendering and Server side rendering 18:00:18 That answer somehow rubs me the wrong way, I am afraid. 18:02:21 Do we have people with zero xp contributing on Monero node? No, so why it should be different with website? 18:03:03 ReactJS is not an exotic framework, lot of people know it actually 18:03:31 yes, lots of people use it for building interactive web applications, not simple static websites like we need 18:03:45 for that something like jekyll / hugo etc is way better suited and simpler to get into 18:04:12 Can anyone please PM OP on reddit, invite him over to join the discussion? 18:04:23 ^^ 18:04:51 Uh, that was 2 years ago already 18:05:46 Frontend is easy yeah... 18:06:29

yes, we were all working on it and discussing it in the old room at the time 18:06:42 I see a pretty exemplary clash of cultures and ways of thinking here. I understand pretty well how some people look at our website and then e.g. at https://z.cash/ and they exclaim "My god, are we behind the curve." I say, yeah, so what? 18:06:44

that person might be contactable on matrix still 18:07:23

that person might be contactable on matrix still as well 18:07:44 Yeah, try doing this with Hugo or Jekyll... 18:07:47 moneroguides Do you know their matrix handle? Can you invite them over? 18:08:20

i'll look now, but i left the old room to join this one now, not sure if i can see view it 18:08:35

i'll look now, but i left the old room to join this one now, not sure if i can still view it 18:09:16 I guess that ReactJS has maybe, oh, a cool million lines of JavaScript, whereas some nice decent static website generator has 10,000 or so. I shudder thinking about such things. 18:09:43 And not to forget the 1,000 dependencies ReactJS will draw in. 18:09:53

i cant see it :( 18:10:50 You don't know what you are talking about. You are talking about React SPA. I am talking about React+NextJS to produce static site. 18:13:27 Well, that's why open source websites sucks all the time... 18:14:01 Not sure what you refer to here. 18:15:38 Most open source projects. No examples in mind. People can be very good in backend dev but when it comes to frontend they are scrared to use proper tools 18:18:32 Well, where does the current Monero website stand, in your opinion? 18:20:23 It's clean, it does the job. Could be more sexy. I guess it's important to appeal to new users that are used to nice interfaces (Check all the web3 chain websites Solana etc). 18:20:55 Those people never used IRC if you see what I mean 18:29:10 > I guess it's important to appeal to new users that are used to nice interfaces 18:29:21 I am crazy enough to dispute that up to some point. 18:34:10 Hmm. Just checked. next.js has only roughly 100,000 LOC. Downright slim for today's standards. But it does need NodeJS. 18:34:28 (The Monero core software has 700,000.) 18:38:16 How do you plan to host it? 18:39:58 With Vercel you can host it on CDNs all over the world. Super fast. But I suppose we don't want to use professional hosting service for some reasons ^^ 18:42:22 I don't know the details, but I dimmly remember very special measures e.g. to be available behind the Great Firewall as well. And the sever with the downloads is the holy center of the Monero universe, guarded Fort Knox style. Don't want to be overly dramatic, but we are securing a multi-billion USD dollar venture here. 18:43:55 Yes but I would argue that we are talking about a website. If it is shutdown for some reason we can still deploy it somewhere else. Regarding China I don't know 18:45:00 Well, if that website links to the wrong download page, it's already kind of game over ... 18:45:52 That's a good point. Vercel servers can be hacked, like any servers 18:47:02 Yeah, the current Monero website is certainly not sexy, but it and the server behind have a damned small attack surface 18:52:34 See NextJS is mentionned here https://jamstack.org/generators/ 18:54:46 <123bob123:matrix.org> Hugo has jekyll converter, but you need to move the static files to a different file name 18:55:16 <123bob123:matrix.org> And would have to convert the theme also ….. 18:56:38 <123bob123:matrix.org> https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/zeTXPtOonLyYyHNDKAFJEKvH 18:56:50 <123bob123:matrix.org> I played with it 18:57:08 <123bob123:matrix.org> But search bar and filetree collapse needs js to work 18:57:32 We are talking about doing a new website from scratch 18:58:13 <123bob123:matrix.org> Oh 18:58:26 <123bob123:matrix.org> Gl 🚀 18:59:06 <123bob123:matrix.org> Monero website working group, fluffy missed that one 18:59:41 One more of those imaginary workgroups then :) 19:03:04 A lot is won already if this discussion today leads to some insight that a new website for Monero is a *big* project, with many many angles and things to consider. Not a sprint, but kind of a marathon until everything is ready to go online. And deciding the tech stack is of course an important one, but only one piece of a large puzzle. 19:03:53 <123bob123:matrix.org> Can i just say takes 1 yr for a page pr, imagine website….. 19:04:01 <123bob123:matrix.org> Soon™️ 19:04:35 Yeah, just coming back from finally getting the new paper wallet generator up here, after months: https://www.getmonero.org/resources/user-guides/securely_purchase.html 19:05:13 (My part was just a bit of shouting ...) 19:07:45 The blocker is the ech stack. I am quite fast at coding. This is a classic debate I often have. Different people have different preferences. Now the new hottest framework is HTMX. Backend people love it because it is based on templates (like Hugo etc). It's totally valid. But I do frontend for 10 years. For me using Markdown and templates is just ugly and annoying. But I understan 19:07:45 d why some people like it. 19:07:55 The blocker is the tech stack. I am quite fast at coding. This is a classic debate I often have. Different people have different preferences. Now the new hottest framework is HTMX. Backend people love it because it is based on templates (like Hugo etc). It's totally valid. But I do frontend for 10 years. For me using Markdown and templates is just ugly and annoying. But I understa 19:07:55 nd why some people like it. 19:08:10 <123bob123:matrix.org> Ofrn alt 19:09:04 <123bob123:matrix.org> They’ll just want no js here 19:09:52 <123bob123:matrix.org> But slow moving parts here 19:10:06 <123bob123:matrix.org> Like docs.getmonero.org ! 19:10:29 Nobody has PM'd OP on reddit, right? :) 19:10:34 <123bob123:matrix.org> Waiting on repo to be made 19:10:42 nope 19:12:25 I can start making the home page, you see how the code looks like. If the community like it good, otherwise we throw it. 19:12:46 > Now the new hottest framework is HTMX. 19:12:58 A week without a new framework is a week wasted. 19:13:37 I don't ask anything anyway 19:15:32 <123bob123:matrix.org> I wouldn’t waste to much time. 19:15:59 <123bob123:matrix.org> Also needs the same workflow as current one in-regards to getting updated. 19:16:25 what do you mean? 19:18:31 <123bob123:matrix.org> How getmonero gets prs on github 19:19:14 <123bob123:matrix.org> I think they use netlify with github actions to preview? 19:21:28 But that would come after. What I propose is that I would implement the current Figma design alone. Would be on my Github first. A proper review workflow will be needed once it is live. 19:23:55 By the way, regarding Figma design, it is only desktop. Would be great to have mobile too. But not mandatory, can improvise. 19:24:29 <123bob123:matrix.org> Can always try 19:25:00 <123bob123:matrix.org> Just monero is slow at making decisions 19:25:39 It's normal. That's why I think I have to make a PoC first 19:30:35 To start I would just need to have translation files in this format https://docs.weblate.org/en/latest/formats/i18next.html 19:32:22 We can't detect the client language without client-side JS tho 19:45:46 <123bob123:matrix.org> The 90s people cant see threads i think ? 19:48:49 Ha but the text content has changed anyway... 19:49:12 MoneroLogs picks it up, but you get confused when reading: https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-site/20240121 19:53:03 I think never mind decision taking slowness and quite a bit of conservative mindset around here, you can really see the Monero website as something different. Not a high gloss corporate style website with a halflife of 3 years or so, but something like an open source / community project where people don't want their contributions go waste already 3 years down the line. 19:55:53 I totally understand but imo I didn't get valid critics. React has been first released in 2013, and will still be around for a while 19:58:02 I am not sure you totally understand. Could be that we are solidly talking past each other right now. 19:59:34 We will probably want a new website, more modern in a few years also ^^ 19:59:48 That's life 20:00:29 You mean a new website *again*, after the one you may spearhead to build now? 20:00:38 yes 20:00:58 In 5 years we want 3D and AI lol 20:01:02 joking 20:01:33 But not totally joking. A website doesn't last long in general, it evolves 20:01:40 Unlike a company in fiercy competition for eyeballs and market share, we the Monero company can decide to have life that is a bit different. 20:01:56 haha. *we the Monero community 20:02:22 I was waiting anyway for somebody wanting to have AI :) 20:03:05 Would be cool to have a LLM specialized in Monero but that's an other topic 20:03:35 Well, it depends. Look at Wikipedia as something like a counter-example to this "Constant change? It's life." 20:05:17 Many people nowadays have so taken it that constant change mantra that they are shocked when they meet somebody that seriously questions that as something like a universal. 20:06:38 Unlike companies, monero does not try to re-invent itself every few years, because our vision is clear and consistent. I think this should reflect in our website in terms of gradual improvement rather then radical redesign. 20:07:53 This does not mean that I don't welcome your suggestions to touch up the website 20:08:21 The content will change, not the same wallets, links are dead, tech is evolving... 20:08:52 "gradual improvement" 20:09:09 or rather incremental improvement 20:12:05 Anyway, I don't think this is where we should focus the debate. I would be curious to know how many different people have contributed to the current Jekyll website. I would argue it is not that easy to modify the templates without breaking stuff. You need a minimum of knowledge. Is the entry bar much higher if using React. I don't think so. 20:13:03 Maybe I am biaised 20:17:05 That's hard to say, yeah. The *master* branch of the website amassed over 4000 commits over times: https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site 20:18:18 Ideally, you could offer an alternative workflow for everthing that is described in that ReadMe 20:18:33 Or are most contributions about content? In React, content would be json files. Maybe markdown files in Jekyll are better organized. It's not clear to me tbh 20:20:21 A requirement to submit content as JSON sounds a bit strange to me at first hearing 20:20:58 I didn't thought about porting all the existing content in current website... I just thought about the proposed Figma. If we have to add a bunch a markdown content, it's doable but we have to think about it 20:21:34 I agree Markdown is better for content 20:25:23 <123bob123:matrix.org> Yolo it 20:29:47 Actually, I suppose there is a lot more content than what is presented in Figma. Meeting logs for example. 20:29:47 If it was a normal company I would say let's use a headless CMS to manage content, and a static site generator like Gatsby so I can still use React instead templating 20:31:24 But we can't do that :( 20:44:17 yes we should review everything content-wise as well. I only checked the links yesterday, but we should update everything, add/remove stuff based on how fresh/up-to-date it is. Also planning to work on the FAQ - some of Seth's blogs for example. 20:47:42 Moving away from Markdown seems too risky and a big pain... We are stuck with Jekyll or Hugo :( 20:50:53 Probably others but I don't know them all. 20:55:42 OK - well let's modify the Figma too include all content 21:03:12 If we had a good process for contributors, we would have a lot more contributors, and that would be wonderful. 21:18:59 I invite you to read this https://ghostinspector.com/blog/rebuilding-jekyll-website-next-js-theme-ui/ 21:19:00 Can you please bring him / her around? 21:25:19 We could use NextJS with content converted from Markdown to MDX (https://mdxjs.com). Should be easy to convert, and easy for anyone to submit content change. 21:27:19