03:07:39

I don't have a mobile phone, I refuse to use one, just a desktop computer running windows 10 12:35:16 why don't you use a mobile phone? mobile phones are the best things in the world 12:35:40 and why do you use windows 10? you should use GNU/Linux distros or freebsd/openbsd instead because it is better. 12:41:40 Any of those have good accessibility? 12:43:26 Bro spawn in the channel and instantly say to a blind person he never talked to either buy a phone or install OpenBSD (a fucking server distribution). Are you drunk? 12:43:58 No 12:44:04 He's a spammer 12:44:17 oh alright 12:44:21 muted 12:44:25 OpenBSD is a server distro but it is good for desktop use too. And how do you know he is not using his computer as a server to host something or smth like that? 12:44:41 phones are better than computers 12:44:43 Say to a blind person thats not in the chat anymore 12:44:46 phones are like 10x better than computers 12:45:56 phones are so good 12:46:02 i like using mobile phones 16:05:44 02:32 Regarding design, I think this is the best decision today, because it has become clear that this group can't take any decision, is unable to be productive, so let's stick with current design for now. And we can iterate carefully, slowly, on 16:06:28 ^ the community prefers the current design, it has nothing to do with this workgroup 16:07:44 and we’re still waiting to hear the benefits of changing the backend 16:14:10 aside from ensuring full employment of course 16:17:04 https://nymtech.net/ wow looks slick 16:17:13 even got monero theme 16:17:20 Diego Salazar 16:18:03 we're still waiting? 16:19:09 I literally answered this question and gave reasons. 16:19:25 unless I’ve missed your github comment? 16:19:34 LOL? 16:19:44 you answered by saying “there were discussions on irc” 16:19:48 lol 16:20:05 I even resummarized those discussions on irc just for your convenience 16:20:56 is it too much to ask for a github issue about a technical change such as this one? 16:21:52 Probably not, but when the person telling you to do it is inflammatory, argues in bad faith, brain dead, and disruptive for ongoing work, you wonder why you have to feed to the trolls and stoop to their every demand. 16:23:42 Is this ad hominem? Probably, yeah. All true btw. But ad hominem, so I will rebut with actual content. 16:23:58 Github conversations are not the be all and end all of where decisions are made. 16:24:30 IRC/Matrix conversations are just as valid. Especially by actual implementors. 16:24:47 I, too, get annoyed when people reference IRC conversations and don't do the work of digging up the logs for people who weren't there. 16:25:19 But I personally do accept evidence from people who reach back and show logs from IRC. So, at the very least, even if you disagree, I'm internally consistent. 16:25:29 That you don't accept the logs even when provided is a you thing. 16:26:29 I conceded that past meetings were not marketed well, were not conveyed to the public well of when they would happen. So I asked and made sure this past meeting was vocalized and had an up to date github issue. 16:26:34 The people came were the people that came. 16:27:42 You and I won't ever really see eye-to-eye on this issue though. Because what it comes down to is I think bringing the entire community in on every little thing grinds any sort of progress to a stand-still. 16:28:14 Not because of differing views, mind you, but because there will always be someone who feels they didn't get to weigh in (why didn't you post this on Reddit? Where was the twitter post? I can't make Saturdays blah blah blah) 16:28:32 It seems you’re still upset at me for getting you fired. It’s causing you to act irrational and petulant. Remember when I said your dark-mode-only design isn’t going to fly? Your response was “the community wants dark mode”. Turns out the community doesn’t. In a previous meeting I asked you to try and refresh the current design. You 16:28:32 ignored me then but this is exactly what you’re doing now. So who’s brain dead? 16:29:08 I think if there is general social and political will from the people inside of a workgroup (which I define as the people in the correct channels that actively contribute) then I think that's enough to generally move forward. 16:29:53 I don’t remember you providing logs, you just said that you “resummarized those discussions for my convenience”. So will you act in good faith towards the community that’s paying you and actually post a summary on github where people can chime in without having to sift through endless ramblings? 16:29:56 Ah, now that I've had some time to think, I actually do have a pushback to your "the community doesn't want dark mode, see why it's valuable to listen to me?" thing 16:30:11 if you actually read what most of the comments are, it's not "dark mode bad", it's "not broke, don't fix" 16:30:31 there are a few "no dark mode" yes. There are a few "cool dark mode" too, yes 16:30:40 Janaka changed their mind, sure. As people definitely can do, from time to time. 16:30:57 But your assertion that "see? nobody wanted dark mode as a new website" isn't correct. 16:31:31 Sure, whatever makes you feel better. I’m not going to argue with your reality distortion field. 16:31:35 In addition, I keep having to reiterate this (points for you on the braindead scale), I wasn't trying to railroad my design through. I was trying to make a design that I would then present to the workgroup and community at large for consideration. 16:32:03 whether it was to be "the one" didn't mater 16:32:38 I’m also going to reiterate that until you post a github issue outlining the reasons we need to change the backend or the website you’re not acting in good faith. 16:32:57 of the website* 16:32:58 I scrolled up, did replies of the comments, copy and pasted the exact comments in case it didn't work for IRC people, etc. 16:34:02 The who? He only quotes a single person message. Lol. Smh. 16:34:10 and in response to "In a previous meeting I asked you to try and refresh the current design. You ignored me then but this is exactly what you’re doing now." 16:34:15 yes because you alone don't tell me what to do 16:34:19 Calls it 'a community' and it's just him and Janaka. 🤣 16:34:27 after this past meeting, the workgroup decided that was the way forward 16:34:30 no just you 16:34:50 What a clown... Why are we even giving him any attention any more? 16:35:33 funnily enough, if we were actually to tally, I'd say hammerman's design isn't that far behind "not broke, don't fix" 16:35:43 taking into consideration the reddit, monero.town, and IRC people 16:36:08 it trails, for sure. But not by much 16:36:53 Everyone wants a dark theme, retard. 16:37:11 so all this to say "we're still waiting"? No. Still waiting to have this discussion on another platform, maybe. 16:37:52 But as usual, you reduce and distill things that are more complex into little soundbytes that push your biases 16:40:03 You could’ve posted the github issue by now instead of arguing about interpretations of consensus 16:40:24 You’re also not in a position to determine consensus since you’re literally a beneficiary here. 16:40:35 😴 16:40:54 Diego Salazar consider ignoring him and just moving forward. 16:41:09 Waste of time and effort arguing with the garden gnome. 16:41:31 But pesky things like ethics have never stopped you before so don’t mind me 16:41:43 Haha, cannot believe he implied you are pushing so hard for backend change because you want to "extend" your CCS. 🤣🤣 16:42:07 two peas in a pod we are, then geonic 16:42:45 Why are we even listening to this guy's opinion when all he knows to do is turn on and off his Mac for his movies production process? 16:42:54 because unfortunately all we have left is inflammatory people :P 16:43:10 What kind of frontend and backend skills you got to have an opinion in this, distinguished 'film director' geonic? 16:43:15 😂😂😂 16:43:18 rottenwheel, geonic, and ofrn, all of which hate each other btw 16:43:38 hilariously enough are the ones who care about the project as a whole enough to actually show up 16:45:51 Hey, dont put words in my mouth 16:46:02 I definitely have no personal beef with geonic 16:46:39 ok, I retract the portion from you to geonic then. Apologies. 16:47:24 Rottens a coward bootlicker, and i definitely dont like his 2 faced style. but on a personal level, he's just a noise maker whon i couldnt care less about him 16:48:41 i dont hate rotten, i just don't respect ppl with sore knees is all 16:49:26 Who does he simp for other than diego? 16:49:40 scott, sgp, anyone who abused him 16:49:50 Anyone who has power over him, like plowsof 16:50:04 I earn the simps via my onlyfans fair and square 16:51:50 On topic, i still would like to see you proposed design in light mode, with rectangle buttons and hero small/off to one side like current design 16:52:38 is geonic purposely trying to disrupt the website workgroup? 16:53:02 Isnt he always? Since he opened mbll's ccs? 16:53:27 Hes a perpetual disrupter. Probably his job 16:54:06 I’m asking questions and getting a “consensus has already been reached” response. Very disruptive. 16:54:32 all I see is accusing others of bad faith and being delusional 16:54:40 so yes, disruptive 16:55:19 and the brain dead/bad faith comments towards me are ignored? 16:55:20 "On topic, i still would like to see you proposed design in light mode, with rectangle buttons and hero small/off to one side like current design" my 2c on the convo 16:55:45 lol, mute us both 16:56:15 scroll up further luigi, I did indeed lay into him 16:56:39 Had a cheerleader too. Unfair diego! 16:56:50 (/s) 16:57:41 I agree with geonic on the point that i want to cont discussion, specifically the post i sent twice 16:57:43 I disagree that we need to discuss astro 16:58:10 My summary is we had many meetings and decided some things (particularly that we would switch backends). Geonic wasn't at those meetings and so now those decisions don't count and we have to go back to square 1. 16:58:32 A similar point of contention similat to astro was docs. Do we use "just the docs", or "mkdocs". That got solved in like 1.5 days. This shouldn't be a 3 month long discussion 16:58:34 I went out of my way to summarize, link to, and copy/paste the relevant points of discussion. He don't care. 16:58:43 Geonic can give a summary of his perspective if he cares 16:58:49 Plowsof, hardened, syntheticbird and even siren chimed in 16:59:17 rotten fought for hugo and now seems to be on board with astro 16:59:23 do others agree with this summary? :) 16:59:50 It also appears that (from a quick google) that astro easily supports dark and light theme toggles 17:00:08 Siren: SyntheticBird rottenwheel janaka plowsof 17:00:21 Siren summed it up properly: as long as its able to be maintained in MD, it doesnt really matter 17:00:23 agree with my summary or disagree or have things to add/remove? 17:01:12 geonic also too can comment on my summary, obviously 17:01:49 I don't agree with "use old design" yet, since the new homepage is very similar and more appealing imo. id prefer to see the new diego homepage in light mode b4 making a decision 17:02:38 Agree with Diego's summary. 17:02:42 Maybe the links to those discussions didn’t transfer to IRC because I haven’t seen any logs. I joined the 3rd meeting. I specifically asked what’s to be gained by changing backends and was told that translations is one reason. This was later rebutted. 17:02:45 Use old design is "fine", but, again, new design isnt all that much different - aside from the hero and circle buttons 17:03:13 Ofrnxmr surely will keep saying bootlicker, now more loudly lol. 17:03:21 one guy who didn't attend meetings to decide things doesn't get to derail progress post facto unless there are very good reasons. Laying into each other etc I don't care about too much unless it continues, etc. 17:03:29 rotten he has a way with words 17:03:42 i attended every meeting 17:03:43 Indeed, such a poet. 17:03:58 I'll pull back my insults. Apologies. 17:03:59 He's blocked and ignored, I don't care much. 17:04:01 Rotten has a way with words too, everybody is a dwarf, tranny, fatass 17:04:07 Just highlighting so everyone's eyes get prepped. 17:04:18 Not a very large vocab from that one 17:04:42 All I’ve asked for is a short summary/bullet points giving the pros/cons to the different platform options. Ideally on github where people can comment without reading ofrn and rotten’s ramblings 17:04:54 Even called me the N word yesterday :D. Running out of ways to deflect 17:05:02 luigi, does core care about the back end of the website at all? 17:05:09 i.e. jekyll vs something else? 17:05:16 I don't 17:05:20 whatever works best 17:05:40 And can be maintained in MD* 17:05:41 binaryFate: might have an opinion since he runs the server(?) 17:06:11 ofrn I thought that was implied, but yes works including running and maintaining git wise 17:06:24 Hardenedsteel is here too 17:06:29 plowsof and hardenedsteel’s opinions also have weight here imo 17:07:16 just for you geonic, I will do this one more time. And then I will do as you ask and post it on github. 17:07:25 But really man, I don't understand why you have to take the most inflammatory route possible 17:07:56 gm sirs 17:07:57 not "we're still waiting on any reasons". No, dude. "I'd like to see this discussion elsewhere also" 17:08:05 oh yeah rando was also at said meetings 17:08:12 i don't know the backend but custom.css is a problem. 17:08:28 diego: thank you 17:08:58 yes, if u guys are talking about backend, I recall you saying backend change is need as plow said it is glued together cluster fuk 17:09:12 needed* 17:09:51 current design has low maintainability 17:10:07 probably backend change can fix that 17:10:35 deja vu on this conversation 17:10:43 > it is glued together cluster fuk 17:10:48 Nice, expressive description 17:11:27 he said/she said… but then plowsof said that the plugin is the issue and not the platform. a github issue would clear that up 17:12:35 no, it would waste time 17:13:03 its not like were deciding randomx vs sha3 17:13:10 Its a fkn website backend 17:13:23 we can sumbit logs on meta 17:13:38 after finishing, annouce it on blog if needed 17:13:47 no need for github "issue" 17:13:57 We should just use mkdocs like privacyguides /s 17:13:59 AND, if I may belabor a point again, I am NOT a beneficiary of switching backends 17:14:29 I am NOT the one going to code this. I have no monetary horse in this race. 17:17:43 Other people throw away backends and the websites on top of them in a rythm of 3 years because things develop and change with such breakneck speed in Web-land ... 17:18:10 it is for docs only 17:18:32 Janaka is cool with astro, cuprate uses it (so we have more than 1 person with experience with it), and it works with dark + light themes and suppoe%s markdown and no js. 17:18:33 the only reason it would be a subject is the value proposition of reusing the old website, ie, why redesign the old website if only for a backend and content change. Is the backend change even necessary? Or is the content the issue? 17:18:35 imho, if were starting everythint anew, the backend change is obvious. If were reusing a lot, it becomes more of a "why" instead of a "why not". which, imo, is also a "why use old site" aside from indecisiveness. 17:18:37 tldr: ofrn wants to see new design in light mode 17:18:49 Diego Salazar didnt tell me your opinion on https://nymtech.net/ 17:19:08 I let the intrusive thoughts win and responded to geonic instead, sorry 17:19:29 rando the whoke website is mkdocs https://www.privacyguides.org/en/ 17:19:44 (offtopic for thus discussion tho) 17:20:01 yes, but you can't have custom pages 17:20:08 “imho, if were starting everythint anew, the backend change is obvious. If were reusing a lot, it becomes more of a "why" instead of a "why not".” <=== exactly 17:20:09 like downloads etc 17:21:01 looks terrible btw if js disabled, they could have done the same design without js 17:21:09 I’m asking for the “why”. Only thing I’ve heard so far is translations but apparently the problem there is the plugin. 17:22:30 The design isnt the elephant in the room, the content is 17:22:38 Keep Jekyll and geonic maintains it moving forward. 17:22:47 geonic: https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/issues/2140#issuecomment-2377523643 17:22:55 There is absolutely zero need to change backend guys! He'll run it since he does not want to change it! 17:22:57 If were redoing content, we should take the opportunity to refresh the ui 17:23:35 diego: amazing, thank you 17:24:57 I once attempted a slight redesign of the download page, to fit in the then-new installer for Windows. Needed a second column or something like that. Almost despaired. 17:25:09 Seriously man. Rein back on your "ends justify the means" thing. 17:25:15 BTW, you would be shepherding the process and the longer that process is the longer you can bill us, so I maintain that you’re not a totally disinterested party 17:26:09 Diego I stand by what I said. Engaging with this jerk is both a waste of everyone's time and efforts. Desist. 17:26:32 I cannot post comment because Ciccione's bitch ass has me blocked. 🤷‍♂️ 17:26:39 Perks of relying on an old issue. 17:26:57 > +1 change backend to Astro (personally prefer Hugo but whatever.) Can even keep current Jekyll theme, just be ported to Hugo, like we did for Revuo. Digilol can help with this. 17:27:06 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/kernal.eu/FexruracXqpvQUXCHosTvbMi 17:27:18 I agree with 75% of his takes, ironically. But boy is he a bitch to work with in any capacity 17:27:22 Why do you prefer Hugo rotten? 17:28:09 Because it's what Revuo uses. It's Go instead of Ruby. Has plenty of documentation, themes, community... 17:29:26 Hugo has i18n support too, which is what plowsof et. al. would need for translations! 17:30:42 Yes. I noted from my deep dive that Astro is more or less equivalent to Hugo here. The only reason Astro gets an edge is because 1. we have a person willing to maintain in Astro, 2. Astro is Javascript, which has a larger community than Go overall. 17:31:30 Javascript... The neckbeards would be having a heart attack. Preferring JS over Go! 17:31:55 Yeah, the Astro shills in this room are a bit odd, but cool nonetheless. 17:32:02 I'm certainly not recommending making a Monero implementation in JS, for sure. 17:32:36 but for the purposes of a static, information-based website, it doesn't really matter much 17:34:21 One person doesn’t sound super reassuring. Do we have potential maintainers for Hugo? 17:35:24 > One person doesn’t sound super reassuring 17:35:31 How many you would like? 17:36:04 rip 17:36:25 Measured with such a yardstick almost nothing in Monero dev work is "supper reassuring", just saying 17:36:33 What if that person disappears? 17:36:37 14 17:36:58 Do we have anyone else who can do the job 17:37:01 Yeah, what if moneromooo disappears? Well, Monero disappeared together with them. Or did it? 17:37:10 Do we have maintainers for jekyll? No 17:37:34 we have content contributors and a static site generator 17:37:41 Thankfully moneromoo isn’t the only one who knows C++ or how wallet2 works.. 17:37:47 We would not be able to find somebody to maintain a website based on Astro? Come on, now it gets absurd 17:37:54 >Thankfully moneromoo isn’t the only one who knows C++ or how wallet2 works.. 17:38:03 Hey, that sounds downright reasonable 17:38:05