03:03:15 <coco> If you create a wallet with monero-wallet-cli (or GUI) and a hardware wallet, are the keys only ever stored on the hardware wallet?
03:21:34 <selsta> coco: private spend key yes
13:14:34 <cornfeedhobo> today someone asked a question on reddit that included the words "when bitcoin got rebranded as gold"... ahem? rebranded? the thing that called itself an implementation of Bit Gold got rebranded? it's amazing what world view people bring to the table
13:28:23 <psionic> whats amazing is somebody paying 60k for a worthless piece of electronic garbage like buttcoin is
13:28:35 <psionic> even when it was on 1-2k i considered it overpriced
13:28:43 <psionic> all these cryptos should find a top
13:29:07 <psionic> those who buying btc on this price are complete degens
13:30:12 <u221f> it all depends on central banks
13:31:08 <u221f> if they (and politicans) choose to raise interest rates and unwind balance sheets cryptos will suffer very much but so will anything else
13:32:19 <u221f> *politicians
13:35:14 <merope> cornfeedhobo: tons of people like referring to Bitcoin as "digital gold" because of its high price and "scarcity"
13:35:34 <merope> It's an utter load of bullshit, but they really believe in it
13:36:03 <cornfeedhobo> merope: i think you might need to revisit the history of bitcoin. it's compared to gold many times by satoshi.
13:36:32 <cornfeedhobo> it's emission scheme is a direct abstraction on the extraction of precious metals from the earth
13:37:09 <cornfeedhobo> that's why i find it funny that anyone should call it a "rebrand". shows how green they are
13:38:19 <cornfeedhobo> (oof re-reading that sounds dismissive. my apologies. not intended.)
13:38:36 <Rucknium[m]> cornfeedhobo: Bitcoin: A peer-to-peer electronic cash system
13:44:16 <merope> <cornfeedhobo> "endor00: i think you might..." <- Just because Satoshi (or anyone else) may have made some parallels to gold, doesn't mean that Bitcoin is anything like gold
13:44:53 <cornfeedhobo> merope: huh
13:44:58 <merope> And I take serious issue with the whole "Austrian school of economics" schtick because the underlying incentive is fundamentally broken
13:45:08 <cornfeedhobo> heh
13:45:22 <cornfeedhobo> and may i ask when did you enter this space?
13:46:13 <merope> If the supply is limited and everybody "hodls" because they expect their coins to increase in price as the supply dwindles, then nobody has an incentive to ever use them or spend them - just accumulate mindlessly
13:47:17 <merope> And when you take that to the end, you end up with one lone survivor with the only "usable" coins left - but nothing and nobody else to use them with. So by waiting until the end for the highest price, they turned all the coins completely worthless
13:47:42 <cornfeedhobo> that's a very fiat mindset. there are plenty of incentives to spend that money, I'm going to guess that you've just never had a reason personally to understand this.
13:48:11 <cornfeedhobo> if your spouse gets a life threatening illness and you need to cash out, i'm sure you wouldn't be worrying about this
13:49:36 <merope> Yes, but it will always be under the light of "I'm losing value doing this, but it's a loss I have to take"
13:49:49 <cornfeedhobo> no, it's only in that light because you have placed it there
13:49:57 <cornfeedhobo> gold stagnated at ~1200 for decades.
13:49:57 <merope> It deincentivizes cash flow - which is fundamental for a functional economy
13:50:39 <cornfeedhobo> that is the exact flaw everyone that follows this narrative falls into - this is not a panacea, and you need different types of money to hedge against the other.
13:51:21 <cornfeedhobo> another way to phrase the same thing is it incentivizes careful consideration of when it should be spent
13:51:39 <merope> I like Monero's disinflationary emission with a flat tail emission: it encourages people to use Monero as actual spending money, but without depreciating them so much that they can't hold their coins for a while if need be
13:52:05 <cornfeedhobo> oof. please lets not drift this into a comparison of monero and bitcoin. that is 1000% not what i'm doing here
13:53:26 <merope> cornfeedhobo: No, it's not "careful consideration": it's "how desperate is your need for fiat". Which is ironic, because it implies that you are still reliant on fiat money, and you are using crypto as a purely speculative asset to "tap into" when you need some cash
13:54:11 <cornfeedhobo> merope: you are applying only your narrative. if your mind is closed, this discussion is moot
13:54:17 <merope> Which is the exact opposite of the point of crypto, imo
13:54:57 <cornfeedhobo> merope: you have all the history of gold that proves you wrong. people buy and sell it all day, for reasons that you could not even hope to divine. it's extremely close minded.
13:55:34 <merope> You have not presented a single relevant argument about actual economical incentives except "what if you need urgent money for medical reasons"
13:55:53 <merope> Everything else has been a comment about my closed mindset
13:55:58 <cornfeedhobo> but that's really really far from where i started this, but has ironically also proved my point - folks coming into crypto _now_ are applying their limited world view and it's hilarious how far off the mark they are
13:56:40 <cornfeedhobo> because that wasn't the point. like an angsty teenager, you are trying to drive the conversation to the point you are interested in, but it's not the topic
13:57:44 <merope> "People buy and sell gold every day" - and guess why? Because they are speculating on its value. How many people do you still see carrying around a purse of gold coins to pay for stuff nowadays? None. Why? Because far more practical methods have been invented. Before that, they just didn't have a better way
13:58:39 <cornfeedhobo> merope: i wish you the best on your journey :)
13:59:24 <merope> And I hope you learn more about what the incentives are behind each component of cryptocurrenciew
13:59:43 <cornfeedhobo> Rucknium[m]: sorry got distracted, but you can read here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=342.msg4508#msg4508
14:00:31 <cornfeedhobo> merope: i've been around since the day btc was announced and even maintained one of the very first linux distro packages. thanks for the lesson though
14:03:44 <cornfeedhobo> i do apologize though. i sometimes forget how varied the audience is here.
14:04:10 <Rucknium[m]> cornfeedhobo: Thanks for the reference. The white paper emphasizes the medium-of-exchange use rather than store-of-value.
14:05:42 <nioc> I think that the size of monero's tail emission was based in part on current rate (%) of gold mining
14:07:02 <cornfeedhobo> indeed it does. i really got hung up on this in the first year, and was super annoying on irc trying to get my head around it. to merope's credit, they are right that the community was all-in on austrian economics, when satoshi was more focused on transactions. he does specifically mention gold mining in the white paper, so maybe his focus was a product of being a developer? worried about the hardest part
14:07:09 <cornfeedhobo> Rucknium[m]: ^
14:07:32 * cornfeedhobo shrugs
14:12:42 <merope> <cornfeedhobo> "endor00: i've been around..." <- Cool. Also irrelevant. Ideas are useless if you can't defent them, and appealing to authority because you may or may not have been around longer add nothing of value, per se.
14:12:42 <merope> Your only rebuttal to my arguments against Bitcoin's emission scheme were "you're being close-minded".
14:13:21 <merope> I was hoping to at least hear some counterargument, but oh well
14:14:52 <merope> Whether or not Bitcoin's whitepaper does or does not explicitly reference the things we were discussing, we can still examine the validity of the ideas behind it and draw conclusions and learn from it
14:18:27 <cornfeedhobo> merope: let me try to start over. I'm not responding to your argument because that's not where I started this. The fact is bitcoin has been analogous to gold from day one and I simply found it funny that people are thinking about it as a "re-branding". You can argue with someone else about economics.
14:23:12 <merope> I guess I was more interested in the actual implication of Bitcoin being akin to gold, than the history of the claim itself (and the fact that most crypto noobs have no idea about the history of Bitcoin and cryptos in general)
14:24:08 <cornfeedhobo> i've learned it can be discussed until the end of time, which is why i avoid the topic unless i really know the other person, sorry :)
14:36:07 <merope> A wise policy
14:36:44 <cornfeedhobo> on to more silly thoughts; we should sponsor a car in https://www.theadventurists.com/adventures/mongol-rally/  :p
14:40:52 <merope> You joke, but there has already been a Monero-sponsored racecar: https://reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/98uhtb/monero_sponsered_racecar_status_update/
14:40:59 <cornfeedhobo> lol
15:11:37 <cornfeedhobo> hah. we could make an bid thing for routes and plans. put some money behind being extra stupid.
15:31:15 <gingeropolous> <cornfeedhobo> merope: i've been around since the day btc was announced and even maintained one of the very first linux distro packages. thanks for the lesson though. >>> hey now hey now
15:31:44 <gingeropolous> sorry for the unnnecessary pings
15:31:46 <gingeropolous> carry on!
15:32:59 <cornfeedhobo> heh no worries. i was in the wrong there. i appreciate y'all :)
15:37:40 <gingeropolous> ugh i can't stand these practice python problems. i think i need some trance
15:37:59 <cornfeedhobo> taking a job interview or something?
15:38:16 <gingeropolous> nah some pre-reqs to start a masters in computer science
15:38:21 <cornfeedhobo> ahh
16:29:52 <gingeropolous> uggh my nemesis. having to do things i don't care about
16:31:00 <cornfeedhobo> true story though - those are the jobs that pay the best
16:31:26 <cornfeedhobo> getting a phd will be pretty pretty pretty awesome
16:35:59 <gingeropolous> im just going for masters
16:37:03 <gingeropolous> but who knows. perhaps a phd in computer science would be better than the one i already got. but thats getting absurd
16:38:01 <cornfeedhobo> you have a phd already?
17:22:27 <psionic> only thing I believe in this space over the long term are stablecoins period
17:22:53 <psionic> those moonboiz who saying btc never goes to 30k again will be crying very hard and pbly panicselling when it will
17:23:10 <psionic> till u dont hit that damn SELL button all you have is vaporware
17:29:16 <ComplyLast> curious that you believe the most on a type of asset that will be regulated to oblivion
17:39:55 <apotheon> How do you measure the moment when you *don't* do something that is not something can meaningfully do continuously?
17:40:07 <apotheon> s/can/one can/
17:40:31 <Mochi101> Proof of Rest
17:41:01 <apotheon> I think that only applies in case where you *can* do the thing meaningfully.
17:41:14 <apotheon> . . . which doesn't include selling.
17:41:25 <apotheon> Selling is a discrete, not continuous, act.
18:02:21 <great_taste> what are the decentralized exchanges people use these days?
18:02:58 <apotheon> I hear Bisq is popular.
18:03:37 <apotheon> There's something in development that is Bisq-derived and would include Monero as a first-class citizen, but I'm not sure how far along it is now or whether it's in use already.
18:08:30 <coco> cash, in the mail
18:16:41 <rbrunner> https://haveno.exchange/  currently under heavy development, as a rough estimate I would say maybe 1 year away from general release
18:21:38 <apotheon> I'd rather trade cash in person than via snailmail.
18:22:21 <apotheon> rbrunner: Yeah, I think Haveno is the thing I was trying to remember, based on Bisq.
18:22:46 <apotheon> rbrunner: Are you involved in Haveno dev?
18:24:58 <rbrunner> No, currently just watching closely
18:25:26 <apotheon> I'll try to remember you when I have questions, I guess.
18:26:24 <nioc> <rbrunner> as a rough estimate I would say maybe 1 year away from general release <<>> don't say that
18:26:32 <nioc> too long :D
18:26:41 <nioc> there is also localmonero
18:27:18 <rbrunner> :)
18:27:49 <nioc> when announced haveno had xmas this year as a target to open which I thought at the time was optimistic 
18:27:53 <rbrunner> Well, they are just know looking out for a competent dev that will rewrite the UI from the ground up. That won't be finished overnight, unfortunately.
18:28:24 <rbrunner> I am not sure they will ever release the Bisq-derived interface.
20:11:42 <psionic> ComplyLast there you said it the magic word: WILL
20:12:11 <psionic> I dont give a fuck about 5 years 10 years from now not even 5 months 10 months I care about whats gonna happen in the next 5-10 days
20:12:19 <psionic> to pump money left and right with lev
20:12:34 <psionic> hodling is for fucking losers i hodld through bunch of bearmarkets wont do that shit anymore
20:12:42 <psionic> aint have millions either here to make them
20:13:10 <psionic> but regardless i would not store it in nonstablecoins
20:13:19 <psionic> large part i would pbly just take out straight to fiat
20:16:13 <apotheon> I guess you have a high tolerance for capital gains taxes.
20:18:23 <cornfeedhobo> ^
20:19:26 <apotheon> . . . or you have great opsec management skills and aren't using KYC for *any* part of the trade operations at all.
20:19:38 <apotheon> . . . or something else that I shouldn't say.
20:21:29 <ndorf> anyone know when the next hard fork is expected to take place?
20:22:37 <nioc> soon™
20:22:43 <nioc> selsta: ^^^
20:23:15 <nioc> haven't heard any talk about dates 
20:23:19 <selsta> we don't have a date
20:23:27 <selsta> but I'm working on getting everything reviewed
20:31:38 <apotheon> There are dating sites for having a date.
20:35:09 <nioc> a date with Monroe
20:37:02 <Mochi102> I might be willing to go on a date if I'm offered enough private, anonymous currency.
20:44:29 <apotheon> Mochi102: good point
20:44:49 <apotheon> I could move to Japan and become a date-for-hire, payable in Monero.
20:45:39 <Mochi102> Step 2) ?
20:45:55 <apotheon> Hrm?
20:46:08 <Mochi102> Step 3) Profit!
20:46:11 <apotheon> I don't even know how to undertake step one.
20:46:26 <apotheon> "become a date-for-hire"
20:46:47 <Mochi102> I think in Japan that's pretty easy.
20:47:47 <Mochi102> I watched a YT video once where a guy does this and he never even speaks.
20:48:25 <apotheon> interesting
20:48:28 <apotheon> I'm not in Japan.
20:48:46 <apotheon> I don't plan to go there, either.
20:52:23 <Mochi102> boring
20:56:20 <cornfeedhobo> apotheon: i believe there are agencies there for that, assuming you are attractive enough
20:56:31 <cornfeedhobo> vice news did a whole thing on it
22:28:25 <ocb> apotheon: 's
22:29:07 <ocb> missclick, regarding 'high tolerance for capital gains' - i dont know the situation in other countries but here, for now - there is no system that checks this
22:30:31 <ocb> know a few people that sold from 50 up to 270 xmr to btc to fiat in the past 6 months, but tax gov didnt ask anything
22:31:41 <ocb> they are playing on the card of holding btc more than 2 years, by the law such do not need to pay taxes, and 50 nor 270 btc is a small amount
22:32:16 <ocb> here, the gov taxes on profits is 12%, but if you hold btc > 2 years - no need to pay them according to law.
22:34:45 <ocb> have been talking with one exchange recently, which has individual and business accounts, they've told individual can also use the account for profit making, so i wanted to make an irc bot for exchanging xmr-btc pair over api, just somewhat afraid of legal issues if somebody sells very dirty btc for monero. did anyone have issues with exchanges when a 3rd party exchanges dirty btc to xmr over your api?
22:35:49 <ocb> profit making - like 1% per trade would be ok, just to make buying xmr easier but legal issues scare me a bit.
22:39:19 <ocb> i am somewhat sad not being able to pay with monero on more places. i integrated monero couple of weeks ago in payment gateway and 23 merchants started accepting it for web hosting since. some have more, some have less transactions avg 40-50 txes a day.
22:50:59 <cornfeedhobo> ocb: usa requires one to always pay taxes. the only thing that changes after 12 months is the rate.
23:51:03 <psionic> apotheon i live in dubai zero tax 
23:51:23 <psionic> if your country is a dumass the solution is very simple there is a device called AIRPLANE
23:51:29 <psionic> you put your stinking ass in it
23:51:34 <psionic> get out on the other side
23:51:48 <psionic> your fucktard country can eat shit with their taxes what u left behind
23:52:19 <ocb> and how do you bring lets say 1mil in cash back with airoplane?
23:52:35 <psionic> whose talking going back?
23:53:09 <ocb> not all people have that option
23:53:24 <nioc> If you leave the US you still have to pay taxes
23:53:32 <ocb> as in, there's always an option but some are morally restricted
23:53:42 <psionic> give up your citizenship
23:54:14 <nioc> It's not as easy as that
23:55:09 <psionic> YEAH its easier not borning to be a fucking yank
23:55:10 <psionic> Rolling On The Floor Laughing
23:55:14 <psionic> aint my problem either
23:55:18 <ocb> you UAE are always smart-asses
23:56:22 <apotheon> psionic: Commercial airlines won't transport all the stuff I want to carry.
23:57:29 <apotheon> I'm pretty sure Dubai won't let me own some of the things I want to own, either.
23:59:00 <apotheon> Yeah, some UAE laws are worse than taxes.