06:51:54 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Will have a look at Astro later today.
06:54:51 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> I remembered a detail not yet mentioned: With the system as it is today you can get immediate feedback on GitHub itself for a website PR in the form of a preview how the website will look with the PR applied. No idea how this works on a technical level. It's certainly nice for submitters, and especially for reviewers who can take a quick and uncomplicated look.
07:08:47 <plowsof> We use netifly for that preview feature rbrunner, its great
07:10:10 <plowsof> I dont even know the correct name of it if you are wondering about my technical knowledge.. netlify* :)
07:30:13 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> I know that well as a dev: If you have a solution for something that works well and works well for years, it's very easy to forget all its features because you take them for granted at this point, and you don't remember them right away if you want to compete with it with a brand-new solution. Can be quite slippery and often leads to underestimating the effort needed for the new solution.
07:31:11 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> As a boomer I can't help myself and have to link to this classic once again on this occasion: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/
08:27:05 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> github action?
10:52:45 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Almost certainly, I would speculate. I just don't have any knowledge about the capabilities of those actions. Can you ask them to install a monster like NodeJS? Maybe, maybe not.
11:35:04 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> PR previews can be deployed on GitHub pages https://github.com/marketplace/actions/deploy-pr-preview
15:13:46 <plowsof> is basicswapdex opensource? 
19:10:25 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> I had a quick look at Astro, just to get a first impression. Doesn't look to bad IMHO. In a sense it's typical of today's tools, throw everything in and to hell with complexity and size. But my gut feeling right now says that if we choose carefully exactly which feature sub-set we use for the Monero website, and how we use it, that tool might fly.
19:16:35 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Thing is most of them a java based
19:16:54 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> are*
19:17:09 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> https://jamstack.org/generators/
19:37:09 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> One important question about Astro though: What is the absolute minimum of software that must run on the production server that dishes out HTML to actual visitors?
19:37:32 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> A) Full Node.js plus full Astro on top
19:37:49 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> B) some trimmed down "runtime" with only parts of those two
19:38:13 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> C) nothing at all, because you can fully pre-render everything to HTML files and only put those on the production server
19:39:15 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> If only A) is possible that would make me pretty nervious because of security considerations, I must confess
19:41:19 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> You can serve only HTML, it's zero-JS by default, then you can do "progressive enhancement". 
19:41:19 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> We can probably build locally and the server only have to serve.
19:41:37 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> You can serve only HTML, it's zero-JS by default, then you can do "progressive enhancement". 
19:41:37 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> We can build locally and the server only have to serve.
19:43:30 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> So you speculate that C) might be possible? With no JavaScript interpreter needing to run on the webserver, because even a stupid Apache can of course serve pure HTML files that lie around in some folders?
19:44:27 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> Yes, I strongly speculate that, even tho I didn't try myself yet. This is what I understood from my research.
19:46:34 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> That would be attractive. I wonder however somewhat how you do multilanguage in such a scenario, and how the URLs will look.
19:46:39 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> It's true static site generation. With NextJS for example I think you can do it, but it's more ambiguous, even when they talk about SSG it's not true SSG. With Astro it is.
19:47:30 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> SSG meaning "server-side generation", right?
19:47:44 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> Static Site Generation
19:47:54 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Ah, ok :)
19:49:34 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> How would the website switch between languages in such an absolutely-no-JavaScript-running-on-server scenario?
19:49:35 <selsta> https://docs.astro.build/en/guides/internationalization/
19:50:09 <selsta> I'd prefer if we just select the language in a dropdown like our current website
19:50:31 <selsta> I hate it when websites serve things in a different language based on my IP or some JS browser setting
19:50:58 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Yeah, I strongly suspect that as soon as you read the word "routing" somewhere that's something that only Astro itself running on the server could do
19:51:09 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> We can't do otherwise without client-side JS anyway i think
19:52:02 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> That's a still unclear point then, seems to me.
19:53:00 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> Maybe for you hehe
19:53:27 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> The philosophy of Astro is really the same as Jekyll
19:53:43 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> It is made for Markdown content
19:54:11 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> The only difference is how we create UI
19:55:32 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Well, not sure it's only my own problem. If I say absolutely no JavaScript anywhere tolerated, for security reasons, not in the Browser, nor on the server, is the problem still solvable?
19:56:02 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> I told you yes, we build locally
19:56:33 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Does an English page and the corresponding German page have different URLs then?
19:56:34 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> The server pull from the repo and serve
19:57:48 <selsta> "Does an English page and the corresponding German page have different URLs then?" <-- yes
19:57:55 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> I guess so
19:58:14 <selsta> it would work like our current getmonero.org website
19:58:40 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> You can't even put the language in cookie without client-side js
19:58:40 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Ah, yes, I see now. The German page does have a different URL.
19:59:09 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> I wasn't sure, but obviously this does not cause problems somewhere.
19:59:27 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> I mean, UI and UX problems for people who browse the website
19:59:29 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> So URL can be used to keep all kind of state
19:59:48 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> That's the only the state management we have
20:00:51 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> It's even better because you can share the exact page you want to share
20:01:19 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Well, don't ask me the details, but languages work on getmonero.org in the Tor browser on the highest possible browsing security level.
20:01:43 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> It's in the URL no?
20:01:49 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> No magic here
20:01:56 <selsta> Astro would work the same
20:02:29 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> I just saw, yes. The right URLs are already in the dropdown. No magic needed.
20:03:09 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> It's just links there in the "dropdown". I think I searched too far :)
20:04:05 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Ok, you convinced me that we have a tool that merits a closer look as a candidate.
20:04:24 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Website meeting when?
20:04:42 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> And Astro is 38k stars on Github, it's the most popular true SSG
20:05:12 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Yeah, and it has a very impressive number of contributors. Looks like true open source at first glance.
20:05:31 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Also reminds me of astro boy
20:05:33 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> Yes
20:06:27 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> NextJS looks downright "corporaty" in comparison, with their "enterprise offer" linked right from the frontpage
20:07:29 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> For sure, it is made by Vercel, you can super easily deploy there. Convinient but yeah more corporate
20:08:27 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> I think "true" open source gives good vibes with the Monero community
20:10:25 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> Something we didn't say is that, we can have a Astro website that works totally fine without JS, but also have JS for UI enhancement. It's not mandatory at all, I personally don't see why it would be a problem but just saying it's the whole progressive enhancement philosohy
20:11:02 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> We can have best of both worlds
20:12:46 <selsta> I'd prefer no JS at all so that Tor and normal website are identical
20:13:01 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Why not. Some nice animation how rings work in Monero for people bold enough to leave JavaScript on in their browser where people coming in over Tor without JavaScript get some static picture.
20:13:46 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> We can decide on that later
20:13:54 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> We can also run miners in browser too when you visit
20:14:04 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Lol
20:14:12 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> Reckless
20:14:31 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Maybe proof of concept with docs website
20:14:57 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> Is the doc website live now?
20:15:04 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Nope
20:15:13 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Soon™️
20:15:17 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> Is it based on Jekyll?
20:15:28 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> There isnt one
20:15:30 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> Is it a new thing ?
20:15:32 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> Ha ok
20:16:04 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Say again, where would those "docs" come from? Does something exist already in some form? I am a bit out out the loop here
20:16:14 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> Well for docs I have an other tool in mind haha
20:16:21 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Ment to be making an equivalent to monerodocs.org
20:16:58 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> https://github.com/monerodocs/md
20:17:21 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Mdbooks but its rust so plowsof no likey
20:17:37 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> lol
20:18:13 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Plowsof will use wd40 on it or no rust
20:18:13 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> I like Antora for doc. It is based on AsciiDoc, similar to Markdown but better. Fully SSG also
20:18:36 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> I used it already
20:18:57 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> moneroguides proposal was to keep the same setup / look / feel but adjust the 'available paths' a user can be taken to from each page IIRC
20:18:58 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> I can share what I made in private. Scared to dox myself here :/
20:19:45 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> alternative monero-site implementation in rust
20:21:58 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Issue 
20:21:58 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> 1. Mkdoc search is js
20:22:11 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/issues/2140 is hugo bad?
20:22:39 <selsta> no, hugo is also good
20:22:40 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Luigi buffon needs to repo
20:23:20 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> I know mdbook is markdown and rust
20:23:25 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Feels like mkdocs
20:23:40 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> https://antora.org/ is the best
20:24:12 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> Research AsciiDoc if you don't know. Very similar to Markdown but you can do much more
20:24:39 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> Add LaTeX, footnotes, all kind of things
20:26:31 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> The most important thing about our docs is getting people to write them in the first place, and then even getting some other people to modify to keep them current. Compared with that *massive* problem every technical problem looks like peanuts ...
20:27:26 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> And I am pretty sure that if we have some nice site generator it will be able to generate what we would need for docs without breaking a sweat
20:27:58 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Meeting when ?
20:28:09 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Getmonero
20:28:09 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Docs
20:28:18 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Can somebody ban this obnoxious Dan person already?
20:28:21 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> :)
20:28:28 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Meeting adjourned
20:28:29 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> This tool has been made for technical doc, is much better than Hugo or whatever for that purpose
20:29:03 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Yes, I understand, but I think it is probably overkill for our use case. Write that damned doc already in some simple Markdown, game is won.
20:30:58 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> The problem is not missing footnote capability for docs, problem is almost nobody feels like writing docs :)
20:31:58 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> I don't want to have this debate again haha. But please have a look
20:32:58 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Unban ofrn and he will
20:32:59 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Need repo first
20:34:30 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> I let you all look a bit more into Astro and we take a decision?
20:34:53 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> https://github.com/monerodocs/md/tree/master/docs
20:34:59 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> There are plenty of Youtube videos, articles..
20:36:08 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Google uses it
20:36:20 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Winrar
20:36:25 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> For policies
20:36:31 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> Astro?
20:37:03 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Yeah
20:37:10 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Saw on the website
20:37:31 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> If Google uses it then..
20:37:35 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> ^^
20:49:18 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> I think the prerequisite are
20:49:18 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> 1. No js
20:49:18 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> 2. Looks pretty
20:49:19 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> 3. Multi language
20:50:34 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Cause if they are using github action it will use a shared runner, so an app without js is ideal
20:50:48 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Unless core self host a runner
20:52:32 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> You are saying that the GH Action server could be hacked? That would only be used for Preview eventually, not the final build
20:56:34 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Its a shared resource on github
20:57:07 <m-relay> <c​hch3003:monero.social> Ok but it doesn't matter
20:58:03 <selsta> we currently use netlify for previews
23:11:14 <ofrnxmr> Lol, 3hrs ago i was pinged. Seriously, unban plowsof
23:11:24 <ofrnxmr> 135msgs missed is too many
23:15:40 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Nva