10:25:44 It is such a bad look for (members of) the Core team to file an application for a trademark of the Monero name. I hope we can receive some clarification about this. 10:25:59 https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/730 10:26:17 name and logo* 10:34:45 If it is needed to protect against yet more assholes, I wonder if it'd be feasible to assign the trademark to something like the FSLC. 10:35:59 But yes, a US company stinks. Comes with double implicit baggage. 10:38:53 I'm sure thankful_for_today would've loved to have protected himself against assholes with a few trademarks 10:39:08 "I am personally dismayed that the Core team has taken this step" Isn't it a bit early to be dismayed already, knowing next to nothing yet about background, motivation, etc.? 10:40:14 no it's not. doing this without any public discussion/announcement is already a breach of trust. 10:41:04 IIRC they said years ago they tried (though failed at the time). 10:41:39 Due to yet other assholes named something similar making legal noises. 10:41:59 an eye for an eye keeps the eye doctor away sort of deal :-) 10:42:37 Yeah, ok, it's all your right to be dismayed. Even several times a day, if needed. And strongly, at times ... 10:43:01 rbrunner, as it is your right to not be. I did say "personally", right? 10:43:21 Agreed. 10:44:16 Maybe a public discussion would have been dangerous, giving people ideas who would try to preempt? 10:45:38 who would these people be, who could believably claim "ownership" over Monero's name and likeness? 10:45:41 I would speculate that for ever "Core flat-out breached our trust" I can come up with a story "That was kind of reasonable, given the circumstances". All speculation, of course. 10:46:50 It's not like after grabbing the tm they made anohter project called close to monero without warning people it's not the same. 10:47:05 They've been trustworthy so far AFAICT. 10:47:13 and while we're at it, who owns the trademark to the Bitcoin name and logo? 10:48:14 I can imagine Roger Ver trying to register them 10:48:15 You'd have better luck in a bitcoin channel. 10:48:36 it's a rhetorical question... I don't think there's an owner 10:49:46 BITCOIN’ is trademarked in the United Kingdom but is not currently trademarked anywhere else in the world. When news broke that BITCOIN was a registered trademark, it caused a huge debate. BITCOIN is trademarked in the United Kingdom until 22nd December 2027 (trademark number UK00003279106), 10:49:52 moneromooo: they wouldn't need to make another project. they could just push whatever changes they wanted to the existing one and let the rest of us pick a new name 10:50:06 They already can. 10:50:17 right. but without the protections afforded by a trademark. 10:50:58 That's such a realistic scenario, Core Team against rest of Monero devs, in a court, where, in the US? 10:51:35 Probably Twatter. 10:51:53 And Core Team wins, of course, because TM, and we are all in deep shit. 10:53:38 That's a win/win situation, right ? Whatever happens, monero wins. 10:54:38 But then maybe *I* won't receive my rightly-earned lambo, but Fluffypony and gang. 10:55:58 You'd receive your rightly-earned fluffypony ? 10:56:19 Anyway, being attentive is good, I am sure that issue by geonic will turn out a net positive for the project. Just not yet clear how. 10:56:44 Now that's a very well penned line. 10:58:56 aren't all issues full of possibilities when first opened? you have a fruitful imagination, it might even be the source for another fictional story. 11:00:31 maybe the scenario you described is worth exploring in a fictional format. surely the directors of that corporation contemplated being in a US court before they signed the papers to form it 11:02:07 * moneromooo imagines ArticMine brandishing a paper registration of the trademark in court, thereby smiting the Meanero plaintiffs... 11:02:28 You shall not pass (off)! 11:02:30 aw shit, now I want to watch '12 angry men' again 11:03:54 HAHAH 11:03:57 But yeah, company. Which means it ever goes bankrupt, its assets go to whatver asshole buys it for peanuts. 11:04:15 Companies are never to be trusted. For this reason and other.s 11:05:36 they tend to exploit the assets they acquire for financial gain... or just squat on them until an opportunity arises 11:07:02 but the Monero Distribution Corporation sounds so warm and fluffy, I'm sure they would never do that 11:07:46 the project and logo is released under an open source license, how does a trademark mean others can't use it anymore? 11:08:55 yeah, that's a good question. what's the benefit of a trademark if it does nothing to prevent others from using it? and is the trademark owner allowed to change the license? 11:09:32 I'm not a lawyer, but surely whoever filed those trademark applications consulted one. maybe they'll enlighten us. 11:09:35 Of course not. 11:09:58 Scratch that. 11:10:14 Owning the trademark offers no change to your ability to change the licence. 11:10:35 I'm just trying to figure out what the risk is, and how we wouldn't have the same risk if a malicious person instead of the core team would register a monero as a trademark. 11:11:26 AFAIK, same risk, except that the core team will have an easier time showing they're "legitimate". 11:11:48 It's both a plus and a minus, depending on whether you're on their side :) 11:13:44 Maybe it'd be possible to have that company issue some kind of binding waiver, though how to write it seems non trivial. 11:14:07 It's been done for patents by, IIRC, redhat. 11:14:23 so no benefit, except the bad optics of an entity seemingly in control of Monero's name and logo 11:14:42 You misunderstood, then. 11:15:17 The waiver is not "we waive all rights", more like "we'll only use defensively". 11:15:52 Basically, assert prior use of the mark if some jerk comes later and tries to prevent that use. But not try to prevent another's use. 11:16:08 wasn't referring to the waiver, but this "AFAIK, same risk, except that the core team will have an easier time showing they're "legitimate"." 11:17:08 I think the core team is more likely to be on our side than some random asshole wanting to annoy us. 11:17:47 fwiw, I prefer to look at it in terms of "for decentralization or not" rather than "for or against the core team" 11:18:17 You'd have to get the US congress to pass a law allowing decentralized registration first. 11:18:19 no argument about that, it's the lesser evil for sure. but do we want that dubious protection? 11:19:07 not registering a company and filing a trademark application is also a viable alternative 11:20:05 It's nice to have more tests, but the more you have, the more tme it takes to test the damn thing -_- 11:20:32 Especially whrn it's python, which takes an hour before it points out a fucking typo a compiler would have spotted from the start... 11:21:23 We need a company so that we can codesign the macOS GUI, that's the only way to get a developer account with Apple. 11:21:29 * moneromooo strangles python, which presumably is used to the strangling going the other way round 11:21:42 And the same applies for Windows cert from what I know. 11:22:03 we've had another company for that though, no? this one was only registered a year ago 11:22:43 strangle perl, not python 11:22:52 please refrain from strangling python 11:23:05 * moneromooo bashes perl against the Wall 11:23:20 he-he 11:23:35 how to strangle python: https://nitter.net/closecalls7/status/1563495388304515073