02:30:35 Men, learned helplessness is a damn of a disgrace. 02:30:41 Sad to see people like that. 02:51:47 ❓ 02:52:01 ! 07:35:22 guys so, if i buy monero from an exchange that i got kyc'd on and then i send that monero to my wallet obv. now my wallet is "what i call, tagged" 07:40:02 can the exchange then forever after see my wallets TX? i understand they cant see the amounts but can they see transactions coming and going in and out my wallet 07:49:29 Tag: (No tag assigned) <--- also whats this? 07:49:40 in the monero-cli walleet 07:50:01 s/waleet/wallet 07:51:03 wormrobot, no... they can't 07:51:21 wormrobot: It's only linked to the address that received the transaction. 07:52:25 wormrobot: If someone comes up with a way to identify a whole wallet from one transactional address, that would be a huge fucking cryptanalysis win, in a way that could make a cryptographer's whole career. 07:52:29 so subaddresses fix this issue? 07:52:45 That's how it's supposed to work in Monero, yeah. 07:53:00 someone correct me if I'm mistaken (e.g. Mochi101) 07:53:37 apotheon: im not a cryotographer cuz im not good at math but it interests me and yes if someone was able to crack math in that way then is a problem for sure. 07:53:46 This is basically the reason that all the most basic opsec advice for Monero says to use a different address for every transaction. 07:54:09 if an exchange deposits XMR to your wallet at 73468675367, it can't see you move it out from 73468675367 07:54:21 yeah, that too 07:54:49 apotheon: Ahh very good, also noticed on the monero-cli that it says "(Used)" after an address was used for a TX 07:55:31 Mochi101: ahhh very intersting, because this has been buggin my mind lately 07:55:50 why does the wallet prevent me from emitting a TX before it reaches 10 confirms 07:55:55 would the other nodes reject it? 07:56:06 s/intersting/interesting 07:56:13 for anti-DoS purposes or something 07:56:29 mawk, for privacy 07:56:36 corellation attack or something 07:56:48 correlation attack or something 07:56:52 ah 07:56:59 but could I override it if I wanted? 07:57:01 apotheon: Is it worth it to even use different addresses in cases were you are receiving monero from the same source on a regular basis (i.e. making weekly purchases on kraken and having them sent to the same wallet)? I understand giving out different address to different people, but seems overkill if you keep monero from the same source from my understanding. 07:57:04 Mochi101: amazing train of thought 07:57:17 wormrobot: I could offer some more advice for covering your trail in terms of opsec. 07:57:26 yeji-weji[m]: I always have the same address to receive from kraken 07:57:31 apotheon: pls! 07:57:33 because it's a pain to add new addresses 07:57:50 how so? 07:57:55 address new 07:57:58 in the CLI 07:58:09 apotheon: I'm a privacy and security researcher / wannabe c++ dev 07:58:18 lol 07:58:20 I think he means it is a pain to add a new withdrawal address on kraken 07:58:24 ahhh 07:58:27 yeah ok 07:58:32 yeji-weji[m]: If the source is going to know about it anyway, then the only benefit for different addresses is that the logs kept by that person's wallet wouldn't show transactions with the same address, so if some bad actor got access to that person's wallet logs it wouldn't look like an ongoing relationship between the two of you. 07:58:49 yeji-weji[m]: . . . as far as I'm aware. I don't claim to know everything about this. 07:59:11 Mochi101: thats how i found crypto and cryptography and then fell in love with the early days of cryptography and the cypherpunk movement etc.. 07:59:37 In the case of something like a centralized exchange, they intentionally aggregate your addresses in their DBs, so don't expect using different addresses to help there. 08:01:14 wormrobot: When you want to keep your monero stuff as clean as possible, it's not a terrible idea to move it around a little bit from time to time, even just sending from one address on a given wallet to another. Don't just move the same quantity around a lot, though: move a different amount each time to avoid someone noticing a lot of transactions of effectively the same quantity, which might 08:01:20 be used for some kind of analysis. 08:01:45 Mochi101: it's a pain to add new address in kraken 08:01:47 my current way of obfuscating my TX's and wallets is to first buy BTC then Xchng for xmr using subaddresses 08:01:49 I meant 08:02:21 wormrobot: You might be better off doing that with Litecoin than BTC. Transactions are much faster and cheaper. 08:02:53 apotheon: Great point yes i think that might be the next move 08:02:59 Where you go to exchange between cryptocurrencies will have an effect on how likely someone is to realize you own Monero, if that's a concern. 08:03:27 apotheon: the xchange i use to swap is decentralized 08:03:39 fake email sign up etc.. done 08:04:24 I suppose a basic example to illustrate the risk of re-using the same address would be something like: 08:04:24 KYC Exchange (i.e. Kraken) knows one of your addresses. 08:04:25 Else where in what you think is an anonymous environment you give you out your address (same one that Kraken knows). 08:04:25 If someone with the ability to see Kraken's history and they also stumble upon your address is this other context.. They can connect the dots and identify you. 08:04:28 I kinda think Litecoin is the best choice for that. It benefits from strong ease of finding people who will deal in it, because it got into the game early enough to be supported by almost as many payment processors as BTC, plus it's fast and easy, and there's even a newly added MimbleWimble based privacy mechanism -- not comparable to Monero, but better than anything on BTC mainnet. 08:04:53 wormrobot: good plan, regarding DEXes 08:05:54 s/is/in/ 08:06:58 yeji-weji[m]: Yeah, actually a more interesting way to frame that (I think) is if you do a deal with someone outside of Kraken, and some bad actor is surveilling that person, then that bad actor gets access to Kraken logs, that person can check whether your address is in those logs, find out who you are, then go to your house and beat your knees with a pipe until you give up your wallet seed and 08:07:04 password. 08:07:25 kinda reverse the approach: individual -> Kraken, vs. Kraken -> individual 08:08:13 and that is why you stay strapped 08:08:18 that too 08:08:43 apotheon: This is great knowledge btw 08:08:51 I guess I never thought about in that reverse direction 08:09:28 Don't do the movie thing with gun holsters in obvious places at home. You don't want an intruder arming with your guns while sneaking around. Use bolted-in-place quick-access gun safes, maybe, if you want to do that. 08:09:33 apotheon: i thought i was being paranoid.. but i see that you understand my point of view 08:09:38 wormrobot: glad to help 08:10:57 I've been in national security (at the "tip of the spear" so to speak), private security, computer security, privacy consulting, and software security, so I get the need to know about this kinda stuff. Broadly, that'd be several fields of both physical and information security, I guess. 08:11:35 I suppose the private security thing is deceptively simplified, now that I think about it. 08:11:46 Anyway, some amount of paranoia is practical. 08:12:29 Don't expect me to be a serious expert in any of those, at this point, but I still think like someone who knows/cares about security. 08:14:43 apotheon: i started out with info sec abroad and it lead me here, im young, im in my early 20's not gonna dox myself but yes i started with info sec and learning about computer systems and messing with different os's and learning their file system structure etc.. then messed around with wifi hacking and computer hacking in general then, decided to learn c++ started and now im here lulz 08:14:50 yeji-weji[m]: If you're also concerned about state actors, they'd be able to track you down and black bag you even more surely than the guys who just want to steal your bytes, but at least they might conceivably be bogged down by red tape, maybe, if you're lucky. 08:15:43 So if you want to use a non-kyc decentralized exchange to obtain monero though, most people are having to come into it with other existing crypto right to swap for monero? Is that how it works? 08:15:43 If so - wouldn't you want to acquire this say bitcoin or litecoin in an anonymous manner before hand? 08:15:50 The username I have here pretty much "doxes" me, sadly. I'm too fucking lazy to go fully pseudonymous for casual discussions like this. 08:16:59 yeji-weji[m]: yep, DEXes require some kind of non-fiat digital currency for exchange 08:18:09 yeji-weji[m]: You could reasonably cultivate friends who are into cryptocurrencies and, at some point, offer to buy some off of them at a small premium, then use that to exchange for Monero on a DEX, though. Just make sure you know what cryptocurrencies a given DEX supports so you know whether what someone else has is something you'd want. 08:18:52 yeji-weji[m]: The person with whom you're trading would know who you were, but they wouldn't have KYC digital paper trails in a one-stop shop for feds and security crackers to ransack. 08:19:34 apotheon: hahahah 08:21:16 Oh, by the way, if you haven't used Litecoin before, you can buy some just for swapping to Monero-or-whatever, and resolve to never use Litecoin for anything else, to ensure that you never sell it off, which makes it much harder to trace your Litecoin activity in a way that leads to knowledge of whether you used it to buy other cryptocurrencies or just spent it or lost it or whatever. 08:21:57 also, follow the rule of not spending in the same quantities that you buy when trading to another cryptocurrency, if you can avoid it 08:23:29 I wonder if I'll disappear in the next few years. I could get tortured to death for info or black bagged; I could move to Mexico and change my name; I could just stop being "apotheon" online in any significant way . . . 08:23:33 hmm 08:23:50 The last option seems like the best. I should really try to stop being such a rube about my online identity. 08:24:47 It's just . . . so goddamned much work to keep an identity strictly separate. I've managed to screw that up twice when in the early stages of testing my ability to keep things clean. 08:26:52 If you really care about privacy that much the only way to do it and to not touch the internet. You can do what you can at the blockchain level/exchance and all that, but then you have to worry about your OS / hardware / network activity patterns being picked up can go all day with it really 08:27:33 And we are just having fun hypothetical technical discussion that is educational 08:27:53 the only reason why i use monero is so my family members can't track my txs so that they don't know what i bought them for christmas 08:28:12 😅 08:30:07 I like how literally everything is trying to be KYC these days. You buy something at the mall and they are programmed to ask you what your email and address and name is to get you on their reward program/newsletter etc. If you are not paying attention, you sometimes just give it out because you feel like you have to. 08:30:43 I think everyone has to at least fight some of the battles. But, it is going to be impossible to win them all. 08:31:04 apotheon: on the topic of online indentity, depending on what your doing online just use a new identity everytime. Thats my way of thinking and usually what i do everyday lulz 08:31:26 apotheon: and no i havent used litecoin before 08:31:49 I basically only get little trickles of Monero to buy things right away when I want to support a vendor with Monero instead of USD, or when I want to give some away to someone in the process of teaching them about Monero. I'm so damned overcautious about my privacy with it that I haven't actually gotten into collecting it in any quantity for general use or anything like that. 08:33:06 I'm pretty sure litecoin is still generally cheaper and faster to send than bitcoin, so it is a great ideal candidate to use as an intermediate crypto. 08:33:15 I think I'll start telling vendors "I only have a work address, and I'm not supposed to give that out for this kind of stuff." It makes the conversations less awkward, and in a way it's true anyway. 08:33:40 or just give 'em myname⊙ec 08:33:49 I'll tell them I am homeless and don't do email 08:33:57 the email equivalent of giving your phone number as 867-5309 08:33:59 yeji-weji[m]: buying gifts for your family members in monero <--- lol 08:34:39 specifically "eight six seven [pause] five three [pause] zero nine" 08:36:05 wormrobot: The online identity thing can eventually get correlated if things like browser fingerprints match up, too. For a clean break, you almost need different computers with wildly different setups and stuff like onion routing and VPNs for all communications. 08:36:56 yeji-weji[m]: Yes, Litecoin is *fantastically* faster and cheaper for transactions than BTC. It's pretty much in the same ballpark as Monero. 08:37:41 "I only use Monero as bait when I go fishing. I do that with ghost guns, too." 08:40:45 hahaha 08:41:32 quick question about my cli wallet, when i check my tx in/out it says they are in unlocked? 08:41:59 that's better than them being locked 08:42:33 Right now, BTC seems to be somewhere in the vicinity of a buck and a half, which is kinda on the low side since the whole COVID thing started. Litecoin and Monero are either higher than I expected (but both under five cents) than I expected or misrepresented on these charts I just found. 08:43:47 mawk: true i believe that just shows the fact the 10 block confirmation has happened and they coins have fully arrive and are spendable 08:44:03 yeah 08:44:23 yep 08:45:13 Other wallets may refer to "locked" as "unconfirmed", or they may refer to "unlocked" as "available". It's a UI decision, how to frame that. 08:45:29 apotheon: yes i have been hearing things about xmr/btc charts and how monero is peforming better than btc 08:45:51 apotheon: yes now it makes sence great! 08:46:10 monero has gained a lot of ground back on the btc-xmr charts this year 08:46:33 Oh, yeah, Monero seems to (mostly) just keep gradually gaining value percentage against BTC, and the fact it's cheaper to transact with Monero might be one of the reasons for that. 08:46:52 and it is actually used 08:46:56 right 08:47:31 There's a stat - I forgot where I saw it but there is a record amount of total bitcoin that has not been transacted in the last 6 months or something along those lines 08:47:32 for what though 08:47:33 Bitcoin being slow and expensive to use exerts some drag on its use. 08:48:09 100% of the uses I have had for monero would make my mom sad 08:48:59 mawk: I've seen Monero used for fountain pens, beef jerky, t-shirts, web hosting, gun parts, conference tickets, VPNs . . . 08:49:32 You can also donate Monero to the Copyfree Initiative. (disclaimer: I may have ties with the CI.) 08:50:06 my main use has been splitting bills with friends.. not super substantial but it is something 08:50:32 has anyone been able to find an in person business that accepts monero? 08:51:30 not yet 08:51:43 I was planning to start an online ammunition vendor shipping to people's doors, but I wanted to get an FFL to do it so that I could get sweet bulk discounts and not look legally sketchy doing it, where I'd take Monero payment to sell and ship, but when I found out some of the conditions of FFLs I decided I need to set up a separate business property before I get an FFL to avoid some uncomfortable 08:51:49 regulatory crap. 08:52:02 yeji-weji[m]: That's an excellent use of Monero. 08:52:34 I don't know of brick and mortar businesses in my area that take Monero. 08:52:56 You need a separate property? In my state it seems like on every other block there is a FFL setup in their garage or something akin to that 08:53:16 I guess that might not be your living situation so 08:53:32 this is what im thinking.. i want the states to regulate the shit out of crypto again and that would scare the shit out of people and finally realize how public ledgers are worthless and not "bulletproof==monero" 08:53:43 I'm thinking of trying to convert the baristas at my favorite coffee shop to taking Monero tips. I was working on my previous favorite coffee shop's owner to get him set up to take cryptocurrencies (notably Monero), but he ended up selling the business, so that didn't go anywhere. 08:53:52 a lot of online drug markets take monero, some take only monero 08:54:06 some take btc and monero but warn about the lack of privacy of btc 08:54:22 yeji-weji[m]: You don't NEED a separate property. I'm just not willing to give the ATF the "authority" to search my home any time of day or night whenever its agents decide they should do so. 08:54:34 oh, that is lame 08:54:49 especially if you have pets 08:54:56 If I use a separated business location (even if it's on my property but a separate building from my home), they can only search *that*. 08:55:15 Yeah, if I had a dog they'd shoot it. That's what LEOs do when searching houses. 08:55:32 apotheon: my barber takes btc and i was thinking about talking to him about taking monero also next time i go 08:56:07 if they already take bitcoin it should be an easy convincing to take monero 08:56:15 mawk: Yeah, drugs might be the fastest-moving market for Monero. It's possible it even outweighs the mass of currency trading with Monero. 08:56:20 yeji-weji[m]: no yes exactly! 08:56:27 probably yeah 08:56:30 they make big money on these sites 08:56:54 apotheon: is kinda creepy you mentioned that because i thought about this earlier today 08:56:55 I don't want to look but I probably spend around 10 000€ me alone on these 08:57:23 wormrobot: Yeah, if he already takes other cryptocurrencies he's probably quite vulnerable to a pitch. You might want to have some ideas in mind for how he could get started accepting Monero, from a technical perspective, though. 08:57:35 wormrobot: That'd probably help lubricate the conversion. 08:58:18 i only smoke weed i dont do other drugs so drug markets accepting monero doesnt interest me 08:58:24 I've never partaken of an illegal recreational drug. Weird, I know. 08:59:28 apotheon: no yes i always talk about the technicals and functionalities of a project 08:59:38 I drank some alcohol underage decades ago (long, long past any statute of limitations). That's the closest I got. 09:00:29 apotheon: hahaha 09:01:58 I'm not into drugs either. I'm just into the private transactions in general. I use cash as much as I can in my day-to-day life whether that i just buying groceries. 09:02:46 I don't even drink alcohol at all now. I'm the sort who just doesn't find the trade-offs of recreational drugs very tempting. I do still consume some amount of caffeine and sugar, though. 09:02:48 mawk: 100% of the uses I have had for monero would make my mom sad <---- lmaoo 09:03:27 I don't really care if others are into it. And I respect the dark market for being able to find the right tools. 09:03:32 apotheon: coffe never interested me idk why my parents drink it all the time tho 09:03:43 I oppose drug prohibition on ethical grounds, but essentially have no use for any of these illegal recreational drugs. 09:04:31 I spent more time alive on heroin than being sober 09:04:33 I like enjoying a nice scotch or rye here and there. 09:04:37 mawk: hahahaha 09:04:43 damn 09:04:43 I don't like coffee, really. I do like some green tea, and very specific flavored lattes appeal to me. 09:04:45 14 years versus 12 years 09:04:46 your funny bro 09:04:56 I also like Mexican Pepsi a lot. 09:05:17 probably worse for you than heroin 09:05:30 for sure 09:05:48 hahahaha 09:05:54 I doubt that, but in terms of the organs in my abdomen sugar water is as bad as alcohol, I think. 09:06:11 Alcohol seems to have a much more pronounced effect on the brain. 09:06:58 I have at least cut back my sugar intake over the years, though my egg nog habit just won't relent. 09:07:22 while sugar is bad, alcohol is also quite toxic to all your organs, not just the brain 09:07:39 We get dairy delivered directly to our door, and holy crap is the dairy's egg nog DELICIOUS. 09:08:11 john mcafee did a lot of drugs and he was a genius 09:08:25 😅 09:08:26 he did MDPV at some point 09:08:28 "bath salts" 09:08:29 cant wait till im able to buy groceries with monero 09:08:29 Hilariously, some of the negative effects of sugar also apply to sugar replacements. 09:08:30 I did those too 09:08:37 but that was pretty bad it landed me in the psych ward 09:08:40 mawk: I've grown quite distrustful of nutrition science tbh, but it's probably best to eat the way people ate before 1900 09:08:59 depends, if you eat like kings ate you'll get gout 09:09:04 yeji-weji[m]: i lovE <3 [jmcafee] 09:09:08 i lovE <3 [jmcafee] 09:09:46 I don't believe in science in general 09:09:53 yeji-weji[m]: that's highly cringe 09:12:01 a more appropriate wording is i think there are a lot of science "truths" that get through without a healthy amount of debate or skepticism 09:12:38 everyone believed bitcoin was a private method of exchange just because some experts told them 5-10 years ago (hell even today they might still believe it) 09:12:58 I believe in the benefits of science, but I don't always believe that some so-called "science" is actually scientific. 09:13:17 yeji-weji[m]: Not everyone 09:13:22 A lot of interpretations of experimental data ends up being highly fucking suspect, particularly when stuff is based on modelling. 09:13:43 especially when scientists lie 09:13:55 and when they lie it's not caught immediately 09:14:15 I pretty quickly realized Bitcoin was pseudonymous, but I had the benefit of some infosec experience behind me. 09:14:16 but when it's stuff like physics or maths I believe in it more easily 09:14:35 . . . and the thing about pseudonymity is that it's only as strong as your opsec. 09:15:03 my opsec is doing nothing and hoping I don't get caught 09:15:09 har 09:15:11 apotheon: With mean null for most users 09:15:13 but anyway quantities are too low for me to go to jail or anything 09:15:15 At least you know your limitations. 09:15:29 since I live in an actual civilized country where we don't treat addicts like subhuman scum 09:15:56 yeji-weji[m]: I'm pretty sure that institutional science wasn't super focused on bitcoin, but yeah I get what you mean, I'm also not a big fan of modern institutional science 09:15:56 fundementally the idea that science is some process of revelation that will always give you true results no matter what is a very silly child's view of how science is supposed to work (it's supposed to be a dynamic method to understand nature) 09:15:59 mawk: more civlized in some ways, less in others, most likely 09:16:04 maybe 09:16:08 I live in weedlandia 09:16:12 mawk: That is definitely an important matter for civility, though. 09:16:14 i.e. the kingdom of netherlands 09:16:20 righto 09:16:35 In the Netherlands, I'd be in fucking prison for my lifestyle. 09:16:50 lol 09:16:51 why 09:16:56 guns, for one 09:16:59 ah yeah 09:17:04 I don't know the local law 09:17:14 I know the french gun law, which isn't very good if you like guns 09:17:21 It's not down under, but it's down underwater. 09:17:43 Can you use cash 100% of the time you use money in Netherlands? 09:17:50 no RavFX[m] 09:17:54 cash is being phased out 09:17:59 you pay with debit card for everything 09:18:01 That answer it all 09:18:03 even the baguette at the boulangerie 09:18:11 they start refusing cash payments now 09:18:19 the other day they literally turned me away because I wanted to pay in cash 09:18:21 lost a sale 09:18:26 at the icecream seller 09:18:36 I would be living outside or something if I where stuck in the neatherland lol 09:18:49 I think on MoneroTalk this morning I heard there is some new cash incentive being rolled out in Italy? 09:18:51 we have a good housing policy, not many people live on the street 09:19:11 beggars adapt, now they present you their IBAN so you can wire money 09:19:18 since no cash is a huge problem for them 09:19:20 The Netherlands is evidently very restrictive for gun ownership. 09:19:37 not many european countries like guns 09:19:41 switzerland is an exception 09:19:43 Check the Gun Regulations heading here: https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/netherlands 09:20:05 czech republic is one of the better gun countries in europe i think 09:20:23 In particular, check "Restricted Firearms and Ammunition", and "Gun Ownership and Possession". 09:20:28 yeji-weji[m]: Yes, it is. 09:20:35 . . . and it's still not good enough for me. 09:20:57 One thing the EU tends to do better than the US is suppressors. 09:21:09 it's less restrictive than in france apotheon 09:21:11 it seems 09:21:15 In the UK, suppressors are treated as what they are: safety equipment. 09:21:28 You can get the suppressor in EU but you'll have nothing to stick it onto 😅 09:21:32 US law treats suppressors as if they're murder tools. 09:21:55 come help me rob the methadone clinic with your guns 09:21:58 something like a good boy $200 tax and wait 2 years 09:22:07 mawk: Yeah, it probably is less restrictive than France, but from the perspective of the US it looks totally locked down. 09:22:25 well applying for a license isn't the end of the world 09:22:31 but you don't have full auto stuff 09:22:36 only long guns for hunting or handguns 09:22:53 You don't even get semi-auto in the Netherlands, for rifles, I think. 09:23:21 I guess that means . . . bolt action, pump action, lever action, and single shot breech load . . . ? 09:23:29 in the US the legality of full auto is kind of.. vague 09:23:51 two shots stuff I guess apotheon 09:23:54 "regular" hunter rifle 09:23:57 specific firearms are grandfathered in, but you from my understanding you can't modify any old semi auto AR-15 to have a full auto trigger system 09:23:57 I guess you could have a multi-barrel breech load rifle or shotgun. 09:24:05 with two barrels 09:24:10 that's what I see hunters having in france 09:24:18 US legality for full auto is actually simpler than it seems, but not great. 09:24:43 It's possible. 09:24:51 you can do fake full auto 09:24:58 with magic stuff like bump triggers 09:25:07 or whatever it's called 09:25:41 bump stock 09:25:46 For average citizens, you can apply for a tax stamp for a full auto firearm, and when you get it (and pay the really excessive tax) you can then buy the firearm, and you need one for each full auto firearm. The only full auto firearms for this are those that were already registered under the FOPA rules as of 1986, so no new stuff can be bought and sold this way. 09:26:00 trump banned bump stocks :( 09:26:30 o 09:26:46 If you have one of several types of federal firearm license (FFL), you can manufacture your own firearms or buy new stuff, potentially subject to some import restrictions. 09:27:24 Bump stocks are pretty silly, but it's even sillier to ban them. 09:28:17 err, with an FFL I meant you can manufacture your own full auto firearms 09:28:36 so if you opt-in for extra KYC basically 09:28:39 (as well as other firearms, but what I was addressing was full auto) 09:28:57 Yeah, and pay a couple hundred dollars a pop for the privilege of extra KYC. 09:31:06 https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/nigerias-president-says-west-supplied-weapons-ukraine-are-filtering-africa 09:31:07 odds some of these are being bought with monero in africa? 09:31:36 Then, of course, you're not allowed to get rid of the automatic firearm without either destroying it or giving/selling it to someone else eligible to acquire it (e.g. an FFL holder, someone who paid to get the tax stamp, or presumably an "appropriate" gov agency like the ATF). 09:32:36 yeji-weji[m]: I give it about a fifteen to twenty percent chance of some being purchased with Monero, at a guess, but my confidence is not high that I'm getting the right percentage range. 09:33:14 It sounds like Nigeria has a pretty high bitcoin adoption. I'm not sure if they use a lot of Monero there yet though. 09:35:17 Can you imagine how much trouble someone would get into 3D printing guns in any of most places in Europe? 09:36:31 I heard Germany is really strict lately with enforcing the law and even ordinary fines can result in jail time if not paid promptly. 09:42:38 What would Ross Ulbrich's sentence have been in a typical European country? I'd be willing to bet it would be less. 09:42:42 Yeah, Germany seems to be getting pretty draconian, from what I've seen. 09:43:04 There's a T on the end of Ross' surname, by the way. 09:43:54 s/Ulbrich/Ulbricht/ 09:51:57 well counts don't add up, for a first 09:52:15 you don't get insane 17393839 years in prison like in the US 09:52:33 for drug trafficking max is 35 years in France 09:53:07 It's flatly absurd that Ross got the sentence he did. Two life sentences for running a website is just insane. 09:53:17 or 30 09:53:26 max is 30 years for all crimes anyway 09:53:49 then you get parole 09:54:06 "incompressible perpetuity" is 30 years in France 09:54:24 he solicited murder apotheon 09:54:27 no? 09:57:35 mawk: The FBI claimed he did, but there wasn't any substantive evidence. If there was, they would've brought it to trial. 09:58:15 yeah 09:58:19 In addition to that, the only supposed victim of an attempt at a murder contract actually vouched for Ross, saying he didn't do anything of the sort. 09:58:53 https://freeross.org/the-charges/ 09:59:29 There's also the fact that there were multiple people acting under the name DPR at various times, and even if someone did try to secure a murder contract there's not really any way to firmly tie it to Ross, as far as I know. 09:59:47 ocean[m]: drugs are bad guys, Ross Ulbricht deserves to be in jail 10:00:01 no more aspirin for you, then 10:00:24 apotheon: actually I never take aspirin or things like that when I'm sicks 10:00:27 s/sicks/sick/ 10:01:31 Do you think people deserve to go to prison for selling analgesics and alcohol? 10:03:39 apotheon: I believe drugs should be illegal and the punishments for selling them should be much harsher than they are, yes this includes analgesics 10:03:54 no it doesn't include alcohol 10:04:35 I was about to say at least you're consistent, but alcohol is far more harmful than aspirin. 10:05:03 "There's also the fact that there..." <- the dude was hosting a website that allowed you to order a contract to kill people, the fact that it was never done doesn't exactly exhonorate him 10:05:44 No, it didn't allow that. They had rules against it. 10:06:06 . . . or at least that's my understanding. I think some people posted such ads, but when found they got taken down. 10:06:18 (I never actually visited it. I'm repeating stuff I've read about it.) 10:07:28 it allowed guns 10:07:31 apotheon: I must have misunderstood what you meant, obviously every country in the world has aspirin avalible OTC (even though I don't use it and think many drugs are heavily overused, including things like aspirin) 10:07:31 either way you're just playing word games 10:07:40 but now there's not a single one website that sells gun there 10:07:49 mawk: nothing wrong with selling guns 10:07:52 that I have found at least 10:08:16 well it makes the feds want to track you down even faster 10:08:23 so they don't want to be in the spotlight 10:08:26 right 10:08:32 they don't allow child porn either 10:09:15 >drugs are bad 10:09:21 >alcohol isn't among them 10:09:24 Yeah . . . people who make porn with children are fucking awful. 10:09:27 ok lou[m] 10:09:36 lou[m] lacks some consistency 10:09:46 I'm happier with my dope than drinking poisonous ethanol 10:10:01 at least I am in good health with a good liver 10:10:19 and no brain damage from my cerebrospinal fluid having been replaced with liquor 10:11:31 mawk: >the fact that the only legal drug is the most harmful tells us that we should allow them all for "consistency" 10:11:31 yeah in an ideal world I think alcohol shouldn't be legal either, but tradition is also a factor here 10:11:31 also prohibitionists did nothing wrong fite me 10:12:56 Prohibition turns a peaceful industry with few non-functional addicts into a violent industry with many non-functional addicts. 10:13:35 mawk: yeah, it only increases your risk of contracting schizophrenia by 5x, no biggie 10:13:56 and basically all mentall ilnesses as well 10:14:04 what 10:14:11 heroin? 10:14:17 not really, no 10:14:23 mawk: I thouhgt you were talking about weed 10:14:27 no 10:14:31 I don't like weed 10:14:37 it makes people dumb 10:14:47 mawk: are you unironically saying we should legalize heroin? 10:14:58 I only take ☕ nowadays 10:15:02 for addicts yes 10:15:07 not for new customers 10:15:36 mawk: that's obviously retarded, addicts need to get rehab 10:15:54 which can come through the use of medicalized heroin 10:16:10 rehab isn't just the 12 steps insane bullshit you have in the USA 10:16:22 here in Europe we actually use a method that works, called substitution 10:17:17 I'm unironically saying we should legalize heroin. 10:17:28 People who need help could get it without fear of incarceration, then. 10:17:31 apotheon: well you're unironically retarded and insane 10:17:36 some use methadone, some use buprenorphine, and some that can't stop shooting and don't do well on the other two are given medicalized heroin ie diamorphin, in countries like Switzerland 10:17:46 I use methadone myself 10:17:51 should that be illegal too? 10:18:02 mawk: yes 10:18:19 I guess the cancer patients using it for pain will have to suffer 10:18:22 lol 10:18:38 I use methadone as prescribed by a doctor, I meant 10:18:41 it's not street drugs 10:18:45 lou[m]: Your inability to have a civil discussion with someone who disagrees with you about whether the death toll of prohibition is worse than some people making their own decisions does not speak well for your reasoning skills. 10:19:06 Perhaps you could get some lessons in how to interact with other humans some day. 10:19:09 are you unironically suggesting pulling medication that work from shelves to stick it to the bad addict people? 10:21:38 let's also pull valium and all its friends and let you die from delirium tremens when you run out of booze 10:22:00 we don't want a single psychoactive medication 10:23:59 "lou: Your inability to have a..." <- lobertarian logic is essentially... (full message at ) 10:24:14 s/drug/alcohol/ 10:25:50 #monero-offtopic:monero.social 10:25:53 Your lack of ability to think beyond first-order effects is not my problem. 10:26:16 Yall just talking about legalizing heroin and whwrther crack bad IR good 10:26:19 Please move on. You've already proven you're not fit for civil discussion. I don't care to continue feeding you. 10:26:20 Tf 10:26:40 mawk: you're just playing word games here, when I said "drug" I wasn't talking about literally all possible medications 10:26:40 I think psychiatric/opiod/pain meds are heavily overused, but that's not obv. what we're talking about here 10:26:40 Obv. they should be illegal for anyone who doesn't need them and heavily regulated 10:27:10 Clearly a bunch of addicts up in here. 10:28:52