09:39:35 <lagoon93> hello
09:44:08 <apotheon> hi
14:50:25 <kenshir0> hi! one question about tail emission. I understand it's required to incentivize miners without having very high fees. But what about a middle ground? the basic idea would be something like this. 99% of fees are burned. You raise fee price until as average, you burn more coins that are created (i.e.: like 1% yearly deflation)
14:51:49 <kenshir0> or another example, if 0.6 xmr is created each block, you raise fees so at least, as an average, 0.7 xmr is burned per block.
14:59:07 <sech1> why burn in the first place? So that number can go up?
14:59:14 <kenshir0> yep
14:59:16 <sech1> current fee/tail emission structure works
14:59:21 <sech1> if it works, don't touch it
14:59:47 <sech1> I dunno, buy Dogecoin or Shiba if you want number go up
15:00:35 <kenshir0> more correctly, so value go up with time. 
15:00:39 <kenshir0> not number
15:01:24 <kenshir0> I think it should be clear now that crypto is not going to be widely used in daily payments, especially privacy coins, as it would be very easy to avoid taxes.
15:01:40 <sech1> if fees are 0.7 xmr per block, no one would use it
15:01:43 <kenshir0> so very small fees are less important that long term value
15:01:46 <sech1> it's like $1 per transaction
15:02:05 <sech1> small fees are more important than long term value
15:02:45 <sech1> xmr works equally well is it costs $1 or $1000
15:02:56 <kenshir0> yep, roughly it would be 1$ per tx
15:03:13 <kenshir0> if more people use monero, it could be less
15:03:23 <kenshir0> the more tx, the lower fees can be
15:03:36 <sech1> I don't want laser eyes and number go up people, Monero is a currency and is supposed to be used
15:03:39 <sech1> so low fees
15:04:34 <kenshir0> monero is not a currency, and no government will allow it. It's a cryptocurrency which allows private payments, not a currency.
15:04:38 <sech1> I'd rather see XMR=$100 and accepted in every store than XMR=$10,000 and accepted only for VPN and exchanges
15:05:27 <sech1> cryptocurrency is a currency
15:05:37 <kenshir0> I'm sorry, but you will never see Monero accepted in stores
15:05:38 <sech1> monero is cryptocurrency -> monero is currency
15:05:40 <sech1> logic
15:05:51 <kenshir0> neither Monero nor any other privacy coin
15:06:12 <kenshir0> if are lucky they will allow BTC and others, but privacy coins, you can bet that will never happen.
15:06:21 <sech1> I've already seen it accepted in stores
15:06:32 <kenshir0> because lack of regulation
15:06:36 <kenshir0> the taxman don't like it
15:06:45 <sech1> https://preview.redd.it/hvi1orxtgcr81.jpg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=007424c728a1952dfddfd5b747e28c0591965f9b
15:07:47 <kenshir0> I mean widely used. Regulations are coming.
15:08:12 <kenshir0> what government would allow it?
15:08:28 <kenshir0> something that allow people to easily avoid taxes?
15:08:29 <sech1> what government would allow cash?
15:08:38 <sech1> I mean, it can be easily used to avoid taxes
15:08:43 <kenshir0> cash destruction is coming too
15:08:53 <kenshir0> in some years we will not have cash
15:08:59 <sech1> I can pay my buddy $100 to do home repairs and get away without paying taxes!
15:09:12 <dsc_> the IRC police have been informed
15:09:34 <kenshir0> that are small amounts
15:09:36 <sech1> inform twitter police too while you're at it :P
15:09:54 <kenshir0> seriously, no goverment is going to legally allow it
15:09:57 <dsc_> i'm informing everyone!!
15:10:08 <kenshir0> at this point it should be clear
15:10:36 <sech1> Good thing is, Monero doesn't need permission from government
15:12:23 <kenshir0> sure, from private payments, but try to do it with a (legal) shop.
15:12:47 <kenshir0> monero doesn't need permission, but you need it for all other things of your business
15:13:42 <kenshir0> the importance of low fees come from the possibility of people doing daily payments with Monero. But I'm sorry my friend that will never happen.
15:13:55 <kenshir0> legally xD
15:17:36 <dsc_> kenshir0: maybe not in your country / region 
15:17:53 <dsc_> I can see it happen here, where cash is still considered normal
15:19:07 <kenshir0> I love this project, but I think the correct way in this matter is the Bitcoin way: security through high fees, and fast/cheap payments with a layer 2. That makes the coin gold and currency at the same time.
15:19:29 <dsc_> kenshir0: btw, in EU's current inflation environment it might actually implode EUR such that people will flock to alternatives (because they are otherwise locked out of their bank accounts)  
15:19:45 <kenshir0> (and limited supply of course)
15:20:03 <kenshir0> dsc_ yep, but the best for that is BTC I think
15:20:19 <dsc_> BTC is not suitable for payments becaues it is transparent, that is a risk
15:20:57 <dsc_> people will eventually prefer something that works better
15:21:11 <kenshir0> yep but the most important function of crypto is as a store of value. You can always swap each month for your national currencty to make payments.
15:21:41 <kenshir0> traditional money is already working fine to make payments. You only can to swap your store of value of choice for your national currency.
15:21:50 <dsc_> most important function of crypto is not store of value
15:22:00 <dsc_> its permission & anonymous payments
15:22:02 <dsc_> permissionless*
15:22:38 <kenshir0> we have that with cash too
15:23:32 <kenshir0> the government always allow a form of payment
15:23:38 <kenshir0> call it X
15:23:41 <dsc_> traditional money does *not* work fine to make payments, if I want to send money to sech1 and he is in Russia I can first spend 20minutes on the phone with my bank about why my account is temporarily locked
15:24:00 <kenshir0> what people need the most is a good store of value and not be robbed by the goverment through inflation.
15:25:47 <kenshir0> for international payments, average people can use a exchange. That cleans your personal history from blockchain.
15:26:19 <kenshir0> you can use coinbase or other to send any crypto to any country, and that comes from the wallet of the exchange. It's not your history.
15:26:25 <dsc_> exchanges are centralized, commercial parties with KYC that report your transactions just like any bank would
15:26:38 <kenshir0> but that's not my point, privacy is great, but I think Monero could be both things, store of value and private money.
15:27:14 <kenshir0> dsc_ I know, but average people is not going to use personal wallets and personally manage the backup of their keys
15:27:19 <kenshir0> they will use something easy
15:27:27 <kenshir0> and not everyone is tech savvy
15:28:32 <dsc_> they will learn it when it is the difference between having funds or not
15:29:25 <kenshir0> the government will not allow it, never. You can have all the world outside the system, but when you want to use it, it has to enter the system and you are detected. There is no way.
15:29:42 <dsc_> maybe your government
15:29:50 <kenshir0> sorry, I mean you can have all the money, not the world xD
15:30:04 <dsc_> you are from the US? or west-EU? goodluck!
15:30:17 <kenshir0> most goverments, if not all, will not allow it.
15:30:21 <kenshir0> yeah lol
15:30:42 <dsc_> 'outside the system' is overly dramatic
15:30:53 <dsc_> Monero is nothing more than a digital version of physical cash
15:30:58 <dsc_> thus it can be treated as such
15:31:12 <dsc_> (governance wise)
15:31:20 <dsc_> (or legal wise, whatever)
15:31:31 <kenshir0> as outside the system, I mean outside the surveillance of the government
15:31:40 <dsc_> yes I know what you mean
15:31:44 <dsc_> what is the difference with physical cash?
15:31:45 <dsc_> nothing
15:31:54 <dsc_> gov cannot track physical cash
15:32:10 <kenshir0> yep, that's why they are on their way to eliminate it
15:32:13 <dsc_> physical cash is 'inside the system'
15:32:15 <dsc_> right
15:32:20 <dsc_> but the US is
15:32:28 <dsc_> not necessarily 'the world is'
15:32:54 <kenshir0> as 'the world', I mean the vast majority of developed world
15:33:00 <dsc_> if I step outside right now, go to a restaurant, I have 50% chance they dont take a card
15:33:10 <kenshir0> maybe in Venezuela they use it, some time, because their money doesn't work. But that's an exception.
15:33:31 <dsc_> ??? :P
15:33:53 <kenshir0> for now, they accept cash, for now
15:33:58 <kenshir0> ^^
15:34:50 <dsc_> for EU, some big currency related problems are coming
15:35:14 <dsc_> people will start looking for alternatives
15:35:19 <dsc_> if it means having food or not
15:35:39 <dsc_> so 'goverment will never allow it' is nonsense
15:35:47 <dsc_> developed world or not
15:36:15 <kenshir0> sure, but the problem of euro is that it's losing value
15:36:23 <kenshir0> you can pay with euros without problems
15:36:32 <kenshir0> what people really need is a good store of value
15:36:35 <kenshir0> the rest are extras
15:38:19 <dsc_> europe has some bigger problems than just losing EUR valuation
15:38:57 <dsc_> whole industries will most likely shutdown and 'some sort of domino effect' may ensue
15:39:00 <sech1> dsc_ btw crypto is literally the only working way for me to send money to my Russian bank account
15:39:08 <dsc_> right
15:39:13 <Rucknium[m]> kenshir0: What people need to realize is that money is not an investment. Anyway, low tx fees have been a principle of Monero from the beginning and it is very unlikely to change. If you want to convince a privacy coin to have high fees, try elsewhere.
15:39:24 <sech1> the other working way is to take cash and physically go there
15:39:47 <sech1> "money is not an investment" finally someone said it
15:39:54 <sech1> money is money
15:40:01 <sech1> it's a value equivalent
15:40:16 <sech1> at best it should have the same value as it had a year, 10 years ago
15:40:17 <kenshir0> europe problems are unrelated to allow privacy coin payments on businesses.
15:40:21 <sech1> but not "number go up please"
15:40:40 <kenshir0> you are focusing all the time on the hope that will happen some day, but I think that's not going to happen.
15:40:52 <dsc_> kenshir0: they are very related.
15:40:54 <kenshir0> no easy tax-avoid mechanism will be allowed, never
15:41:19 <kenshir0> and for international payments to Russia or others, that works with all crypto
15:41:55 <kenshir0> and ocasional transfers allow for high fees if that gives you a good store of value properties.
15:42:13 <sech1> why high fees? low fees are better
15:42:13 <dsc_> < kenshir0> no easy tax-avoid mechanism will be allowed, never <== like starting a business?
15:42:33 <sech1> there are a million relatively easy ways to avoid taxes
15:42:40 <sech1> or I'd rather say "optimize" taxes
15:42:43 <moneromooo> Like not earning anything.
15:42:44 <sech1> fully legal, mind you
15:42:49 <kenshir0> high fees to allow for limited supply and keep security only with fees
15:43:08 <kenshir0> normal people don't know stock market, they need a good store of value
15:43:12 <sech1> security only with fees? That's never been done and it won't work
15:43:39 <kenshir0> crypto can be store of value and money, a creation of historical importance.
15:44:24 <kenshir0> sech1 yep, there are ways to "optimize" taxes, but privacy coins allow you to not declare a cent xD
15:44:41 <sech1> that doesn't mean avoid taxes
15:44:52 <sech1> if you don't declare anything and go buy a house, there will be questions
15:45:08 <sech1> how do you think it all worked when only cash was around?
15:46:01 <kenshir0> I don't know anyone what buys a house with cash
15:46:06 <kenshir0> maybe that happens, but never see it
15:46:26 <kenshir0> most people pay it through bank, with small payments each month
15:46:30 <kenshir0> all very controlled
15:47:18 <kenshir0> if you check bitcoin, each block earns lot of money only in fees
15:47:21 <sech1> I asked about "when only cash was around"
15:47:27 <sech1> not about who you know _today_
15:47:33 <kenshir0> so "only fees" security is perfectly possible
15:47:37 <sech1> how did countries collect taxes 100 years ago?
15:47:54 <sech1> "only fees" security is perfectly possible <- that requires a mathematical proof
15:48:11 <sech1> so far I've only seen papers about future Bitcoin instability
15:48:21 <kenshir0> sech1 but what happened 100 years ago doesn't apply because they didn't have the surveillance mechanism that we have today
15:48:22 <sech1> when the last Bitcoin is mined
15:48:30 <moneromooo> https://nitter.net/UOLNoticias/status/1564596840997208067  <- there's one
15:48:48 <kenshir0> sech1 go to any BTC block explorer, you can see it yourself
15:49:01 <kenshir0> they earn more value per block with fees, that a  monero block including tail emission
15:49:15 <sech1> Block explorer is not a proof
15:49:31 <sech1> when the base subsidy is 0 and only fees are left, it will be highly unstable
15:49:43 <kenshir0> but you can compute it today
15:49:44 <sech1> most of transactions will be done on L2 and miners will get 0 from them
15:49:55 <kenshir0> with today's usage, you earn lot of value, only with fees
15:50:06 <sech1> "value per block with fees" not fair comparison, BTC costs 150 times more
15:50:11 <kenshir0> as Satoshi said, the only problem is that BTC have little usage after last BTC is mined.
15:50:26 <sech1> it will have little usage
15:50:27 <kenshir0> but that only will happen if the coin is dead
15:50:31 <sech1> because no one wants to pay high fees
15:50:35 <sech1> everyone will move to L2
15:50:41 <sech1> base layer will be left without revenue
15:50:45 <sech1> hashrate will fall
15:51:00 <sech1> millions of ASICs shut down, but ready to attack (for the right price)
15:51:15 <sech1> don't say I didn't warn you
15:52:07 <kenshir0> this would be another long debate, but switching to a modern BFT PoS like Casper (eth2) the problem disappears forever. But anyway, look today, Ethereum has very cheap layer 2, and there is lot of TX in layer 1
15:52:16 <sech1> it's not a debate, it's a fact
15:52:29 <sech1> capped supply and 0 emission is not stable and vulnerable in the long run
15:52:37 <kenshir0> what proof do you have that it will be different with BTC that is being today with Ethereum
15:52:51 <kenshir0> base layer is used anyway
15:52:54 <sech1> Ethereum is not capped
15:53:01 <kenshir0> ethereum have several ultra-cheap layer 2
15:53:15 <kenshir0> I'm talking about the layer 2 problem you are telling
15:53:23 <kenshir0> it's unrelate with coin supply
15:53:26 <kenshir0> d
15:53:37 <sech1> it's related to coin emission
15:53:43 <sech1> which will be 0 if supply is limited
15:53:49 <sech1> miners will not have guaranteed income
15:53:53 <sech1> and that is a problem
15:54:04 <kenshir0> what I'm trying to say is that layer 1 keeps being used
15:54:14 <kenshir0> so the danger you see it's not happening
15:54:33 <sech1> It will happen: https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~arvindn/publications/mining_CCS.pdf
15:54:35 <kenshir0> and the proof is that ethereum fees are ultra-high, and people keep using it
15:54:43 <sech1> "keeps being used" is not "forever and ever" guarantee
15:54:54 <sech1> in the long run, it will happen and I just linked you to the mathematical proof
15:54:57 <kenshir0> go to an ethereum block explorer, check fees per block
15:55:10 <sech1> you seem to not understand
15:55:10 <kenshir0> even with several layer 2 working very fine (Polygon, Optimism)
15:55:22 <kenshir0> layer 1 still is used, with high fees, which feed the miners
15:55:38 <sech1> _today_ it is being used
15:55:53 <sech1> 10 years, 20 yers in the future, no one knows what market conditions will be, what usage will be
15:56:07 <sech1> it is possible base layer transactions will be almost non-existent
15:56:22 <sech1> there's no _guarantee_ of future income and stability for miners if emission is 0
15:56:37 <kenshir0> that can totally prevented, with 100% security, switching to any modern BFT based Proof of Stake consensus
15:56:41 <sech1> tail emission gives this mathematical guarantee
15:57:16 <kenshir0> which I also propose, but that would be too much in the same conversation.
15:57:21 <sech1> Proof of Stake? How much of total ETH emission was pre-mined? Something around 70%?
15:57:30 <sech1> devs can literally own the network after switch to PoS
15:57:42 <sech1> and keep owning it forever because of how PoS works
15:57:47 <sech1> PoS = piece of shit
15:57:51 <kenshir0> but here comes the best part
15:57:54 <kenshir0> this is open source
15:58:01 <kenshir0> community can easily fork if that happens
15:58:18 <kenshir0> so whales don't do anything evil, if they know what's good for them
15:58:39 <kenshir0> and if that happens, that's good news, because the massive coin destruction makes every holder richer than before
15:58:59 <kenshir0> (hard fork burns the coins of attackers if they own so much)
15:59:13 <kenshir0> note that using commitees, you need much more than 51% to attack the network
15:59:29 <kenshir0> that's a suicide of historical proportions.
15:59:49 <kenshir0> with BFT, there is absolute finality, so security is a problem of the past
16:00:16 <kenshir0> we will have an example working in a few wees with Ethereum 2
16:00:20 <kenshir0> (weeks)
16:02:02 <kenshir0> anyway, thx for the conversation, have to go :)