15:38:53 Do we plan on holding the meeting today? 16:29:06 Yep! 16:29:17 In an hour and a half. 16:32:30 No meta issue, no reddit, matrix call besides just this? 16:32:59 ah, it'd seem so. I'm a bit rusty. Sorry. 16:33:14 I'll send something in the other Matrix/IRC channels 16:34:23 Sent in #monero, #monero-community, and #monero-community-dev:monero.social 16:34:30 Bit rushes imo, but .shrug. Fine for an informal, impromptu setup meeting, I guess. Don't expect a big turnout though. 16:34:42 rottenwheel: mind copy/pasting into -pools or wherever else you think it needs to go? 16:35:12 monerobull post on monero town? 16:35:12 Nobody will know and whoever catches it one hour prior might or might not make it. 16:35:15 Bit rushed imo, but .shrug. Fine for an informal, impromptu setup meeting, I guess. Don't expect a big turnout though. 16:36:04 Diego Salazar I think the most essential one place to do it is opening the issue in meta with location, date, time, agenda items, like all other meetings do... 16:36:11 Can I be blunt? Design by committee sucks and having a smaller people composed mostly of IRC people and those who knew of the meeting prior because they watch this channel is fine by me 16:36:18 No meta, no meeting 16:36:25 plowsof is an expert in this matter 16:36:26 Days or weeks in advance, of course. 16:36:49 And meeting for what? To decide if we reopen the ccs? 16:36:57 That takes 26 seconds 16:37:08 spirobel: 16:37:40 Design by committee = merge the ccs 16:38:02 he can contact diego and bull on how it usually goes 16:38:06 I thought we already decided over plenty of meetings to build the website and decide later 16:38:49 but then the ccs was closed, claiming that site didnt have a workgroup (as if the workgroup has anything to do with the ccs) 16:39:12 Well, the beginnings of a workgroup are budding now that mb and I have been funded for it. 16:39:21 Rotten, hardened, plowsof, and others have been actively running this workgroup for a long time 16:39:22 This meeting is a starting point for that. 16:40:31 already have a question about the new website, does this meeting require certain participants to join or they can discuss later/never? 16:40:48 like janka is probably VIP in this meeting 16:40:58 The latter 16:41:15 Meeting is just extra red tape for no reason. We got more work done before we had to wait 2 weeks for a decision 16:41:17 And we'd get more work done if luigi1111 gave plowsof merge power 16:41:18 Funded at a higher combined rate than the ccs to build the website. Make it make sense, amirite? 16:42:13 - Merge the "new website" ccs 16:42:14 - give plowsof merge power on site 16:42:16 = omg we have productivity 16:42:43 Instead we spent 2 months waiting for luigi to merge a list, and closes the ccs 16:42:45 As far as I know plowsof getting merge powers isn't on the table? 16:42:51 I could be wrong though. 16:42:54 So that we can pay 2hrs of labor for a meeting 16:43:06 It should have been a common sense solution 16:43:18 Ah, we are having a meta-meeting. People discuss the pros and cons of having a meeting. Cool. 16:43:34 Plowsof works 2x as hard because he doesnt have power to merge and has to micromanage merge conflicts 16:44:06 :D 16:44:08 Midipoet wanted to run meta meetings 🫠. This feels exactly the same 16:45:01 This also discourages contributors bcuz we all have to keep fixing merge conflicts / avoid editing the same file for a different fix 16:45:07 Like the rpc documentation 16:45:45 This upcoming meeting is mostly going to be covering new site stuff. 16:45:59 chch3003 16:46:08 why? There was months of discussion already 16:46:28 Merge the ccs, build alt website, figure the rest out once the ccs is complete 16:46:34 Well then one more little discussion shouldn't hurt anything. 16:46:48 Its literallt costs $ 16:47:02 Why would we have meetings just to burn money and time 16:47:26 A lot of contributors are unpaid. We already have hours of meetings dedicated each week 16:48:32 ^ 16:48:53 Biggest detractors were probably spirobel and maybe plowsof 16:49:52 Spirobel hasnt responded, so whats the point of having a nod session if spirobel doesnt attend 16:49:54 the argument was that luigi wants there to be a workgroup. There is one, its just inefficient because none of us have merge power 16:51:43 Well, regardless, I'll be running a meet in about an hour. 16:52:19 Diego Salazar president meetup! 16:54:47 > Merge the ccs, build alt website, figure the rest out once the ccs is complete 16:54:49 Which CCS is this? 16:55:07 *New Monero Website* from janaka 16:57:04 Ah, yes: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/450 16:57:22 Did not find it first because it's closed, of course. 16:58:00 yep 16:58:08 "Closing in favor of constructing a functioning website workgroup. (it could be reopened/modified given output of said group)" 16:58:41 I dont want to go to 'darkmode without javascript / css checkbox' school 16:58:48 "the argument was that luigi wants there to be a workgroup. There is one, its just inefficient because none of us have merge power" 16:59:25 Alright. Diego Salazar , take over for some compromise finding, seems to me the parties are still quite wide apart :) 16:59:49 That's my specialty. ;) 17:00:35 there are toggles that doesn't needs JS 17:01:18 The website ccs being merged != were going to deploy it on getmonero ASAP 17:02:36 hopefully stuff goes smooth and we see some progress and productivity 17:02:56 and unf*ck monero curse 17:03:05 More important than merging etc, is stuff like spirobels comments about the viability of completing it adequately, of if we actually need a whole new website to complete the visual changes 17:04:45 We are already discussing jekyll > hugo. The discussion should be Hugo vs astro or whatever. And politicians can vote all they want, the main q is always "who" is going to do the work 17:08:08 In my experience, with the weekly MRL meetings and the "No wallet left behind" meetings, they are mostly useful - if done regularly, so that people can count on them, easily remember the day and time, etc. Meetings don't have to be a waste of time. 17:08:10 When removal of mymonero and edge wallet ? 17:08:16 wen 17:08:25 Yah when 17:08:26 . 17:08:50 If you need to bribe to remove, we need to fork off getmonero 17:09:15 yeah nope 17:09:17 We'll have a meeting in 6 weeks to discuss that 17:09:34 monero.cat when? 17:09:36 will leave this question to the MEETING 17:09:38 6 weeks lol 17:09:40 No pr's and no reviews unless we have meeting first. 17:10:59 Edge wallet should be removed, probably. They have trackers etc. 17:11:00 Idk whats up with mymonero mobile wallet, but a handful of people have been complaining that it doesnt work (had to switch to desktop) 17:12:24 Well? This weeks meeting doesn't have an agenda or a meta post. So can you really call it a meeting if monero.observer and revuo didnt know about it? 17:12:41 Tress falling in forest with nobody around etc etc 17:13:00 No more participation from ofrnxmr until we declare this a meeting free zone :) 17:15:00 "I was there when we successfully sabotaged Diego's un-properly announced so-called <>." Sigh. 17:16:20 but diego said every moment with us was a meeting 17:16:48 God does it feel like it. 17:17:36 about 40 mins 17:18:33 I can't wait 17:18:46 im joking i can only wait 17:21:40 Isnt it mb's meeting 🤔 17:22:15 He and I can do rock paper scissors. 17:29:30 Rock paper scissors implementation on the blockchain with perdersan commitment 17:30:00 a compressed edward point is 256 bit and we allow 1080 bit in tx_extra 17:30:03 this theorically possible 17:30:19 We'll need to have a meeting to implement this. 17:34:15 hi 17:34:52 Hi, welcome to #monero-rock-paper-scissors. First meeting in one week 17:40:24 I've just spent 5 minutes catching up on people complaining about how nobody knew of a meeting. Seems like there are enough people here. 17:42:27 If you too will particiapte to the meeting react by saying in chat: *monero W* 17:42:35 *monero W* 17:46:30 lol 17:46:40 that is spammy 17:46:46 i hate you 17:47:03 jk 17:47:04 I love you too 17:53:39 👋 17:54:12 5 min guys. 17:54:16 Guys be excited. 17:54:22 It's almost meeting time guys. 18:00:12 Alrighty. We're at the hour. 18:00:45 No agenda was posted for this so nothing to easily copy/paste. But let's start in the usual way. Who's here? Ready to engage? 18:01:10 Hello guys, janaka here 18:01:17 Hello everyone. 18:01:19 Hello 18:01:21 Hi, ready to give my opinion 18:01:24 Hello. 18:01:38 I'll set up an agenda issue for the next meeting 18:02:14 hello 18:02:34 I'm lurking 18:02:47 I'm hoping to keep this pretty practical. As many have said, some of these topics have been discussed again and again for months. 18:03:12 I may be asking a couple of similar questions, be patient. I just want to get a few things on record for myself. 18:03:27 I promise I'm hoping to move us forward by a pretty big leap today. 18:03:44 It won't all be for naught. :P 18:04:17 So first question. New site. Yes or no? Is it needed? If so, why? If not, why not? 18:04:35 This won't be a long or exhaustive portion. We've heard a lot on this already. 18:04:51 Just kind of a "last chance" to have your opinion heard here. 18:04:54 Yes, for revamping design, improving ux, psychologically motivating all the other workgroup 18:05:24 Yes, the current website design feels very old and the actual source code for the website is very confusing making it very hard to contribute. No dark theme 18:05:38 All the above, and taking this opportunity to also rework the content. 18:06:02 at the very least it could have some updates on it, like the roadmap stuck in 2023 18:06:04 Yes. People are hardly writing new content anymore. We have to get contributions flowing again, the website must be a living thing. Like the Monero project as a whole. 18:06:08 IMO: Only if it is a full, thought-out rework with focus on information density and readability. Otherwise we can just add dark mode to the existing site and put more modern graphics on it 18:06:42 I agree on the thought out rework. A penpot instance would be appreciated 18:07:17 nah, it will end up like Weblate instance 18:07:47 I disagree, its not even related. 18:07:59 hello 18:08:00 that's another problem for another meething, unless you guys want to discuss the need for a sysadmin to maintain Weblate and monero infra 18:08:00 It seems the group here is largely leaning toward yes, although there are a couple of asterisks. 18:08:13 Helllooo 18:08:14 Despite the asterisks, it seems pretty positive toward yes. 18:08:25 Hey plowsof. New website, yes or no? 18:08:59 The only thing I have to add to this discussion is what I've said before. I made the current general design, and I've always not been thrilled with it. 18:09:03 I think the design of the new website should also fit the theme of the videos made by vostoemisio which I think the current figma concept design fits pretty well? SyntheticBird 18:09:28 Back in the day the community really wanted to retain an amateurish feel so as to show were not "hype based" like the other cryptos. 18:09:51 What I ended up with was a good compromise, but I felt very hamstrung and felt it could be much better. 18:09:57 you seem to have taken a thorough look at janka work 18:10:37 I'm sorry I haven't looked at vostoemisio or Diego Salazar work. Any links ? 18:10:42 The "hype train" of cryptos I think has largely passed. And having one less amateurish in feel I think is the way to go. It's about time. 18:10:44 I would oppose some "corporate type" high gloss look, but I don't think it must lean towards "amateurish" to avoid that 18:10:47 So I am also for yes. 18:11:00 plowsof can you link vids by them? 18:11:09 vosto will be adding light/dark theme videos to his next ccs* sure 18:11:13 in the new monero website i'd try to direct it towards monero adoption for businesses a bit too, saying it's an actual business opportunity and such 18:11:25 I agree rbrunner7. But there's a lot of fertile ground in between corporate and professional. 18:11:43 Yeah, for fcmp and introductory video there will be 2 versions 18:11:47 number 6 and 7 https://www.getmonero.org/get-started/faq/#videos 18:12:30 epic vids 18:12:47 There are a couple of things that were required that will carry over: 18:12:48 1. No javascript. 18:12:50 2. Should be relatively easy to contribute to. (Not by anyone and everyone, but by people with the skill set) 18:13:09 would a redesign be a facelift or back end change from scratch) 18:13:17 I had made a comprehensive block system for the current site that can be used. And people did indeed make new pages with it. 18:13:25 Plowsof, that's the next question. 18:13:33 Its not anymore. Its just not deployed 18:13:34 https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/pull/2310 18:13:40 So for now just think of the question as "redesign of UI and IA" 18:15:25 Regardless, I think things are undeniably in the affirmative. 18:15:50 We have a ccs proposal for a redesogn 18:15:50 Here is the Figma I used https://www.figma.com/design/yT4JTUfvBkAsBDPNPJL1gx/Monero-Redesign-Concept?node-id=0-1&t=EVUALdaExON6nIQI-0 18:15:52 It can be forked and improved over 18:15:56 Meaning we won't have this conversation again. ;) 18:15:59 im not convinced on needing a back end from scratch yet, but see the benefits of UI/IA improvements 18:16:32 And if people complain we can say the Website Workgroup has all agreed in this direction. 18:16:34 https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/450 18:17:05 ofrnxmr yes this is janaka CCS but afaik chch3003 also requested the help of a designer 18:17:08 2nd order of business. Backend. Another thing discussed a lot so we'll keep it short. 18:17:18 Actually, this made remeber about the stance Tor took to promote it self away from "bad" people. https://support.torproject.org/#misc_misc-14 18:17:20 >We're looking for more good examples of Tor users and Tor use cases. If you use Tor for a scenario or purpose not yet described on that page, and you're comfortable sharing it with us, we'd love to hear from you. 18:17:22 >and their FAQ about abuse https://support.torproject.org/abuse/ 18:17:24 We have seen some bad PR directed at Monero recently, this might help? 18:17:36 The one thing that is an order of practicality when discussing Jekyll, Hugo, and Astro is who will be doing the work and who will be maintaining? 18:17:52 As far as I see, we have a person ready and awaiting funding to do things in Astro. 18:18:02 Yes indeed, if we reopen the CCS I will need some help from a designer 18:18:11 I can give this help. 18:18:21 I could contribute since I know astro (cuprate site written in Astro at https://cuprate.or) 18:18:28 dictionary: maintainer around here just means person merging 18:18:28 Doing the work = coordinating and contributing 18:18:32 Do we have anyone ready and waiting for money to do things in Hugo? 18:18:59 fix link 18:19:09 https://cuprate.org my bad 18:19:27 not that im aware of. rottenwheel is raising money to fund a team of devs to convert jekyll->hugo , dont know what team he plans on using 18:19:33