00:00:30 <escapethe3ra[m]> * {max-width: 100%;}` and optionally `border: 1px solid silver; margin-bottom: 5px;` for some basic styles
00:08:00 <littlebobeep> anywhere else to buy XMR for fiat cash besides localmonero.co
00:11:16 <nioc> if you don't mind KYC there is kraken
00:11:56 <nioc> oh you said cash, so I guess not?
00:15:35 <DeanGuss> littlebobeep: I think you can do it on bisq?
00:16:14 <DeanGuss> https://cointastical.github.io/P2P-Trading-Exchanges/ might be some more on here
00:16:22 <littlebobeep> DeanGuss: Bisq doesn't support XMR?
00:16:37 <littlebobeep> DeanGuss: but I can send fiat cash to a Bisq seller for BTC?
00:16:55 <DeanGuss> You can at least post an offer to do that
00:17:15 <DeanGuss> or perhaps find your coincidence of opposite
00:37:33 <gingeropolous> escapethe3ra[m], naw i just googled it and used size=something or other
00:38:00 <Mochi101> best pdf cartoon ever gingeropolous 
13:05:34 <garth> ProtonMail constantly contacting Google on iOS app: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/uscbnz/protonmail_app_on_ios_constantly_talking_to/
13:05:48 <garth> Exhausting 
13:06:47 <merope> they use google services for instant notifications, don't they?
13:06:49 <garth> This iOS privacy app report has been a bonanza of discovering that literally every privacy centric app on iOS was utilizing Big Tech servers. Signal, Element, all of them 
13:06:57 <garth> Not on iOS 
13:07:15 <garth> If they want to use Apple for push notifications that’s fine by me
13:07:27 <merope> oooh - they ping google on the ios app? lol
13:07:32 <garth> Fuckers 
13:08:06 <garth> I posted the same thing to the Signal and Element subreddits and both of them fixed the issue 
13:08:18 <garth> It just is lame that we have to do this as customers
13:48:41 <gingeropolous> you should bill them
14:01:07 <Snipa> Google DNS I could almost see, AWS is curious though to be sure.
14:47:30 <gingeropolous> ugh. i feel like doing a "watch and response" video to this but ugh. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9nv0Ol-R5Q&t=30s
14:52:12 <nioc> a bonafide world renowned expert in cryptocurrencies 
15:17:34 <farzat> Why did he even wear the mask around min 10?
15:19:01 <farzat> Like did he think "Oh I am breathing way too easily, gotta wear that mask so that I can tire myself faster, while protecting myself from those pretty far away students"
15:21:42 <farzat> Ok at min 15 he was like "Ok I tired myself enough, I can take that mask off now"
15:25:59 <farzat> Btw is that thing he is drinking from alcohol or am I imagining things?
15:26:28 <farzat> I don't live in the US but I don't think such a thing would be allowed
15:26:45 <plowsof[m]> hopefully its not intentional, i remember using a qrcode generator for my wishlist, worked great. Turns out, under the hood it was pinging the google qr api ehh oops   
15:56:08 <belak_> farzat: what's wrong with drinking alcohol
15:56:37 <farzat> In lecture it makes you speak bs just like that guy
15:56:45 <belak_> that looks like a bottle of soda though
15:57:00 <farzat> Yeah I realized that as I moved on in the lecture
16:03:15 <farzat> Ok man, I feel like I could have agreed with the lecturer if the current system didn't just simply suck more
16:03:30 <farzat> Like yeah I know blockchains actually suck
16:03:47 <farzat> But the petrodollar sucks waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy more
16:04:00 <farzat> Same as PayPal et al
16:05:30 <farzat> But I can imagine, if I were someone who was actually advantaging from the bs in the system, I too would not see the point in cryptocurrencies
16:06:16 <farzat> Also there are too many shitcoins, bitcoin included
16:44:15 <belak_> farzat: you forget that paypal really doesn't suck for consumers
16:47:04 <moneromooo> Doesn't paypal scam people ? I've seen many complaints about "paypal took my money and I did nothing wrong".
16:47:42 <moneromooo> Granted, they're in a hard place, having to decide which person is right, but they seem to be ignoring evidence, assuming the reports are good faith.
16:48:14 <moneromooo> (and, granted again, with a lot of users, even a small percentage of fuckups means a large number of fuckups)
16:48:35 <belak_> moneromooo: those people are not consumers, but merchants
16:48:39 <moneromooo> But they still seem close to scammers. Decide one way and ignore all evidence because fuck it.
16:49:08 <plowsof[m]> localmonero advise people to account for being scammed from paypal 2/5 times , maybe even 3 xd
16:49:41 <belak_> the one-sidedness of dispute resolution is by design, as consumers are in an inherently worse off position than merchants
16:49:56 <belak_> plowsof[m]: yes, but paypal also forbids you from engaging in such transactions
16:50:20 <belak_> paypal doesn't take money from people and keep it, they'll freeze it for some period like 180 days and then close your account and release the funds
16:50:46 <belak_> alternatively, the consumer may reverse a payment to a merchant and the merchant might end up without their funds
16:50:51 <moneromooo> That seems like a stupid rule. It basically tells scammers "do this, and you can scam easy without issues"...
16:51:06 <belak_> moneromooo: it works both ways
16:51:20 <belak_> except selling items and not delivering them is a far more scalable scam than ordering items and reversing payments
16:51:20 <moneromooo> Does "release" mean give them back to the account holder ?
16:51:27 <belak_> yes
16:51:40 <moneromooo> Without asking for more shite as a precondition ?
16:52:13 <belak_> they might have AML/KYC obligations, but paypal isn't to blame for that
16:52:31 <moneromooo> Why are htey not, if they did not ask for it before ?
16:52:49 <belak_> they can't know what to ask for before you engage in transactions
16:53:09 <belak_> except for some very basic things yeah
16:53:11 <moneromooo> What is AML/KYC for you ?
16:53:26 <moneromooo> I mean, this isn't something that changes, right ?
16:54:06 <belak_> your transaction patterns play a large role with regards to the information they have to collect from you
16:54:25 <moneromooo> So they want more details basically ?
16:54:39 <moneromooo> ie, they might have name/address, and now want phone or something 
16:54:45 <moneromooo> For more certainty ?
16:54:58 <belak_> if they know that some transaction patterns are often associated with illegal activity, they are obligated to collect more details from you if they observe those patterns
16:55:20 <belak_> sure, but that's really basic
16:55:32 <moneromooo> That implies it's that kind of pattern that creates this, but from hte reports I've seen it doesn't seem to be like that. It's just random joes.
16:55:51 <moneromooo> Could be they're lying random joes though...
16:56:03 <belak_> random joes might also unknowingly engage in patterns that are commonly associated with fraudulent activities
16:56:12 <moneromooo> Nice.
16:56:20 <moneromooo> Then maybe their pattern checker is shit.
16:56:42 <belak_> unfortunately the legislation isn't exactly fair, so perfectly innocuous activities might be red flags
16:56:58 <moneromooo> Are you saying that if they did not do that, they'd be acting illegally ?
16:57:08 <belak_> this is correct
16:58:12 <belak_> the legislation does not place a simple set of requirements on them (e.g. you have to collect id photos, addresses and phone numbers from clients), but rather it requires them to do their best and take whatever actions necessary to prevent certain activities on their platform
16:58:17 <moneromooo> OK. I find it hard to believe that it would describe most of the complains I've seen, but at this point I'll file that as "someone is claiming so".
16:59:00 <moneromooo> I can't recall anything about a 180 day delay in the complaints, so it might be they get resolved after 180 days...
16:59:12 <belak_> I think the most common paypal complaint is "X sells something on $PLATFORM, buyer Y claims they did not receive product and charges money back" 
16:59:23 <belak_> seller X ends up without the money and possibly without the product
16:59:43 <belak_> if this happens often enough, paypal will decide that seller X is too risky to do business with and close their account.
17:00:23 <belak_> paypal is not legally obligated to act like this, but in practice the other option of letting seller X keep the money if buyer Y claims they didn't receive the product is worse
17:01:06 <belak_> (paypal will also close accounts of buyers who have suspiciously high dispute rates)
17:01:16 <moneromooo> IMHO, tThe two options that are... maybe not fair, but at least not... unfair... are "you sent it, your problem" (ie, we don't act as mediators) and "we decide based on evidence".
17:01:38 <moneromooo> Deciding on premade rules that are well known and dead easy to exploit is... cheap but unfair.
17:02:28 <belak_> For a scammer it's far easier to sell items to 100 people, take the money and run than to buy 100 items and reverse the payments.
17:02:29 <moneromooo> In any case, thank you for explaining.
17:03:08 <belak_> this is further complicated by the fact that delivery services tend to lose approximately 1% of parcels
17:03:16 <moneromooo> Fair point, yes. Maybe an argument of "lesser harm" in aggregate.
17:03:35 <moneromooo> Jesus. That's huge...
17:03:39 <belak_> so for physical goods any chargeback fraud disappears in an ocean of legitimately failed deliveries
17:04:58 <belak_> it seems fair for the person who is running a business to absorb this risk, rather than for the individual consumer
17:05:31 <belak_> for larger transactions there are some obvious protections, you can go to court or even call the cops
17:06:03 <moneromooo> I dunno, that argument is "who can likely take the hit and survive". I suppose it's "fair" in some societies, and "unfair" in others.
17:06:14 <belak_> A situation where consumers can't trust sellers has far worse economical effects than a situation where sellers can't trust consumers
17:07:09 <belak_> in a world where the system is tilted more towards the sellers, commerce simply falls apart
17:07:15 <moneromooo> OK, so your argument is that they are knowingly unfair to some people because at a macro level you can't see the people you fucked and the overall numbers are better. Fair assessment ?
17:07:37 <belak_> sure
17:07:38 <moneromooo> I'll rephrase: Overall numbers are better societally.
17:07:40 <belak_> it's sort of inherent
17:07:46 <belak_> even on darknet markets it ends up being like this
17:07:48 <moneromooo> OK. It's a valid argument.
17:08:04 <belak_> you buy drugs with monero, claim they didn't arrive, most of the time you will get your money back
17:08:09 <belak_> same as with paypal
17:08:54 <belak_> only those who have spent time building a reputation on such moderated platforms can get away with direct deals through their own websites
17:09:54 <belak_> chargeback fraud is the cost of trust
18:23:40 <farzat> Best way is gold way: You gave it, it is gone
18:24:03 <farzat> If you don't want the risk, escrows exist for that
18:24:26 <moneromooo> paypal is an escrow...
18:24:38 <farzat> Not really
18:24:55 <moneromooo> Well, true, since escrows look at evidence. Good point.
18:25:01 <farzat> An escrow would be something like Amazon
18:25:20 <farzat> They expect a tracking number
18:25:25 <moneromooo> Suddenly an escrow doesn't look that good anymore...
18:26:13 <farzat> 😅
18:27:02 <farzat> Well there are better examples
18:27:07 <farzat> Like localmonero
18:27:23 <farzat> Their job is basically advertising + escrow
18:27:56 <farzat> Just like Amazon when you think about it
18:28:05 <farzat> It is just that they do it better
18:28:29 <farzat> The problem with PayPal is not only that though
18:29:09 <farzat> PayPal has the power to deny its services to users
18:29:40 <farzat> It is one of the "intermediaries" at which you could be cut off
18:29:56 <farzat> Also it co-operates with Israeli agencies
18:30:03 <farzat> So that's a thing
18:36:07 <nioc> is there any agency that any financial service does not cooperate? 
18:36:18 <nioc> +with
18:38:27 <millican> Is there a setting in the monero-wallet-gui (linux) that lets it use more than ~4GB RAM before swithching to thrashing the hard drive for a few weeks?
18:39:06 <millican> There's still 8GB free, but I can't find the setting for it
18:39:18 <farzat> Well monero doesn't
18:39:28 <farzat> To my knowledge
18:39:37 <selsta> millican: can you rephrase?
18:45:16 <moneromooo> There's none. It's very inefficient to ask userland programs to configure the OS. You should tell the OS to behave better directly.
18:45:34 <millican> selsta: sorry, neighbor was at the door
18:47:05 <millican> selsta: the monero-wallet-gui program - unlike the other programs installed on the machine - will switch to using Swap (the hard drive) after consuming about 4GB of RAM. 
18:47:15 <millican> This becomes extremely slow.
18:47:36 <selsta> don't think this is intended behavior
18:47:46 <selsta> how did you install it?
18:47:57 <moneromooo> A program does not use swap. The OS uses swap. A program might use the disk for other things, but it doesn't seem to be that from what you're saying.
18:47:59 <millican> download and extract then run the executable
18:48:22 <moneromooo> The program doesn't even *know* when it's swapping. It's transparent, done by the OS.
18:48:45 <moneromooo> In theory it could know by timing some stuff, but... yeah. It's the OS.
18:49:28 <millican> I didn't give the OS, apologies. It's Debian (linux)
18:50:09 <selsta> are you syncing the blockchain?
18:50:10 <millican> So, I'm stuck with it unless I can figure out how to make Debian run this program the way it runs the others
18:50:14 <millican> selsta: yes
18:50:25 <selsta> that uses a lot of disk, but that's not related to swapping
18:51:07 <millican> hmmm. OK. I'll poke around with the OS for awhile and see if I can find anything. 
18:51:11 <millican> Thanks guys.
18:51:17 <moneromooo> The daemon handles the chain though, the gui wouldn't (though it might cause the daemon to access the chain).
18:51:19 <selsta> don't think there is anything you can change hete
18:51:54 <moneromooo> I guess we should ask: what makes you think monero-wallet-gui swaps (as opposed to, say, monerod) ?
18:52:15 <millican> good point. it could be monerod.
18:52:24 <millican> I'm looking at htop
18:52:25 <moneromooo> OK, that mkaes a lot more sense.
18:52:44 <selsta> syncing the blockchain will write a lot of data to disk and also read data for verification
18:52:47 <moneromooo> monerod has a huge mmap on the chain, which can be up to... I dunno 130 GB ?
18:53:15 <moneromooo> It'll read and write to that large file, and the OS will decide how to handle the writes,
18:53:45 <millican> the good thing is, i put this on a machine in the garage that I don't really use except to look up datasheets for things i'm working on
18:54:05 <millican> I'd just like to get it to be more efficient
18:54:10 <moneromooo> Do you have a SSD for the chain btw ? It makes a huge dufference vs spinning HDD.
18:54:28 <moneromooo> Also, once you're done syncing and i's just keeping up, it'll stop being so demanding.
18:54:34 <millican> It's an old school HDD. The SSDs are in the computers we use for work and stuff
18:54:42 <millican> moneromooo: that's encouraging
18:54:53 <moneromooo> If you can use the SSD just for syncing, and move back to HDD, it'll help a LOT.
18:55:20 <selsta> millican: what percentage did you sync? and also which version are you using?
18:56:31 <millican> selsta: about 29400 blocks remaining
18:56:36 <millican> version 0.17.3.1
18:57:09 <selsta> would recommend to update, otherwise it should be done soon
18:57:22 <selsta> also don't unplug your hdd during sync
18:57:35 <millican> If I update, is there a chance I'll have to download everything again from scratch?
18:57:53 <moneromooo> Not due to the update itself.
18:57:54 <millican> selsta: I do worry about power outages - we're getting into hurricane season
18:58:06 <millican> I'll update it. thanks.
18:58:08 <millican> again
18:58:12 <selsta> You can make a backup of the blockchain file
18:58:19 <moneromooo> If you have the space, you can always temporarily quit monerod.. yes, that ^
18:58:23 <selsta> if it gets corrupted you can rollback
18:58:33 <millican> sounds like a good idea.
18:59:04 <moneromooo> It's meant to be resistant to hard OS crashes, but in practice it still seems to suck :(
18:59:27 <selsta> windows is especially bad
18:59:45 <moneromooo> Yes, I never had a corruption and I sometimes kill -9. Fedora.
19:00:13 <millican> I'd guess that corruption is a risk with any hard drive crash, regardless of OS, but I'm no tech guy
19:00:34 <moneromooo> Well, if it's the hardware itself, yes, you're hosed.
19:19:31 <hyc> windows is just a lot less reliable than linux
19:20:08 <hyc> as well as lower I/O perf overall
19:23:13 <hyc> we have a commit upstream da0527ac75b811419b7007202799f96b2edb5aef that is supposed to improve windows write performance
19:23:27 <hyc> I don't think I ever merged it into monero's source tree
19:24:52 <hyc> https://git.openldap.org/openldap/openldap/-/commit/da0527ac75b811419b7007202799f96b2edb5aef
19:28:56 <hyc> the perf gain is supposed to be significant tho https://bugs.openldap.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9017
19:31:18 <sech1> "FlushViewOfFile seems to be an O(n) operation where n is the size of the file (or map)" whaaaat. Really?
19:33:02 <sech1> oops: https://github.com/SChernykh/p2pool/blob/master/src/block_cache.cpp#L135
19:33:33 <hyc> yes, it has to walk every page and check if it's dirty
19:34:58 <hyc> if you manually kept your own list of dirty pages and only flushed them, it would prob be faster
19:35:08 <sech1> well, at least it's done in the background worker thread in p2pool so not a big deal
19:35:30 <hyc> (but that assumes number of dirty pages is much smaller than file size)
19:35:45 <sech1> it is
19:36:50 <hyc> in WRITEMAP mode LMDB doesn't track indvidual dirty pages
19:37:06 <hyc> so msyncs /Flushes can get very slow on large DBs
19:37:50 <hyc> in default mode we do, but the point of writemap was to avoid extra memory allocations, such as those needed to maintain list of dirty pages
19:38:25 <hyc> (oh wait, that's LMDB 1.x. in 0.9 we still track dirty pages.)
19:51:15 <sech1> hyc apparently it's a long known "feature" https://ayende.com/blog/163298/with-a-little-knowledge-and-a-profiler-let-us-optimize
19:54:28 <hyc> heh yep.
19:56:22 <hyc> gingeropolous: did you ever get output from `mdb_stat -er` when explorer runs into READERS_FULL problem?
20:03:03 <sech1> hyc omg, BlockCache::flush() takes more than 0.5 seconds every time in p2pool :D
20:03:55 <sech1> false alarm, it was the first flush after sync. After that, it's 0.02 seconds
20:04:07 <hyc> heh
20:04:24 <hyc> fauting pages in first, before any can be flushed out
20:04:30 <sech1> even 0.01s
20:04:46 <hyc> that's the problem with using writable mmap, it always has to do a pagein on every page you touch
20:05:16 <sech1> I guess it's not critical for 432 MB file
20:05:25 <hyc> yeah, no big deal
20:57:25 <gingeropolous> hyc, i run mdb_stat -rr every 2 mins
20:57:34 <gingeropolous> and yeah it spits out a list of stuff