00:15:04 <apotheon> What's the most Coinbase-like, easy-ass way to buy nontrivial quantities of Monero, or at least BTC (for later conversion to Monero), that isn't KYC?  Does it exist?
00:15:18 <apotheon> By "nontrivial", I mean like a few thousand USD.
00:16:20 <apotheon> . . . and by Coinbase-like, I mean "Someone with no knowledge of stock trading won't have the Kraken experience of not having any clue how to actually buy something."
00:18:35 <nioc> So easy buy with fiat that is non kyc
00:18:44 <apotheon> um
00:18:50 <apotheon> What are you saying?
00:18:55 <nioc> sounds like a unicorn 
00:19:03 <apotheon> yeah
00:19:19 <apotheon> I mean . . . there are things that do it, but they're all hard for a newb to use.
00:19:50 <apotheon> Apparently TradeOgre does . . . or at least did.
00:20:02 <nioc> Never had fiat
00:20:08 <apotheon> I don't hear good things about it being beginner-friendly.
00:20:15 <nioc> They now have usdt
00:20:21 <apotheon> ah
00:20:28 <apotheon> Is that how TradeOgre did it?
00:20:32 <apotheon> okay
00:20:41 <nioc> No customer service to speak of at TO
00:20:46 <apotheon> sure
00:21:01 <apotheon> no customer service to speak of at a lot of things
00:22:15 <apotheon> Okay, I guess that clears it up.  Maybe the things I've seen that don't look newbie-friendly and don't require KYC are just not fiat-accessible.
00:22:50 <apotheon> . . . but then, I don't know why nobody with the ability to make a user-friendly interface got into that space, either.
00:23:02 <apotheon> The closest I've seen is Cake Wallet.
01:36:01 <apotheon> So . . . correct me if I'm wrong:
01:36:30 <apotheon> With Cake Wallet, one can use a credit card to buy BTC, then use the BTC to buy Monero, all within the application.  Right?
01:38:23 <Henry151> so how real is atmoic swap? if i have some btc can i just atomic swap it for monero and have it vanish into thin air?
01:40:39 <kayabaNerve> Someone has XMR. You have BTC. You agree on a price. You can trade it with a guarantee you won't scam each other. Then, you have XMR.
01:41:29 <Henry151> sounds like a good deal to me. What's the premium in a typical transaction of say, a few thousand USD?
03:50:14 <yanmaani1> apotheon: kraken, or coinbase -> btc -> crypto to crypto
04:22:11 <apotheon> Henry151: I don't think there have been enough atomic swaps yet to be able to make much of a comment about "typical" transaction premiums.
04:22:53 <kayabaNerve> COMIT market makers should have publicly known rates and there should be a few of them. It should also be fixed, not scaling with quantity Henry151 
04:44:24 <apotheon> .val btc
04:44:24 <Wallet> apotheon: BTC -> USD • Avg: ≈64892.39 • ccc/Coinbase: ≈$65005.18 24HΔ: 1.48% Vol: 13.91K [0m] • cmc: ≈$64779.59 24HΔ: 1.35% 7DΔ: 11.52417% [< 15m] 
04:44:49 <apotheon> .val xmr
04:44:49 <Wallet> apotheon: XMR -> USD • Avg: ≈262.65 • ccc/btse: ≈$262.85 24HΔ: 2.99% Vol: 7.39K [0m] • cmc: ≈$262.45 24HΔ: 2.87% 7DΔ: -3.76% [< 15m] 
04:48:33 <apotheon> Henry151: If you go to the getmonero.org site's merchants page, near the bottom is a section about atomic swaps with a link to an atomic swap provider.
04:49:00 <apotheon> Henry151: I just checked, and that provider looks like it works through a Tor connection.
05:08:10 <apotheon> I'm curious about what would be "safer" and more anonymous -- Cake Wallet to buy BTC then atomic swaps through Tor, or Cake Wallet transactions for both parts.
05:09:40 <apotheon> I need to see some analysis of the opsec options for various paths.  I'm still not familiar enough with all the technologies involved (especially Cake Wallet, but also some stuff related to atomic swaps, Bisq, and so on) to be sure I'm evaluating things properly.
17:11:37 <garth> Any update for increasing Monero’s ring size via Triptych or Lelantus or Seraphis or whatever?
17:14:56 <nioc> garth triptych makes multisig complicated which seems to be a stopper for it
17:15:09 <nioc> seraphis seems the most promising and a poc was recently funded for it and is currently being worked on
17:15:52 <nioc> no timeline ofc
17:16:25 <nioc> as for ring size somewhere from 64 to 256
17:18:19 <Mochi101> We need +7 billion to be truly safe.
17:18:32 <Mochi101> 1 ring for every living soul.
17:18:54 <Mochi101> True plausible deniability.
17:19:47 <nioc> there are other benefits to Seraphis such as improved watch only wallets and the ability to prove txs and other info while giving away less info than is currently required 
17:20:16 <nioc> Mochi101: sounds like you are only counting humans
17:20:38 <Mochi101> Did the dolphins start using Monero?
17:20:46 <Mochi101> They really are smart!
17:20:50 <nioc> Cat has her own wallet
17:20:56 <Mochi101> hehehe
18:32:50 <apotheon> Software agents of corporate financial instruments could also get involved.  Now we have to count them, as well as humans and dolphins.
18:33:02 <apotheon> . . . and what about pseudonyms?
18:33:41 <hyc> my tamagotchi has its own wallet
18:33:53 <apotheon> Given these options, what's the safest (most private) path from USD to Monero?
18:33:53 <apotheon> CakeWallet
18:33:55 <apotheon>  USD->BTC->XMR
18:34:05 <apotheon> Cake USD->BTC, AtomicSwap BTC->XMR
18:34:16 <apotheon> Cake USD->BTC, Bisq BTC->XMR
18:34:24 <apotheon> Coinbase USD->Stable, Bisq Stable->XMR
18:34:34 <apotheon> Bisq_Network
18:34:35 <apotheon>  USD->BTC->XMR
18:34:36 <apotheon> damn
18:35:05 <apotheon> Those newlines . . . sorry.  I was copypasta-ing from a context that screwed up my pasts here.
18:36:05 <apotheon> . . . and is there a safer approach that involves only Cake, Samourai, and Monerujo wallets?
18:36:25 <apotheon> Even partial answers are welcome.
18:36:39 <moneromooo> the
18:36:47 <apotheon> The?
18:36:47 <moneromooo> (you're welcome)
18:36:52 <apotheon> Thanks!
18:37:26 <apotheon> I was hoping for at least partially *useful* answers, like "Dude, do both USD->BTC and BTC->Monero in the same wallet!"
18:37:38 <apotheon> (if that's a good piece of advice)
18:38:08 <apotheon> s/Even partial/Even *useful* partial/
18:38:25 <moneromooo> I jumped the gun didn't I.
18:38:29 <apotheon> maybe
18:38:36 <moneromooo> I thought "hey, I can be useful!"
18:38:39 <moneromooo> Oh well.
18:38:42 <apotheon> You get a lot of leeway, though, in part because it was funny.
18:38:59 <moneromooo> That was the intent. Glad to see it wasn't wasted.
18:39:30 <apotheon> I take it you don't feel like you have any insight to offer on this.
18:39:37 <moneromooo> The love of stupid jokes/puns will be my undoing someday.
18:40:04 <apotheon> It has probably already been my undoing.
18:40:22 * moneromooo looks at the backlog for hte actual question...
18:40:27 <apotheon> . . . or contradoing, perhaps; whatever you call it when it prevents your doing before it even happened.
18:54:13 <apotheon> moneromooo: Did you read the question yet?
18:55:32 <moneromooo> Yes. I do not have much to offer there though, having sold my own privacy down the river to an exchange :(
18:56:03 <moneromooo> Haveno might be part of a future answer to this...
18:57:14 <moneromooo> Maybe I'm being foolish, but small exchanges are less likely to be involved in a large data sharing scheme.
18:57:37 <moneromooo> s/sharing/forced sharing/
19:00:36 <Lyza> Bisq / Haveno seems cool except that bank transfers to random people you don't know almost seems more of a red flag than having an exchange account
19:01:24 <Lyza> I've been liking Strike --> FixedFloat though. That, or something like cashapp, won't necessarily look crypto related to your bank
19:02:04 <apotheon> What are the risks with Cake?
19:02:41 <Lyza> but of those options I guess I'd go cake then atomic swap or bisq. Fees for buying in cake are kinda high though, and bisq / atomic swaps both tend to cahrge a price premium too
19:02:59 <Lyza> Cake uses ChangeNow on the back end so, I guess the same as for using that website directly
19:03:08 <apotheon> hmm
19:03:17 <Lyza> centralized exchange, shows up on your bank statement as obviously being a crypto purchase
19:03:18 <apotheon> I don't know much at all about ChangeNow.
19:03:21 <apotheon> gotcha
19:03:46 <apotheon> probably marginally better than something like Coinbase
19:03:54 <Lyza> I would imagine so
19:04:12 <apotheon> What's the risk with buying with USD through Bisq?
19:04:33 <apotheon> I'm not sure how the "random people" thing fits in.  Do you mean whoever's running Bisq?
19:05:04 <Lyza> like I said I'm personally a little sketched out by doing electronic transfers to people I don't know, like my bank might ask questions
19:05:37 <Lyza> Bisq is a peer to peer thing so buying with USD on Bisq means buying from somebody by sending to their bank account.... might also support like Amazon gift cards and stuff. I know LocalMonero does
19:17:47 <ndorf> i do Zelle transfers to/from strangers somewhat regularly, no questions so far
19:28:28 <Lyza> good data point
20:00:42 <apotheon> Lyza: Ah, that's interesting.  I haven't used Bisq for an onramp, so I didn't know that's how it works.
22:16:04 <drew> how large is the trimmed blockchain atm? monerodocs.org was suggesting it was ~31G around January, but I just got this message when running monero-blockchain-prune: 2021-10-21 22:13:39.999 I LMDB Mapsize increased.  Old: 4612MiB, New: 5124MiB
22:16:29 <drew> oh wait, read that as 51G but that's 5G lol, I have a ways to go
22:18:49 <moneromooo> If you mean pruned, it's about 50 GB.
22:19:08 <moneromooo> Sorry, 40.
22:20:43 <drew> pruned, right
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23:42:55 <fluffypony> wut
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