02:26:35 <hyc> :q
02:26:40 <hyc> oops
03:51:35 <BusyBoredom[m]> Someday when old I'm retired and have nothing to do with my time, I wanna make a modified monerod that just deletes old blocks. I'm fully aware of the downsides of losing permanence, but it's such a simple solution it makes my brain happy. 
03:59:46 <BusyBoredom[m]> When I'm old and retired*
04:44:15 <gingeropolous> then you wouldn't be able to verify new txs
05:40:59 <geonic> when u finish, do a bicycle that removes its spokes
06:51:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> Just loosen all of the lug nuts on you car tires
06:51:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> So much more convenient to change a flat if the tire removes itself 
06:53:46 <BusyBoredom[m]> Can verify txs spending old outputs by grabbing the relevant info from other nodes. I think my modification would be a "cult following of 10 people" kind of thing, so its not like it wouldn't be able to find normal nodes to mooch off of :P 
06:56:11 <BusyBoredom[m]> I know dropping permanence on the consensus level isn't something the community would ever realistically accept. I'm just fantasizing
07:06:21 <geonic> who needs lug nuts anyway
07:14:47 <BusyBoredom[m]> With my luck it'd probably fail to get the info it needs at some point and unintentionally cause a hard fork. 
13:40:57 <binaryFate> .
13:44:49 <plowsof11> .pong
13:44:49 <Wallet> plowsof11: PING
13:44:57 <plowsof11> lol
13:45:09 <plowsof11> .ping
13:45:09 <Wallet> plowsof11: PONG
13:57:21 <monerobull[m]1> test
13:59:10 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> test
13:59:31 <monerobull[m]1> kek now its in both rooms
14:17:47 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> test
14:17:50 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> test2
14:17:54 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> test3
14:17:57 <bridgerton[m]> <kemosabe> test
14:18:01 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> 4
14:18:12 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> 5
14:18:31 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> 7
14:18:33 <bridgerton[m]> <kemosabe> 6 was missing
14:18:34 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> different room
14:18:38 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> 8
14:18:39 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> 8
14:18:40 <fourt14n[m]> test69
14:20:37 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> 9
14:21:10 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> does it still post to the old room
14:22:35 <bridgerton[m]> <kemosabe> i can see this on #monero on discord
14:26:57 <sech1> test failed successfully
14:35:37 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> ?
14:35:43 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> it seems to work properly now
14:44:25 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> alright, let me know if any other rooms should be bridged or if there are issues.
14:45:28 <sech1> everything works, it was a joke :)
14:53:52 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> dont scare me like that :P
16:46:29 <charuto> does anyone know what's up with general fund transparency reports?
16:46:55 <charuto> last one i can find was over a year and a half ago, aren't they supposed to be yearly?
16:47:06 <charuto> https://www.getmonero.org/2021/06/24/general-fund-2020-2021-report.html
16:54:46 <monerobull[m]1> If you want to donate without donating to a specific proposal but also not to the rather non-transparent   general fund, you can donate to the MAGIC Monero fund 😁
16:58:55 <geonic> wen GF transparency report?
17:09:16 <plowsof11> its on binaryFate s todo list 
17:15:04 <lasthayek[m]> One question. The more we buy monero, bitcoin whatever, the more money the miners make. So the price bubbles are always incentivised by miners I.e manipulating social media or media. 
17:15:04 <lasthayek[m]> In such a system, how can 1btc=1btc or 1 xmr = 1xmr assumption work? It is all dollars at the end of the day
17:24:46 <nioc> or are they euros or swiss francs or.....
17:25:10 <smathy[m]> Not sure what your question is, saying it is all dollars at the end suggests you're really asking whether 1xmr translated to USD at X point in time = 1xmr translated to USD at Y point in time.  Obviously not.
17:25:46 <smathy[m]> s/translated/converted/, s/translated/converted/
17:27:55 <plowsof11> monerobull: can we have the view-key of the MAGIC funds monero wallet 
17:35:31 <Pcubensis[m]> > <@lasthayek:matrix.org> One question. The more we buy monero, bitcoin whatever, the more money the miners make. So the price bubbles are always incentivised by miners I.e manipulating social media or media. 
17:35:31 <Pcubensis[m]> > 
17:35:31 <Pcubensis[m]> > In such a system, how can 1btc=1btc or 1 xmr = 1xmr assumption work? It is all dollars at the end of the day
17:35:31 <Pcubensis[m]> Imagine bitcoin or monero is a fiat currency. It has an exchange rate for example XMR/USD. Just like there is an exchange rate for GBP/USD. One pound is worth so many dollars like wise one monero is worth so many dollars, so many pounds, so many euro, etc, etc. 
17:35:59 <Pcubensis[m]> But GBP is not "all dollars"
17:36:04 <Pcubensis[m]> neither is XMR or BTC
17:38:57 <PredatorONormies> back (connected)
17:39:28 <PredatorONormies> fiat currencies (like dollars) are just a currency, and Monero is a currency, too
17:39:49 <PredatorONormies> It's just we are much more used to dollars, and well - can buy almost anything with it, but cannot do so with Monero yet.
17:40:03 <PredatorONormies> exchange rate doesn't matter... well it does
17:40:33 <PredatorONormies> but it can be irrelevant.. who decides on how many dollars does a xmr cost?
17:40:51 <PredatorONormies> that's my limited understanding of it, anyways
17:41:22 <PredatorONormies> and since there will be only a limited amount of Monero (if I understand correctly XD) - shouldn't it's price be stable/locked?
17:43:42 <cockliuser[m]> PredatorONormies: Just like any other economic exchange, supply and demand does
17:44:44 <cockliuser[m]> PredatorONormies: Not entirely true, see: https://moneromarket.io (even though items are priced in USD :P)
17:45:06 <as2333> "1btc=1btc or 1 xmr=1xmr assumption" <-- that's not an assumption, that's a tautology - a=a, true but it doesn't mean much.
17:51:25 <Pcubensis[m]> <PredatorONormies> "and since there will be only a..." <- No, but we are talking about exchanging it with currencies like USD and GBP which are printable and have potentially infinite supply. Because of this + supply and demand the price will never be stable, unless articially done, ie stablecoin, but even then a stablecoin isn't actually stable, it varies with the fiat/cryptocurrency it is tied to's price
17:52:06 <Pcubensis[m]> However, XMR does not have an infinite supply meaning the supply side of the equation is relatively stable, yet demand will never be
17:52:19 <Pcubensis[m]> * infinite supply (kind of) meaning the
17:52:51 <smathy[m]> <cockliuser[m]> "Not entirely true, see: https..." <- Heh, yeah, my diet consists entirely of honey nuts and chutney too ;)
17:52:52 <smathy[m]> * of honey, nuts
17:55:16 <BoBeR182> I understood monero has inflation
17:55:23 <Pcubensis[m]> Does anyone here know of a good anonymous mailing service? I.e. a service that can accept packages for you without you needing to input your real address?
17:55:31 <BoBeR182> mining rewards will continue to be released there is no cap?
17:55:41 <Pcubensis[m]> BoBeR182: Technically yes
17:55:47 <BoBeR182> Pcubensis[m]: like a reshipper?
17:55:57 <BoBeR182> or you mean they hold the package and you show up?
17:56:07 <Pcubensis[m]> tail emmissions will exist to continue incenitivizing honest mining
17:56:18 <BoBeR182> UPS or FedEx offer PO boxes, but you need to show ID
17:56:43 <Pcubensis[m]> BoBeR182: reshipper I believe, i remember seeing a service where you pay monero and a guy will ship it to an amazon locker for you, but something similar that isn't only amazon
17:57:40 <monerobull[m]1> <plowsof11> "monerobull: can we have the view..." <- i think we mostly hold in USD
18:01:04 <Rucknium[m]> plowsof: Is a view key for MAGIC something that people really want? Why do they want it? We can discuss it as an advisory committee. I'm not sure that the decision is completely in our hands.
18:01:06 <PredatorONormies> > No, but we are talking about exchanging it with currencies like USD and GBP which are printable and have potentially infinite supply. < That's bad, I know.. but it's up to the XMR beholder to do whatever they want..It's not like that XMR will vanish - it's just get transfered onto another person's XMR wallet, and the other person gets some infinite-able paper lol
18:01:43 <PredatorONormies> price stable? it seems to always have been stable, for me
18:01:52 <PredatorONormies> compared to shit like BTC xD
18:02:54 <PredatorONormies> [continue in #monero-offtopic ?] > Heh, yeah, my diet consists entirely of honey nuts and chutney too ;) < :OOOO hot af! You a vegetarian?
18:03:52 <PredatorONormies> > <Pcubensis[m]> Does anyone here know of a good anonymous mailing service? I.e. a service that can accept packages for you without you needing to input your real address? < There are some kinds of like mailing walls that you can use, but I have no idea how to use them xD and also - there are cameras, so bewawe!
18:04:26 <Rucknium[m]> MAGIC Monero Fund has about a 50%-50% allocation of XMR and USD. (That's USD in fiat fiat, not a stablecoin.)
18:05:03 <smathy[m]> PredatorONormies: Sarcasm.  Making the point that you can't get close to "buy almost anything with [XMR]" yet.
18:05:26 <PredatorONormies> fiat fiat lol
18:05:37 <PredatorONormies> oh xD
18:05:51 <PredatorONormies> close? You can't but almost anything
18:06:01 * PredatorONormies hides in secret while hoping no one proves wrongy
18:06:31 <Pcubensis[m]> PredatorONormies: Yes, i have found monero to be relatively stable as of late compared to BTC/ETH/etc, but it can never be perfectly stable, but stability is an illusion. USDC, for example appears stable because its always either 1, 0.9, or 1.1 USD and a flat line, but if you look at USD chart it is not stable
18:07:03 <smathy[m]> Right, which is what you said, but then cockliuser replied with the moneromarket link saying "not entirely true", keep up son!
18:07:43 <PredatorONormies> didn't check link :DDD
18:08:15 <PredatorONormies> does it work without ShitScript?
18:08:20 <smathy[m]> :)
18:08:27 <PredatorONormies> wait
18:08:32 <smathy[m]> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
18:08:35 <PredatorONormies> is MoneroMarket like craigslist?
18:10:33 <PredatorONormies> I should put my computer somewhere where I cannot hear it, and mine Monero again :/
18:10:40 <PredatorONormies> main reason I stopped: too loud fan noise haha
18:10:48 <Pcubensis[m]> <PredatorONormies> "> <P. cubensis> Does anyone here..." <- Any example of mailing walls? i've never heard of that
18:11:05 <PredatorONormies> No
18:11:23 <PredatorONormies> Sorry
18:13:51 <smathy[m]> It's a long way down my list to investigate the feasibility of mining, I have a vague idea to use the heat energy to heat my floors.
18:14:35 <PredatorONormies> That, too
18:14:41 <PredatorONormies> oh, the heat holy shit I remember it
18:14:51 <PredatorONormies> I should do that
18:14:58 <PredatorONormies> floor heating by mining Monero :)
18:15:10 <PredatorONormies> It's probably most efficient way to heat yourself, actually when you think about it
18:15:13 <smathy[m]> Atm my little laptop makes whatever measly contribution it can for community reasons only.
18:15:18 <cockliuser[m]> <PredatorONormies> "is MoneroMarket like craigslist?" <- Yeah, with escrow, though it's custodial :(
18:15:20 <PredatorONormies> And even in summer - more surface - better cooling?
18:15:25 <PredatorONormies> If CPU water-cooled
18:15:39 <cockliuser[m]> Maybe Bitejo will be the first to implement multisig escrow
18:15:46 <PredatorONormies> cockliuser[m], holy shit?! I love it
18:15:50 <PredatorONormies> someone selling condoms haha
18:15:55 <PredatorONormies> imma sell my MOM
18:16:18 * PredatorONormies looks around the room wondering if there's anything to sell
18:16:34 <smathy[m]> Yeah, summer has a lot more solar, so the breakeven is probably not such an issue.
18:16:57 <PredatorONormies> Does anyone here mine Monero on solar?
18:17:06 <PredatorONormies> Because that's and extra-based chad move btw
18:17:20 <PredatorONormies> and using Monero mining to also heat yourself - daemn
18:17:47 * smathy[m] hasn't done any of it, but that's the direction of my thinking
18:17:59 <PredatorONormies> nice
18:19:00 <PredatorONormies> sorry off-topic, but if anyone has anything on-topic, I'll stop. smathy[m] scientists are working on like magnifier/reverse pyramid that concentrates sunlight into the solar panels
18:19:04 <smathy[m]> ...now I do live at altitude and somewhere it gets very cold in winter, so winter energy use is high, and summer radiation is intense.
18:19:12 <PredatorONormies> not just higher input, but also - from all angles, as I recall it
18:20:00 <PredatorONormies> There is someone I think that mined something.. but I remember it being GPUs so RIP.. but they had lots of solar panels and batteris and GPUs.. so holy shit like YAY
18:20:12 <PredatorONormies> We are finally going for the modern/digital independent living
18:21:03 <smathy[m]> PredatorONormies: I expect they'll end up like Ivanpah
18:21:21 <smathy[m]> Solar still has a lot of challenges on commercial scale.
18:22:29 <PredatorONormies> Who Ivanpah?
18:22:56 <PredatorONormies> smathy[m], commercial scale? Lol Who cares about that? People should do solar independently, in my opinion.
18:23:16 <smathy[m]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanpah_Solar_Power_Facility
18:23:35 <PredatorONormies> No cables, you own it, no price change (except if parts brake )
18:23:41 <PredatorONormies> more output, too
18:23:42 <PredatorONormies> etc
18:23:52 <smathy[m]> Ok, I thought the whole "scientists are work on like magnifier/reverse pyramid" thing was a commercial scale thing.
18:24:38 <PredatorONormies> no idea
18:24:41 <PredatorONormies> I watch Undecided
18:24:43 <smathy[m]> Agreed, but it's gotta be low profile so we don't make every home look like a ....well ...solar power facility :)
18:24:47 <PredatorONormies> They are on Odysee/Lbry
18:24:54 <PredatorONormies> Hah
18:25:09 <PredatorONormies> There is a solar/wind rooftop concept that is ultra-efficient
18:25:44 <PredatorONormies> like make little walls for wind to make it idk but in the end it cools solar panels, so you get better efficiency from them as well as power from a wind generator
18:26:26 <smathy[m]> Wind efficiency is great on day 1.
18:27:11 <PredatorONormies> ?
18:27:26 <PredatorONormies> Well 1. it's roof.. but also 2. I know wind doesn't always blow
18:27:53 <PredatorONormies> It could be useful when sun isn't very shinning like at winter, but also you could like run something more when it's blowing.. like like idk WELD
18:28:00 <PredatorONormies> weld 1 day when wind blows, rest another
18:28:19 <PredatorONormies> or any other high-power tool
18:28:27 <smathy[m]> The wind turbines themselves degrade, so the efficiency degrades over time.
18:28:45 <PredatorONormies> Oh I didn't mention
18:28:53 <PredatorONormies> they're also fanless wind generators
18:28:59 <PredatorONormies> I forgot how
18:29:03 <PredatorONormies> watch Undecided's video xD
18:29:10 <PredatorONormies> and also less noise
18:29:11 <smathy[m]> I did see something... ah, that might be how it wass.  Like it's an impeller inside a chamber?
18:29:23 <PredatorONormies> I think so not sure
18:29:52 <smathy[m]> Yeah, I can't recall right now.  I don't like living where it's windy, so that's never been a source I've looked into much.
18:30:33 <PredatorONormies> Oooh , that was in Ivanpah I see
18:30:44 <PredatorONormies> Same
18:30:58 <PredatorONormies> I got a problem with eyes where I cannot really use a computer for a long time now - so bad for that
18:31:28 <smathy[m]> Another thing I'm looking at is growing algae for biodiesel.
18:33:33 <PredatorONormies> oh
18:33:41 <PredatorONormies> I heard of that
18:34:27 <lasthayek[m]> I understand the price does not matter 1xmr = 1xmr argument.
18:34:27 <lasthayek[m]> What I don’t understand is the more we buy monero or etc, the more the price increases, therefore, the more money make the miners. The miners have the incentive of keeping this profit system on their benefit. They are incentivised to inflate the crypto prices, in order to exchange it with fiat, in the short term. 
18:34:27 <lasthayek[m]> I don’t preach. Please convince me my idea is wrong 
18:34:40 <monerobull[m]1> PredatorONormies: God that would end my life 
18:36:18 <PredatorONormies> Who runs moneromarket?
18:36:44 <PredatorONormies> monerobull[m]1, what would?
18:37:03 <lasthayek[m]> P. cubensis: need your answer 
18:37:32 <monerobull[m]1> PredatorONormies: Not being able to look at screens a lot
18:37:33 <Rucknium[m]> lasthayek: It is in the interest of any producer of a good to keep the price of that good high. Can they do that? In a competitive market, no. Your idea is not necessarily incorrect, but you don't theorize any way that the miners may be able to "keep prices high".
18:37:37 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Glasses?
18:37:51 <smathy[m]> Miners or anyone holding XMR has an incentive for XMR vs anything else that's of value to them, eg. USD, to increase.  So what?
18:37:58 <smathy[m]> * So what?  lasthayek 
18:38:03 <DanIsnotthemanBr> New eyes like”minority report”
18:38:20 <Pcubensis[m]> > <@lasthayek:matrix.org> I understand the price does not matter 1xmr = 1xmr argument.... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/31a7216967418aa6d25add7d0a2bcd30128dbbfe>)
18:39:49 <cockliuser[m]> PredatorONormies: Some guy, u/xmr808 on reddit
18:41:02 <PredatorONormies> oh
18:41:23 <PredatorONormies> I bet people can have some sort of reputation and shit
18:41:33 <PredatorONormies> But then again - that could easily be faked
18:42:02 <PredatorONormies> monerobull[m]1, it is the end of my life for me, too.. so I hope it gets better.. but I cannot stop using computers.. even if just a little bit
18:42:15 <PredatorONormies> DanIsnotthemanBr, it's the dryness
18:42:43 <PredatorONormies> My eyes are too dry.. might be because of me not watching what I eat, as a vegetarian, thinking it was okay the 1st few months
18:42:47 <lasthayek[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "lasthayek: It is in the interest..." <- The more we contribute to the network, the higher the price of monero in fiat. So as a miner, I want price increase to continue. As long as the price is going up, I will be earning higher block rewards in terms of USD 
18:43:01 <PredatorONormies> smathy[m], I do not use Monero to profit, I use it for independence, privacy and anonymity.
18:43:31 <lasthayek[m]> <smathy[m]> "Miners or anyone holding XMR has..." <- I agree with you I understand the utility 
18:43:55 <DanIsnotthemanBr> When you look at your screen you dont blink as much. So your eyes dry
18:43:55 <bridgerton[m]> <᷾s> @monerobull For Matrix replies, the message being replied to doesn't show up on discord 😛
18:44:16 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Discord💩
18:44:18 <Rucknium[m]> I also don't think that individual miners really benefit from increases in XMR exchange rate since then new miners will join, cutting into the share of the block reward earned by current miners. It's a free entry industry.
18:44:21 <lasthayek[m]> <Pcubensis[m]> "> <@lasthayek:matrix.org> I..." <- Not a single miner, but say very rich people who can afford mining and media manipulation 
18:44:42 <PredatorONormies> also please ping me - I have to looks as little as possible.. even just chatting right now is ruining my shitty eyes
18:44:53 <PredatorONormies> DanIsnotthemanBr, that's not all there is to it, of course.
18:44:57 <lasthayek[m]> PredatorONormies: I also want to do that, but I have concerns of the incentive mechanism 
18:45:10 <monerobull[m]1> bridgerton[m]: I'll check if it's even supported s
18:45:33 <Pcubensis[m]> lasthayek[m]: When more people are buying than selling, the price goes up. What do you mean contributing to the network? Running a node doesn't alter the price, mining can for example some miners may sell to make fiat profits and there is a block reward increasing supply, but if a miner wanted to "inflate" the price they would need to be able to cause a mass buy event and then theoretically set a Take profit that would dump when that
18:45:33 <Pcubensis[m]> price was hit. In theory it could be done but would require a lot of buying power
18:46:10 <PredatorONormies> lasthayek[m], same here
18:46:23 <PredatorONormies> Oh well - none that bigger than fiat sites xD
18:46:27 <PredatorONormies> well a little, but..
18:46:30 <smathy[m]> PredatorONormies: "anything else that's of value to them" includes the goods and services you want to exchange for your monero, are you really claiming that you have no incentive for the value of monero vs those things to increase?
18:46:38 <PredatorONormies> repution can probably be borked on each
18:47:03 <PredatorONormies> unless the site somehow checkes the receiver's address and correlates whether or not it matches the sender's one
18:47:13 <PredatorONormies> unless they are a traveler - this should work
18:47:48 <PredatorONormies> My eyes hurt.. I'm going off, sorry
18:48:17 <PredatorONormies> I'd risk it, of course, btw
18:48:35 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Risk it for the biscuit
18:51:31 <Pcubensis[m]> <lasthayek[m]> "I also want to do that, but I..." <- There are some concerns about that. The tail emissions exist so there is always a reward for mining unlike bitcoin. If for example the price of XMR were to go up tremendously against fiat currency, even a small amount of XMR would incentive. Should the price of XMR dramatically fall and the tail emissions became basically worthless i think a lot of miners would fall off but not all. In
18:51:31 <Pcubensis[m]> some countries the mining reward may still be significant, there may be miners willing to take a loss. If miners drop because of loss of profitability, that makes the reward larger for the remaining miners, eventually the larger reward may attract others in to mining again.
18:51:31 <Pcubensis[m]> I think the main concern is that the reward is worthless and not worth it for most miners leading to 51% attack
18:52:14 <lasthayek[m]> <Pcubensis[m]> "When more people are buying than..." <- As a miner, my incentive is to push people to buy, let’s say, bitcoin. The higher the bitcoin price, the higher my share for each block mined in terms of fiat. So I want more people to buy bitcoin, as a miner, so my share will be bigger. 
18:52:14 <lasthayek[m]> I cannot substitute it with Monero as there is a privacy utility in it. So this argument may not be valid for Monero
18:52:58 <Pcubensis[m]> > <@lasthayek:matrix.org> As a miner, my incentive is to push people to buy, let’s say, bitcoin. The higher the bitcoin price, the higher my share for each block mined in terms of fiat. So I want more people to buy bitcoin, as a miner, so my share will be bigger. 
18:52:58 <Pcubensis[m]> > 
18:52:58 <Pcubensis[m]> > I cannot substitute it with Monero as there is a privacy utility in it. So this argument may not be valid for Monero
18:52:58 <Pcubensis[m]> I mean yes but with the volume of transactions i think you would have to have a pretty huge following with deep pockets to really move the price
18:53:13 <smathy[m]> lasthayek: what are your concerns?  That a small group of people have the capability to push the market significantly?  Yes, that's more of a concern than it would be for some other instrument that's trading at higher volumes.  The lower the volume, the more any security is vulnerable to that.  Worth saying that I don't think that's a realistic concern for the XMR volumes vs eg. the general volatility.
18:53:48 <lasthayek[m]> <smathy[m]> ""anything else that's of value..." <- I don’t question privacy argument - I wish there would be a better currency than Monero
18:54:29 <Pcubensis[m]> lasthayek[m]: There probably will be eventually, but what issue does monero have that other cryptos and fiat don't have?
18:57:11 <smathy[m]> lasthayek[m]: I don't know what "better" means here.  Do I wish that a decentralized currency could instantly be accepted by every vendor I wish to engage with WITHOUT the state getting involved and fucking it all up anyway?  Sure.  But y'know, I also wanna play 1st base for the yankees.
18:57:55 <Pcubensis[m]> smathy[m]: The perfect currency doesn't exist, there will always be compromises
19:00:48 <smathy[m]> Pcubensis[m]: When I said I didn't know what "better" meant, I also don't know what "perfect" means in your comment :)  Ie. I don't know what criteria you're using?  In the criteria that are important to me it certainly can be perfect.
19:02:13 <Pcubensis[m]> smathy[m]: I was agreeing with you. No currency will check off everything we want or need.
19:02:16 <Pcubensis[m]> of course its subjective
19:02:48 <Pcubensis[m]> But imo monero is the best currently, but it has flaws
19:06:22 <lasthayek[m]> <smathy[m]> "lasthayek: what are your..." <- My concern is we are being emotional while making decisions. Miners will always have the incentive to push the price up, designing and distributing the best story via media, social media, communities. 
19:06:22 <lasthayek[m]> Here the narrative is privacy and anonymity, in ETH groups it is about smart contract, technology etc.
19:06:22 <lasthayek[m]> I respect, hmthr arguments make sense to me, especially for Monero case as I personally see utility in Monero as well.
19:06:22 <lasthayek[m]> However, the incentive of miners to push the people to buy more remains the same for each crypto. Each time we buy, the price goes up, we put extra fiat in miners’ pockets. 
19:07:06 <Pcubensis[m]> > <@lasthayek:matrix.org> My concern is we are being emotional while making decisions. Miners will always have the incentive to push the price up, designing and distributing the best story via media, social media, communities.... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/93e86d5b87024e4b65a40745c5b5579df3ec56f7>)
19:07:11 <lasthayek[m]> <Pcubensis[m]> "> <@lasthayek:matrix.org> As a..." <- That’s the technical part. I see big amounts of money in my job. I think it is doable by its nature 
19:07:29 <Pcubensis[m]> If it was that easy to move the price, then it would have been manipulated ages ago
19:08:04 <bridgerton[m]> <kemosabe> every owner benefits when price goes up.
19:08:13 <Pcubensis[m]> We aren't just run on emotions, we want a private currency and that's what monero offers, hence why we are here
19:08:14 <bridgerton[m]> <kemosabe> is there a problem you're describing?
19:08:46 <lasthayek[m]> <Pcubensis[m]> "There probably will be eventuall..." <- I am not questioning Monero. I am not capable of making a full comparison. I see smart people using Monero and I buy their arguments , maybe I am wrong too
19:09:48 <lasthayek[m]> <smathy[m]> "I don't know what "better" means..." <- Hahaha. I want to the best for everyone, if something is better than Monero we should switch to that, IMHO
19:09:57 <bridgerton[m]> <kemosabe> ok i guess i'm wondering what the thesis is
19:11:22 <lasthayek[m]> <smathy[m]> "When I said I didn't know what..." <- Let’s say there will be a more private and anonymous currency in future. I think we should be able to switch to that in order to be accountable with Monero today 
19:12:06 <smathy[m]> lasthayek: not just miners have that incentive, any holder of XMR has that incentive.  "Each time we buy, the price goes up, we put extra fiat in miners’ pockets." - so it's important to be precise here, each time there's any transaction we put XMR in the miners' pockets.  If they convert to fiat then now they're incentivized to talk the crypto DOWN so they can buy it back.
19:12:12 <Pcubensis[m]> Yes, i would move. You want whatever provides you the best privacy
19:13:07 <smathy[m]> lasthayek: again though, those movements really aren't what's driving the price changes vs the volatility of a low volume instrument being speculated on.
19:16:46 <as2333> lasthayek[m] why are you singling out miners? All monero 'holders' may have an incentive to manipulate the price. And the bigger they are the more ability to do it.
19:16:53 <smathy[m]> <lasthayek[m]> "Let’s say there will be a more..." <- Nothing would stop you switching to that in the future.
19:18:05 <smathy[m]> smathy[m]: In fact, the whole idea of currencies competing on merit/features rather than being dictated by the state, is an important characteristic of decentralized currencies.
20:21:59 <xmrfn[m]> <smathy[m]> "In fact, the whole idea of..." <- And yet, 90% of people think "cryptocurrency" means "Bitcoin", while another 9% know it also means "ETH and DOGE" </eyeroll>
20:21:59 <xmrfn[m]> The truth will out eventually; in the meantime, people come to Monero because it meets their real-world, non-speculative needs.
20:28:20 <Pcubensis[m]> > <@xmrfn:monero.social> And yet, 90% of people think "cryptocurrency" means "Bitcoin", while another 9% know it also means "ETH and DOGE" </eyeroll>
20:28:20 <Pcubensis[m]> > The truth will out eventually; in the meantime, people come to Monero because it meets their real-world, non-speculative needs.
20:28:20 <Pcubensis[m]> XMR is definitely the closest thing to an actual currency. But i think BTC and ETH have their uses as well, although i think XMR does most things better than BTC i am still following the development of lightning network as i find it interesting. I find ethereum interesting too and even know how to code smart contracts a bit. I'm really excited for XMR-BTC atomic swaps
20:35:40 <xmrfn[m]> I struggle to find a single usecase where BTC is the best currently-available design solution. For one, it doesn't scale and can't be made to scale.
20:35:40 <xmrfn[m]> For ETH, I can see uses for decentralized trustless code execution. Again out of scalability limits, I cannot see the EVM or anything like it as the solution to that problem. In addition, I cannot see any reason why the decentralized trustless code execution engine has to also natively be a (non-fungible) currency.
20:37:13 <bridgerton[m]> <kemosabe> network effect. and the reliability that it will not change underneathe you
20:38:05 <Pcubensis[m]> > <@xmrfn:monero.social> I struggle to find a single usecase where BTC is the best currently-available design solution. For one, it doesn't scale and can't be made to scale.
20:38:05 <Pcubensis[m]> > 
20:38:05 <Pcubensis[m]> > For ETH, I can see uses for decentralized trustless code execution. Again out of scalability limits, I cannot see the EVM or anything like it as the solution to that problem. In addition, I cannot see any reason why the decentralized trustless code execution engine has to also natively be a (non-fungible) currency.
20:38:05 <Pcubensis[m]> I don't think BTC is the best in any single usecase. However, it is the most widespread and still upholds decentralized, trustless execution. I just watch the development. There are still interesting concepts coming out of it. I think scaling is an issue with all crypto.
20:38:41 <Pcubensis[m]> Once we get BTC/XMR atomic swaps then XMR benefits from the widespread acceptance of BTC
20:39:00 <great_taste> btc has proven to be resilient thus it gained a lot of trust
20:39:08 <xmrfn[m]> BTC is like USD: All it has going for it is that everyone uses it.
20:39:23 <great_taste> no other coin has experienced the level of usage/stress btc has
20:39:39 <bridgerton[m]> <kemosabe> haven't atomic swaps been out already for a couple years?
20:40:10 <Pcubensis[m]> bridgerton[m]: If they have I've just completely missed out
20:40:10 <xmrfn[m]> Mayeb we should say: once there's a simple app for it
20:40:22 <xmrfn[m]> s/Mayeb/Maybe/, s/simple/_simple_/, s/it/atomic swaps/
20:40:37 <Pcubensis[m]> xmrfn[m]: Which one?
20:41:08 <xmrfn[m]> any one, preferably that people can use on their personal surveillance device
20:41:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not so private if you need remote nodes to use it
20:41:55 <Pcubensis[m]> I've been following this: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/355
20:42:10 <xmrfn[m]> Remote nodes are IMO Private Enough for a=mobile txns
20:42:11 <Pcubensis[m]> Atomic swaps directly in monero code
20:42:16 <xmrfn[m]> s/a=//
20:42:52 <xmrfn[m]> The whole brilliance of atomic swaps is no supporting code is needed in BTC not XMR
20:42:59 <xmrfn[m]> s/not/nor/
20:43:35 <xmrfn[m]> (well, not now that Taproot exists, yadda)
20:43:46 <as2333> btc doesnt scale and monero is even worse since it has bigger transactions 
20:45:08 <apotheon> Monero's transaction scaling is far better than BTC's; it's storage scaling that's the issue for Monero in that regard.
20:45:11 <xmrfn[m]> txn size is just one dimension in a multidimesional problem. Others include proving and construction speed/memory. True that Monero is not hyper scalable.
20:45:18 <apotheon> For now, we can just "buy a bigger drive".
20:45:29 <apotheon> (and wait a little bit for sync)
20:45:36 <as2333> it's obvious that monero is less scalable than bitcoin
20:45:56 <xmrfn[m]> "Buy a bigger drive" is in fact a perfectly reasonable strategy and will be for the forseeable future 
20:45:57 <bridgerton[m]> <kemosabe> you're saying storage devices don't get bigger?
20:45:58 <bridgerton[m]> <kemosabe> and pruned nodes don't exist?
20:45:58 <bridgerton[m]> or that monero blocks don't get bigger?
20:47:32 <Pcubensis[m]> xmrfn[m]: Which app do you use for swaps?
22:34:53 <Pcubensis[m]> I just finished syncing the blockchain. Now I want to use the torsocks wrapper. Do I need to kill the monerod process and then rerun the command or is there a way to do it without stopping monerod?
22:37:17 <bridgerton[m]> <kemosabe> just kill it and relaunch
22:38:12 <Pcubensis[m]> bridgerton[m]: 👍
22:48:30 <Pcubensis[m]> <bridgerton[m]> "<kemosabe> just kill it and..." <- Ok, its not letting me kill it. I run ```kill <PID>``` and ```pkill monerod``` but everytime i run ```ps aux | grep monerod``` its still there with the same PID
23:03:46 <nioc> bigger drive?  I have a small SSD that I have been waiting years for monero to fill up
23:30:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> <apotheon> "For now, we can just "buy a..." <- Better
23:30:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> http://waw7epjul5xeacm4niblpgihdtg3atxyqekrlgz5spynqosdzftnbfad.onion/index.php?article=hdd_sync