02:00:35 <xmrack[m]> Does anyone know the status of https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/MoneroSigner.html 
02:02:24 <plowsof11> yes 
02:03:08 <plowsof11> he seems to have finished his first research milestone (portableQR) and has now forked the seedsigner repo https://github.com/Monero-HackerIndustrial
02:04:20 <plowsof11> last activity 3 weeks ago (i assume work will begin in january) https://github.com/Monero-HackerIndustrial/MoneroSigner but ive had no direct contact with the proposer 
02:05:44 <plowsof11> oh, some commits to the seedsigner companion app there too
02:45:22 <xmrack[m]> Awesome! Thanks
02:45:25 <xmrack[m]> Excited for it
13:07:40 <Trung> sgp[m], I did provide the main address. ofrnxmr[m], yeah i guess it's bug.
13:07:40 <Trung> thanks
14:37:24 <qwestion> is there a privacy coin or token based on rust and y are ppl here still prefering monero if it doesnt use rust?
14:39:33 <qwestion> solana tezos and polkadot use rust...theyre not private/anonymous  enough?
14:42:25 <sech1> Ask stupid question, get stupid answers
14:44:54 <sech1> Just so you know, rust is not a some magical mcguffin that makes everything awesome
14:45:00 <sech1> it's just a programming language
14:45:09 <sech1> it can't help shitty programmers
15:20:56 <kurisu> Yes it can.
15:33:18 <RavFX[m]> C++ is fine when you have programmers with brainz
15:55:44 <marcusnewman[m]> Hello all
16:03:13 <tevador> qwestion: search for "solana|tezos|polkadot rich list" and "Monero rich list" and see if you can spot the difference.
20:35:02 <fr33_yourself[m]> Has anyone thought through the end game where blockchains gain further adoption and nodes are required to run and store large blockchains? How does this future look for Monero? In the short term it seems like a far off problem, but 5 or 10 years from now if millions of tx's per day occur using Monero how would this look? Is it really feasible to think that a blockchain and network can persist for a century without having to "restart"
20:35:02 <fr33_yourself[m]> the blockchain or something like this?
20:47:28 <fr33_yourself[m]> If bitcoin sticks with the 1mg block size cap and has full blocks for 100 years it's chain would increase 5.256 TB which actually isn't that much. Not shilling for Bitcoin Layer 1, because it's slow, expensive, and isn't private I was just curious if anyone had thought this through or modelled Monero chain size expansion
20:49:35 <as2333> fr33_yourself[m] you know what's also pretty interesting? According to 'satoshi' scaling isn't a problem because you just put everythin on the joogle-NSA datacenter
20:51:06 <as2333> fr33_yourself[m] you can check his comment about "just a few DVD per day" 
20:52:54 <RavFX[m]> Won't be a problem, we can buy 20TB drives today
20:53:28 <as2333> see ^
20:53:38 <tmm627[m]> i wonder that myself too. all the cryptos I've looked at in some depth have some scaling problems
20:54:44 <tmm627[m]> having 20tb drives doesn't help if you live a shithole country with data caps on all the residential lines
20:54:46 <fr33_yourself[m]> RavFX[m]: How much do those costs?
20:55:22 <fr33_yourself[m]> Also are you being sarcastic or not sarcastic
20:55:24 <tmm627[m]> about $300-350 USD depending on make and model
20:56:43 <fr33_yourself[m]> No he said 20TB
20:56:46 <fr33_yourself[m]> SSD
20:57:10 <tmm627[m]> no he didnt
20:58:33 <fr33_yourself[m]> How would it work if the drives were HDDs rather than SSDs? Don't they need to be SSD's in order to work?
21:00:13 <tmm627[m]> it takes much less time to sync to SSD. once synced, they seem to work just as well on HDD, at least in my experience with a personal non-public node
21:02:37 <RavFX[m]> HDD work just fine, just need a throwaway SSD corned for "write-cache".. Need like 32GB of it
21:02:46 <RavFX[m]> s/corned/corner/
21:03:31 <RavFX[m]> most "shit holes" country don't have datacap.
21:03:31 <RavFX[m]> Only some "first world" countries seam to have datacap on broadband
21:04:24 <RavFX[m]> Need to be write cache, not normal cache that do read-write.
21:04:24 <RavFX[m]> Tested here using LVM2 for cache, can sync the blockchain on a SMR pile of crap HDD in about 10 hours
21:04:36 <RavFX[m]> * sync the Monero blockchain on
21:07:02 <nioc> I'm still waiting for my old 256GB SSD to fill up so that I can buy a new one
21:07:25 <nioc> not a pruned node
21:08:13 <nioc> 2TB now costs what I paid for that 256GB
21:09:40 <nioc> and if it was a pruned node .....
21:10:21 <nioc> storage is not the bottleneck 
21:12:41 <nioc> 2TB NVMe $129
21:18:07 <RavFX[m]> in the future, when Monero will become the main crypto, the blockchain will grow a lot fast and it might be cost effective to use HDD + SSD cache
21:18:37 * RavFX[m] uploaded an image: (6KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/monero.social/fZGzDMWppsOtvKUoKYAcdTwP/image.png >
21:18:38 <RavFX[m]> Monero seam to have to read the decoys to validate the TX and so Monero use mostly recent TX as decoys. And it's why caching do a really good job for speeding up the process and removing the HDD malus
21:19:49 <RavFX[m]> it's whe "write cache" is important, instead of normal cache.
21:19:50 <RavFX[m]> normal cache, the read (think old TX decoy that is older than size of cache) having to be read from HDD, with is not a problem except that in normal cache, these read endup cached and so evict more recent decoys from the cache
21:22:08 <RavFX[m]> Currently, 16GB worth of cache is enough to sync the whole thing except the last 1% lol, so a little more cover that, it's why I say 32GB.... Maybe when monero will be the main crypto, it will need something more like 512GB worth of it.
21:22:09 <RavFX[m]> so a good setup could be a 1TB drive for cache and a 100TB array worth of HDD for storage. That setup is less than U$ 2K I think.
21:23:26 <tmm627[m]> too expensive for too many people. it needs to be usable on commodity hardware
21:24:52 <RavFX[m]> tmm627[m]: Theses can use pruned node.
21:24:52 <RavFX[m]> Plus we are not at 100TB yet.
21:24:53 <RavFX[m]> Right now you need a 32GB SSD and a 1TB drive....
21:25:49 <RavFX[m]> and who know, maybe in 15 years when the blockchain will be 20TB, we will find 20TB hdd for free in dumpsters
21:27:54 <RavFX[m]> 1TB should last for a long while still, as long as Monero is not prime crypto, it will probably grow less than 50GB / yr
21:31:01 * RavFX[m] uploaded an image: (13KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/monero.social/ZFEjRyXTBqmsWPwQBZJtyUuK/image.png >
21:31:09 <RavFX[m]> Oh, we popped my daily memeline!
21:33:49 <as2333> I think in theory the decoy signatures should be chosen at random, so caching wouldn't work - but don't quote me
21:34:38 <RavFX[m]> as2333: Yeah, but it's not how it work right now
21:34:38 <RavFX[m]> So caching will work as long as they don't change that
21:42:13 <Rucknium[m]> They are chosen at random. It's just not a uniform probability. They are chosen from a gamma distribution that makes recent outputs more likely to be selected since that mimics real user behavior better than a uniform distribution.
21:42:44 <RavFX[m]> So it's unlikely that they will change it, thanks.
21:42:44 <RavFX[m]> Long live to write cache!
21:43:43 <fr33_yourself[m]> I see
21:43:50 <fr33_yourself[m]> So it's not so crazy
21:44:24 <fr33_yourself[m]> I'm still a bit apprehensive, but I guess it makese sense
21:44:43 <fr33_yourself[m]> Don't you think decades down the line there could be issues though or no?
21:45:08 <fr33_yourself[m]> hardware and bandwidth will improve?
21:45:41 <RavFX[m]> No issue, storage get more and more cheap
21:45:41 <RavFX[m]> Bandwidth is sufficient to make as much TX as Visa do.
21:45:50 <Rucknium[m]> It's likely going to be changed, but it will still select from recent blocks with higher probability.
21:46:02 <as2333> Rucknium[m] arent older outputs ignored because of compatibility reasons as well?
21:46:09 <RavFX[m]> Rucknium[m]: Perfect then!
21:47:28 <Rucknium[m]> as2333: Yes. Pre-RingCT outputs cannot be combined with RingCT outputs in the same input (in the same ring).
21:47:55 <RavFX[m]> The biggest risk for Monero, (and all other crypto), is a State induced splinternet event.
21:49:01 <RavFX[m]>  * The biggest risk for Monero, (and all other crypto), is a State induced splinternet event. And if that append, even U$ 1M worth of hardware won't fix it.
21:51:16 <fr33_yourself[m]> RavFX[m]: If that happened due you think many people would sell? Probably right? That could be a bit of a cataclysmic event.
21:55:18 <fr33_yourself[m]> I think Monero works great right now, I just wonder if 10 to 20 years from now the network will still be healthy with nodes and isn't getting over-burdened by tx's
21:55:32 <RavFX[m]> fr33_yourself[m]: Depend how it append.
21:55:32 <RavFX[m]> If they tell use they will split the net in different region and prohibit packets from reaching other regions (using whitelist). Then yes, people will get there money back ASAP.
21:55:33 <RavFX[m]> If they plan everything without telling us and split the net by surprise, then the chains will be splitted by region. Selling will probably still possible if you have a local exchange still operating (in the same region).
21:55:33 <RavFX[m]> Seriously I don't know what will append if a splinternet occur. Best case scenario would be a revolt and the state taken down, in that case the net could be make whole again and the longest chain will survive (will probably cause a lot of pain for people who "brought" during the splinternet event)
21:56:19 <fr33_yourself[m]> Yeah that's true
21:56:37 <RavFX[m]> fr33_yourself[m]: I don't think it's an issue really
21:56:38 <RavFX[m]> Syncing could be more painful but I think it's the only con.
21:56:46 <fr33_yourself[m]> If a splinternet occurs I don't think people will revolt
21:57:16 <RavFX[m]> fr33_yourself[m]: Yeah, unfortunately I think the same.
21:57:29 <RavFX[m]> it's why I said best case scenario :p
21:57:29 <fr33_yourself[m]> > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> I don't think it's an issue really
21:57:29 <fr33_yourself[m]> > Syncing could be more painful but I think it's the only con.
21:57:29 <fr33_yourself[m]> I agree. My only concern is that Monero succeeds quicker than hardware can keep up
21:58:36 <fr33_yourself[m]> I wonder what the probability of a splinternet is? Would it affect bitcoin equally as badly as Monero?
21:58:39 <fr33_yourself[m]> Because even in China and Russia I think there are people running bitcoin and monero nodes over the clear net right?
22:00:02 <RavFX[m]> I think the WEF already talked about a splinternet (to protecc again a cyberpandemic or something like that)
22:00:02 <RavFX[m]> But the real reason is that the admins don't like the information propagating outside. It's easier to control a population when they don't have access to information from other continents / cultures
22:01:24 <RavFX[m]> Right, China and Russia are not really in a splinternet.
22:01:24 <RavFX[m]> A devastating splinternet would be one using firewall configured using whitelist.
22:01:24 <RavFX[m]> China and Russia use blacklist
22:01:24 <RavFX[m]> And anti-russia also use blacklist to block russia
22:01:32 <RavFX[m]> as long as they use blacklist, we are fine
22:02:43 <RavFX[m]> If they blacklist port 1808*, nothing would prevent the monero project of using another port as backup or using some layer 2 network.
22:03:09 <RavFX[m]> but if they use whitelist, the layer 2 network would also stop working
22:04:54 <fr33_yourself[m]> So it's possible that a whitelist splinternet happens, but the likelihood of it happening is unknown?
22:05:19 <RavFX[m]> Right now there node in russia and china.
22:05:19 <RavFX[m]> and I think china is one of the top in Monero google trends.
22:05:36 <RavFX[m]> fr33_yourself[m]: Exact, they did talk about it. But execution -if- is unknow
22:06:34 <as2333> if/when the state gets serious about attacking independent cryptosystem, they will use more than one trick, I'd assume
22:07:17 <RavFX[m]> Well, without a whitelist based splinternet, there will always be way to go around the states scams
22:07:19 <as2333> cryptosystems*
22:08:14 <RavFX[m]> And the Monero people are already good at not using the CEX (Which I think it one of the biggest point of attack again cryptos in general).
22:09:01 <RavFX[m]> If the states want to kill crypto without a whitelist based splinternet, they will blacklist and/or shutdown the CEXs
22:09:32 <RavFX[m]> If they do that, Monero will endup being #1 😂
22:09:52 <RavFX[m]> And they know that.... So they won't shutdown the CEXs
22:10:09 <RavFX[m]> Monero is like the nukes... A very good deterrent. 
22:11:08 <RavFX[m]> The more the states scam again crypto, the more people will switch to Monero, ezpz
22:11:34 <as2333> that's a good point
22:14:28 <fr33_yourself[m]> Yeah I guess we will have to see what happens
22:14:51 <fr33_yourself[m]> a splinternet would affect bitcoin equally as badly would it not?
22:19:02 * RavFX[m] uploaded an image: (379KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/monero.social/EwQSslEvaMatqwbNzjFmHeHA/image.png >
22:19:18 <RavFX[m]> A whitelist based splinternet will fsck all crypto.
22:19:18 <RavFX[m]> except if the admins whitelist it
22:21:48 <fr33_yourself[m]> How would the government even implement a splinternet? Would they cut the cables that branch off to other countries or is it different than that?
22:22:07 <fr33_yourself[m]> You trade Monero?
22:22:52 <RavFX[m]> They have to put firewall between chokepoints.
22:22:53 <RavFX[m]> And put authorized IP in a whitelist. Then block everything else
22:23:34 <fr33_yourself[m]> So they already have an admin system established like that and they would just need to tweak those parameters?
22:23:54 <fr33_yourself[m]> It sounds kind of easy, but I don't know what all of that entails in practice
22:23:59 <RavFX[m]> fr33_yourself[m]: I mostly trade Forex (using XMR as collateral)
22:23:59 <RavFX[m]> But XMR is indeed an exception. I often leverage it a little when the weekly is favorable.. so I get more XMR.. But I don't sell my spot XMR, I only use it
22:24:09 <fr33_yourself[m]> Because you said they already have a black-list right?
22:25:05 <fr33_yourself[m]> Do you have to pay taxes on your trading? And what is the name of the forex platform you use?
22:25:24 <RavFX[m]> fr33_yourself[m]: Yes and no.
22:25:24 <RavFX[m]> They might have the equipment ready, I can't know.
22:25:24 <RavFX[m]> But so far most blockage in western countries are blocked using DNS afaik. So ISP have to block it in there DNS and the way around that, is to use other DNS.
22:26:10 <RavFX[m]> fr33_yourself[m]: Platform I use is SimpleFX, please don't lose you're nice orange coins.
22:27:08 <RavFX[m]> I just deposit some orange coins and shot fiats (somehow I find it easier to short shit) so I short what it shortable
22:27:29 <RavFX[m]> s/shot/short/
22:28:14 <fr33_yourself[m]> and this is your primary income stream?
22:28:29 <RavFX[m]> fr33_yourself[m]: Internet stuff ;)
22:29:37 <RavFX[m]> > <@fr33_yourself:monero.social> and this is your primary income stream?
22:29:37 <RavFX[m]>  * Internet stuff is my primary income.
22:29:37 <RavFX[m]> Mostly code.
22:29:37 <RavFX[m]> Trade too but I mostly trade the weekly so it's slow (but it does pay well too)
22:30:01 <fr33_yourself[m]> gotcha