00:00:54 "The website is built using the Astro framework, which is a JavaScript static site generator that allows for modern web development features while shipping zero client-side JavaScript by default." 00:01:19 breaking the default 00:01:32 "Enforced no client-side JavaScript in shipped pages through CI (JavaScript used at build time only)." 00:01:56 Is that the CCS statement? 00:02:16 If so, the widget can be tested and put on the side. Wait for @redsh4de:matrix.org to complete, and then PR 00:02:26 https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/620 00:02:32 it is, that's why was wondering how strict the requirement on no JS is 00:02:33 if i want the toggle i actually have to do a lot of extra work so that the CI even allows the toggle 00:02:46 😆 00:02:50 because as per the CCS i made it so any, any hint of JS gets burned and destroyed 00:03:42 would be hilarious if adding the toggle renders the CCS invalid xD i'll make it but in a seperate branch, as a PR 00:03:44 @redsh4de:matrix.org: I think there should be a toggle, but my burned eyes aren't worth the pain you'll get through if you try re discussing your CCS statement 00:03:47 CI will fail on it but yea 00:04:06 @syntheticbird: i'll still migrate to light-dark this is real nice 00:04:13 janaka also wanted to add some JS and had pushback https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/450 00:04:15 Can make it use dark theme by default if the browser doesnt report the system settkng? 00:04:30 So tor users get dark theme 00:04:34 nope 00:04:58 possible i think 00:05:04 not sure if with light-dark though 00:05:16 definitely not with light-dark 00:05:38 WHY ARE YOU SPOILING EVERYTHING OFRN 00:05:45 WE WERE THIS CLOSE FROM PERFECTION 00:05:45 another option 00:05:46 although this is cursed 00:05:48 BUT YOU HAD TO COMPLAIN 00:05:50 and never should be done 00:05:51 YOU AND YOUR EGO 00:05:59 is making a no-JS toggle 00:06:02 how would that work? 00:06:10 we simply generate double the pages 00:06:16 one light theme, and one dark theme 00:06:21 😂 00:06:24 🥱 00:06:37 horrible 00:06:45 then we would have routes like beta.monerodevs.org/en/dark/what-is-monero 00:06:45 heresy 00:06:46 I just dont want to change my system setting so i can see the light theme 00:07:04 perfect then let it be light by default 00:07:19 so that he convert everything into light-dark 00:07:23 he will join the cult 00:07:30 and I will fulfill my divine duty 00:07:31 its not like no js was an important part in gaining support for merging of the CCS or needed to be stated clearly in the proposal, who adheres to their proposals anyway nowerdays 00:08:15 @plowsof:matrix.org: definitely kewbit 00:08:49 @plowsof:matrix.org: Can still leave it as a pr and get wider communoty feedback before actual deployment or smthn 00:09:01 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: what i proposed yes 00:09:04 well yeah like i said, as per the CCS - there won't be any JS in what i ship 00:09:04 but i will make a seperate branch, not to be merged in main with that option 00:09:04 if later when the page is on getmonero.org people do open up to the idea of having that small bit - people can then later merge it, then its out of my hands 00:09:09 @syntheticbird: Fuck you 00:10:28 I did try the light theme (had to use tor browser 🤮). It is a bit rough on the eyes 00:11:13 wait did I got teleported into an alternate universe or ofrnxmr is complaining about light mode? 00:11:27 every light mode sucks 00:12:02 the human brain isn't designed to process that much lack of colors 00:12:32 trust me I have on shared brain cell with a lot of people and we all think the same 00:12:44 it didn't evolve to look at a screen 00:13:45 I'm actually born with an HDMI port. checkmate meat man 00:14:52 <321bob321> boomer 00:14:57 <321bob321> display port now 00:15:36 so true 00:15:41 https://github.com/redsh4de/monero-site/pull/104 00:15:54 -41 +14, love it 00:16:03 There you stood on the edge of your feather, 00:16:06 Expecting to fly. 00:16:32 lmfao the commit message 00:52:30 togglel 00:52:35 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/xCJLUEwnmOnuJsjnlwtYJgzh.png (image.png) 00:52:36 @syntheticbird:monero.social: 00:52:53 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/RyleGUUFQTMMdPfVzBxHrSql.png (image.png) 00:54:25 toggle itself uses exactly 9 whole lines of javascript 00:59:50 if JS is disabled - goes back to inferring theme from browser/system and toggle never appears 00:59:53 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/RLsUAyzZoQlSsKgeKiTilDpI.png (image.png) 01:01:02 since we are breaking conventions can we add a price ticker? 01:01:08 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 01:01:47 guess this is why they call it a slippery slope :P in any case not sure where a good place would be 01:02:31 but yeah this will live on the cancer/js-theme-toggle branch when i push it as this is radioactive and will not pass CI anyway 01:05:07 how many lines of js is a price ticker 01:05:43 a couple magnitudes more than the theme toggle for sure 01:06:04 eh actually if you fetch from coingecko not that much 01:06:07 its just one get? lol 01:06:09 not needed anyway, not essential 01:06:36 yeah just get from a external source, moreso the formatting and display to make it look nicer 01:07:29 didn't I say ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 01:08:16 just go against your proposal and make it pass CI 01:08:31 https://github.com/redsh4de/monero-site/commit/f9d202121efb9ba3c6f4bef712b3d103fb52b9f5 01:09:26 is there a citation for that? 01:09:46 or did you create this themetoggle yourself? 01:10:42 yeah no citation needed, it just stores the last set variable in local storage, loads it if one was set, falls back to prefers-color-scheme 01:10:53 and responds to system theme changes in either case 01:11:04 no citation needed so you created it yourself? 01:11:19 yes 01:12:25 had to twist your arm to cite my CI workflows after you refactored them with AI so im just wondering 01:12:36 thanks for confirming 01:13:36 its very minimal - one localstorage variable, load and fallbacks 01:14:11 redsh4de: thanks for your feedback. my comments on that: what is the problem if a page is AI generated? does it make it less valueable? the purpose of a page is to display information and adopt as fast as possbiel. whats the point to develop 6 month what you can have in one week? a static generated web page has no security issues. your argument I dont understand. to your 3. point. do you consider the 01:14:17 page as a draft? its not a content ready web page. its just a first impression. the issue with the content and the order of information is the least barrier. have you created a sales landing page before? what was your experience. your current draft is a CMS system. the user who comes first time visiting monero dont know what to do. the best results if you have a clear path of interaction with a call to 01:14:23 action goal. you can have a knowledge base later on. its like an ad. you dont present 1000 page of information for someone to buy. conversion is the number one obstacle in monero. monero needs a clear guidance. just to blow up someone with information makes zero sense. I had my struggle to figure out how to use monero. you come to the webpage the first time and you are overhelmed with information. ofc 01:14:29 some arrogant people might think I am just too stupid to understand but with that approach you just lose momentum. you build a currency for adoption not for an elite sitting in a tower looking down. in every business you have a clear path of user interaction. if you let the user alone he will go left and right and get frustrated on the way. thats why the first page needs to be a little bit more 01:14:35 entertaining. a sales page that animates the user to buy the product monero. you have to think more from a business and marketing perspective. and I am not a fan of animations and many colors too. I said it already, but what converts and what is your subjective opinion is not the same. on a core level you dont need to agree with what people wants but we talk about a landing page that should be made user 01:14:41 centric first. what converts is what is the best. so can we agree on this purpose or goal at least? 01:14:52 and consider that with the help of AI I was able to make this page in one day. you have been sitting for it since 6 month. do you see the difference? 01:15:14 the difference is one codebase is maintainable and consistent 01:15:16 the other isn't 01:15:34 a webpage isn't just shiny effects it's all the infra features happening in the background that the end user does not see 01:15:46 localization, theming, compatible icons with a vast majority of browsers 01:16:09 CI/CD for validation, workflows 01:16:56 its easy to just broadstroke "oh i proompted this design in one day via Claude and you have been doing this for 3 months" without understanding the context of what the 3 months were spent on 01:17:15 redsh4de: sorry for my tone but who cares? the result matters. nobody develop in assamble - why because its slow in development. we shifted to higher languages like python that are not perfect on a core level but make the job done faster and easier. so why holding on old pattern? we use AI to generate templates that FIT. if you use hugo zola or astro nobody cares. 01:17:40 People that have to maintain and run and update the site do 01:18:19 proompting everything and ending up with something that looks subpar and that other people have difficulty contributing to unless they also proompt with their AI models is a complete non-starter 01:18:31 because you are not developing the website for just yourself 01:18:35 but for everyone else who might add things to it later 01:18:54 ofrnxmr: as I said its not a end result, it should just show the direction. 01:19:49 rsch you are not serious but thanks for showing what the site could be 01:19:58 https://docs.astro.build/en/tutorial/6-islands/2/ looks familiar 01:20:29 or https://astro-tips.dev/recipes/dark-mode/ 01:21:13 didn't look at either of these 01:21:13 * the lucide icons i downloaded are literally called sun & moon 01:22:23 impressive(css): well done 01:23:31 plowsof: this is too overcomplicated at first glance 01:28:51 and about the mascot I dont agree with it. a logo yes but a mascot is too silly. this kind of idean have to come from females. 01:28:58 @plowsof: what do you mean with not seirous? 01:32:59 redsh4de: who says you have to use AI only? the most important is the content. for that you can use a template engine like zalo 01:34:12 but writing css from scratch like in 2000 makes no sense if you can use AI. just look to the page I generated and the page that was developed for 6 month. speed matters too. so im just wondering if we should move away from micro controling focusing on more important topics like content and transaction and marketing. 01:35:35 plowsof: do you think I have nothing better to do than joining a channel in my freetime and try to improve something without anything in return if im not serious about? what do you think I am a troll? 01:45:00 You're not coming across as someone capable of working in a community or team 01:45:58 Youve spent more time trying to shove your opinion down our throats, than you spent vibe coding a 4/10 website 01:46:38 "one-shotted" (to quote an MRL meeting) 01:48:32 You come across as terribly entitled. For someone who spent 20mins telling ai to modify getmonero.org (by changing colors and making it ugly), youve not earned any respect yet you demand it. 01:50:02 this is a FOSS project, its possible rsch is correct and we're all wrong - thats the beauty of this all, but come on, you are advising us on how to sell monero when you can't sell your own idea correctly - at least........ you where not aware of the redesign until a few hours ago, this isn just not serious at all 01:50:50 He could very well be correct, but that website is still ugly 01:51:13 Ai did a disservice by letting him think it was presentable 01:51:21 i will never forget the website or this interaction 01:53:48 plowsof: interesting how you feel triggered. im here in my free time and get no payment. why should I not be straight? I am direct and want direct responses. if that offends you im sorry for that but maybe you should wonder why it does. its not the first time I contribute you and most of the time I feel to walk on eggshels. maybe we should grew up and stop being so emotional. I am serious to improve the 01:53:54 project and yes I expect that this effort is respected and appriciated. does it mean you have to agree with evertything I present. no I dont expect it. but the state of the current webpage is embarrassing and its time to redesign it. so thanks god someone is there already doing it since 6 months but if you need another 6 months to put it online its too late. and yes im here to stresstest the current 01:54:00 state so im asking you to be less judgemental and be more focused on the topic instead getting personal or emotinoal. thank you 01:55:26 plowsof, look to the chat above. I have said that I know the redesign already and it was offline yesterday. but I was also not sure if it was official or just a normal user making a draft as me. thats why I am here before putting an issue in github and getting feedback after days. I think im right here talking to the people who take the decision. 01:55:41 i dont think anyone's being emotional? just honest with their opinion 01:55:41 and fwiw, the implementation of the redesign was started in late october. so active development has been going on for a little over 2 months, not 6. 6 months ago was just when the design was approved 01:56:19 I want to colaborate with you guys and not to offend you and Im not here to sell anything but to make aware of improvements. so again less judgement and less interpretation of intention and more focusin on the topic. 01:56:22 rsch link to your previous work / contributions 01:56:51 youve not shared the source of the site you shared 01:57:15 Its official and has been for 6 months 01:57:43 there have been multiple designs presented, multiple iterations 01:57:48 I had my issues to figure monero out visint the page the first time because its difficult to get an orientation. dont be so arrogant to acknowledge that monero has not the best marketing. monero has an fantastic technology and its painful to watch it having low awareness because the presentation has a lack of skill. and i dont want to apologize for me having this opinion. I would like to see monero 01:57:54 growing. is that bad? 01:57:56 It is now in the implementation stage. 01:58:14 plowsof you want me to deplay the current design or what you mean? 01:58:33 Where is your source code 01:58:50 What other websites have you designed 01:59:08 What contributions have you made to monero or other projects 01:59:25 I fixed a bug for example 01:59:28 Aside from the 20mins you spent today telling duckai to make a new skin for getmonero.org 01:59:32 in moneros wallet 01:59:56 which 02:00:03 ofrnxmr: why have you not done it then yourself instead letting the page like that for years? 02:00:17 ofrnxmr: wait a moment 02:00:17 nah you're not serious 02:00:36 rsch: Because the current website, visually, is fine 02:01:14 the main and arguably the only reasons were switching designs, is 1. To redo the content from scratch 2. To add a dark theme 02:02:12 Reusing the current theme was a very popular option 02:02:47 ofrnxmr: https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/9943 and https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/9945. but let me guess you will talk it down right? 02:04:12 ofrnxmr: the new website is good for content management but the first landing page should be more salsy more like a project presentation. it is not at the moment. my design was just an approach to add a flare to it 02:04:43 rsch: No, this was a good find and fix 02:05:24 ofrnxmr: so can you stop talking my efforts down and refuse ideas that you dont agree. I think I have a point and my intentions are only trying to help the project. 02:05:44 No 02:05:50 This website skin sucks 02:05:55 and it does not matter if my approach is using AI or not. AI is the future. and not ultizing it its foolish. 02:06:23 ofrnxmr: what exactly sucks? the colors? the sizes? I can try a new approach if you can tell me what is missing 02:06:36 we have low awareness cause we are not on coinbase unlike fartcoin 02:06:46 The fact everyone can immediately tell that the website was thrown together in 20mins by some free-tier LLM = it sucks 02:07:19 the redesign improves on the presentation aspect > ofrnxmr: the new website is good for content management but the first landing page should be more salsy more like a project presentation. it is not at the moment. my design was just an approach to add a flare to it 02:07:19 on load you get two call to actions in the hero - get started and about monero. first moves you to a section with three steps to get started using monero, and the second moves you to a informational page. whole flow of the index page optimizes for presentation and doesn't waste space or user attention 02:07:25 It has zero personality, its just a not-good reskin 02:07:40 nioc: this is the most of it 02:07:40 ofrnxmr: :D 02:07:49 interesting 02:08:03 the reason you can say is because you are developers and you had to look into the codebase 02:08:06 I didnt even pay attention to the placement of anything. The skin / theme is bad 02:08:09 a normal user will never think like that 02:08:26 ofrnxmr: hows that? 02:08:46 just ask AI to make it better - why request feedback from the people you have trashed (for helping create the current redesign) 02:08:47 imma goin back to watching NGU 02:08:53 Its like how some people think toilet water tastes good 02:09:25 joining to give my 2 cents. LLM slop is unmaintainable and should not be used outside of demos. All this talk about "AI being the future" is off-topic and BTW it's a bubble that will come crashing down 2026-2027. Kind regards 02:09:26 plowsof: nobody has trashed anyone, this is what you feel. if I wanted to trash someone I would never spend my time thinking about the project improvements. its just judgemental 02:09:59 ofrnxmr: this is actly what I think about the current website 02:10:29 you can think whatever you want about the current website, its deprecated 02:10:31 octavian lets make a bet 02:10:41 The future is beta.monerodevs.org 02:10:58 If you don't like beta.monerodevs.org, improve it 02:11:20 ofrnxmr: exactly and it should be deprecated. I wanted to know if you agree to change the start page to make it more like a funnel and a business landingpage. 02:11:30 This is a community design, and community implementation. Your contributions are welcome 02:11:48 ok got it I try a PR and we will see 02:12:02 I just wanted to check if there is any resistance because its also my freetime to do that 02:12:06 @ofrnxmr: ^ 02:12:07 like we said, if you have an idea for improvement, open up a pull request, previews are enabled, nobody is stopping you 02:12:07 maybe we are all wrong and if you are sure what you are proposing will look good then try it instead of non-productively arguing 02:13:07 only took 6 ish hours 02:13:19 If we were ai, we wouldnt argue or offer resistance. We'd just do it 02:13:51 redsh4de: what is wrong against an open discussion? 02:14:09 plowsof: I got the point that you dont see the value in this discussion. thanks for your comment on that 02:14:21 an open discussion does not move development further 02:14:32 opening a PR to the repo does 02:15:00 im not a fan of astro but its ok 02:15:11 don't make the PR from your master branch (tip) 02:15:33 plowsof: which branch 02:15:52 make a new branch 02:16:20 ofc I will do a new branch I will not start from scratch but you branch from another branch and I guess it will be master 02:16:29 @redsh4de:matrix.org: It does if i am an LLM 02:16:43 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: i guess so 02:17:57 redshe4de, what is the most recent branch in your repo? master or another one? 02:18:04 for a PR 02:18:50 the main branch - you should make a fork, then on your fork make a new branch from main - something like feat/better-index, and make your changes there 02:19:11 ok 02:20:36 and just to share my 2 cents on the topic retoswap. yes the landing page is what I am looking for monero. it presents a clear visual image of the client is. has a call to action to download the client. the content can be improved but thats what I would like to see in monero. I make a proposal and then you can bash on it 03:11:22 knowledge base route deployed: https://beta.monerodevs.org/resources/knowledge-base/ 03:11:27 as always images are the bottleneck 03:15:16 that’s it from me for today 10:19:56 @syntheticbird:monero.social: toggle stuff: https://github.com/redsh4de/monero-site/compare/cancer/js-theme-toggle 10:36:02 for CI to pass i'd probably have to allow