02:18:31 <BobSacmanto[m]> Is the allark website a scam?
02:20:20 <plowsof11> Never heard of it - Tommy from allark 
02:20:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> One of those websites thst recommends services says its not
02:20:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> XMR.directory
02:21:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not that one
02:22:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://monerica.com
02:22:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> This one
02:22:54 <plowsof11> it has a green tick next to it 😄
02:22:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you get scammed, let monerica know 😅
02:23:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> plowsof11: 100% trustable. Verified
02:23:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> (/s. Enter at your own risk)
02:24:15 <plowsof11> the only negative comments ive seen (who knows anymore, everything can be fud) - was some reddit users saying the visa cards expire sooner than expected
02:24:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> I never liked the spammy posts, too noisy to pay attention to what is real
02:30:43 <BobSacmanto[m]> Can you buy lots of monero from allark easily? Or only sell monero?
05:47:23 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Trust dont verify
06:13:26 <rbrunner> Finally some creative mordinals with "Monero Rocks Collection", looks like 100 rocks are planned, and somebody in their wisdom decided rock pictures need high resolution, the pics are ~10 KB
06:36:07 <kayabanerve[m]> rbrunner: Those'll never catch on. My Etherrock on the other hand?
06:36:43 <kayabanerve[m]> https://twitter.com/EtherRock/status/1639006450956599298
06:38:34 <rbrunner> Oh, these pictures aren't even original then. Didn't know. I am sure I don't take that NFT story serious enough.
08:15:26 <LZA_MENACE> Thx for ping selsta plowsof- out of town atm w no laptop. Can fix tomorrow 
08:15:36 <LZA_MENACE> plowsof ^
10:23:51 <rbrunner> So ... if I buy one of those new pet rock mordinals, I hold bragging rights to something that was kind of stolen from an Ethereum based NFT?
13:03:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://mordinals.org
13:09:43 <sech1> wtf, it's rocks now
13:11:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://mordinals.org/item/2072
13:11:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> And moneromemes.com
13:12:30 * ofrnxmr[m] uploaded an image: (177KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/monero.social/AiJLchfeaPDHoQwnEGBOIFzs/c9ew7k5s8ord8ryr.jpg >
13:13:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> The "punk" nfts seem to be taking into account the 255byte proposed limit
13:14:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> Seem to be already* taking into account
13:41:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> sech1:  https://nitter.net/sethforprivacy/status/1639259605455843330 1gb mempool
13:42:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> (Seems seth edit his node to raise the limit to 1gb, but still growing lol) 
13:43:43 <plowsof11> 255 byte limit is proposed to btc right? monero will be 32bytes?
13:47:59 <plowsof11> a node running the tx_extra limit (next version of monero) rejected a jpg which had 1 grey pixel as it was too large
13:52:56 <aiena> is csminer still good for mining monero
13:53:06 <aiena> or are there better alternatives now
14:04:11 <sech1> aiena XMRig
14:04:25 <sech1> csminer doesn't work with Monero
14:04:53 <aiena> Ok. I am syncing my blockchain. Can you use the wallet p2p mining with a puned chain?
14:05:02 <aiena> pruned
14:05:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yes
14:06:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> The blockchain must be fully synced before you can begin mining, but yes.
14:06:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> Set daemon to "true" in the config
14:29:40 <rbrunner> plowsof11: "monero will be 32bytes?" Not sure what you mean. The point release to arrive soon will have a limit of 1060 bytes.
14:30:46 <rbrunner> On the table for the middle term is either no more tx_extra at all, or one restricted more that those 1060 bytes, e.g. 256 bytes
14:35:18 <rbrunner> A one-pixel JPEG file resulted in a 739 byte file for me. That should have room in 1060 bytes. But maybe not with some mordinals overhead?
14:39:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> The punk nfts seem to be under 255 bytes
14:40:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> (1.7kb, 1in2out transactions)
14:41:28 <rbrunner> Yeah, but I guess they are PNGs, not JPEGs
14:43:27 <rbrunner> (plowsof11 mentioned a 1-pixel JPEG that didn't want to fit, what wondered me a bit.)
14:43:32 <plowsof11> i attempted to send a pixel using the mordinal wallet and was rejected, thats all i know 
14:43:35 <plowsof11> the jpg was maybe 125 bytes 
14:45:53 <plowsof11> im referring to "which still leaves 32 bytes of space for some custom data to send to each recipient." from tevador @ https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/8733
14:46:13 <plowsof11> assuming that 32 bytes is for rocks?
14:47:54 <rbrunner> No. Remember, we have now regular tx stuff still also in tx_extra. Those 32 bytes are what is left per output if you have a 16-out tx
14:48:35 <rbrunner> And well, we don't really want sending around JPEGs to work, so if even a single-pixel one doesn't work, tough :)
14:49:02 <plowsof11> ah thanks, i get it now 
14:49:04 <RavFX> The limit is "32bytes per output" or "255bytes per TX"
14:49:39 <plowsof11> for some reason my pixel was denied (very small jpg) <255bytes iirc 
14:50:36 <aiena> You can make inscriptions on monero too?
14:51:09 <rbrunner> Those rocks are around 10 KB each, because stolen from Ethereum NFTs, and everybody wants their rocks in highres
14:51:38 <plowsof11> there was already a Mooonero rock #1 minted long ago 
14:51:39 <rbrunner> aiena: You mean include simple text? Of course.
14:52:31 <aiena> simple text/imAGES
14:52:53 <rbrunner> I thought that Monero punks are already pretty dumb, but those rocks took me by surprise
14:53:41 <rbrunner> You mean bitmapped text?
14:54:17 <aiena> not sure
14:54:49 <rbrunner> I am really tempted to mint the same rock 10 times now as 10 mordinals, just to mock the concept of "NFT"
14:54:50 <aiena> how can you inscribe simple text on a monero
14:55:19 <aiena> i guess your write it on a micronero
14:55:25 <ceetee[m]> introducing: shade™ own your unique favorite color out of 16.7mio possible combinations! Have it etched permanently as a colorful pixel into the blockchain! Buy now, limited quantity available!
14:55:48 <aiena> lol
15:05:17 <JacobGonzales[m]> so what's the deal with all the monero drama?
15:08:28 <bridgerton[m]> <GenericMage> This is going to sound dumb but... You could split the jpg into pieces, then have transaction formats inside tx_extra.... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/8897485339cab171c2f312931caf1eae1e6eb116>)
15:12:07 <rooter0_> Finally have my 50 CPU xmrig VM screaming like it should.
15:45:32 <rooter0_> Alllrighty then.
17:19:33 <xmrfn[m]> bridgerton: Not dumb. No matter how small we make tx_extra, every value in the available bytes *could* be referenced by some offchain system, and interpreted to mean anything that chain wants.
17:24:52 <TheDisruptiveCol> Why are people trying to ruin XMR with NFTs 
17:25:12 <xmrfn[m]> I think they honestly believe they are adding value
17:25:44 <TheDisruptiveCol> These people clearly don't mine or run nodes.    
17:25:54 <xmrfn[m]> And I have to admit, it's clever how it works https://mordinals.gitbook.io/handbook/how-does-it-work
17:25:55 <greenpillow11[m]> <xmrfn[m]> "bridgerton: Not dumb. No..." <- Besides, tx_extra will be used by some crosschain dex’es working on integrating Monero. It can’t be too small 
17:26:37 <RavFX> They also don't use monero as a payment system as if they did, they would know that they are actually making poison
17:27:03 <TheDisruptiveCol> They are basically just helping the glowies and chainanalysis at this point.   
17:27:56 <RavFX> They probably own bitcoin and ETH and would like xmr to die so we move on there shitchain to pump it more
17:30:22 <xmrfn[m]> But yes anything that introduces low-entropy data on the chain reduces privacy for all, and that is why Mordinals must find another place to go or a way to work with a smaller data structure
18:21:28 <rbrunner> It's a pitty that the mordinals transfer system is not yet up. If people see that almost nobody wants to trade and buy those things and push prices up, most of them will loose interest immediately.
18:22:47 <rbrunner> If speculation fails to materialize the whole scheme will fall apart all on its own pretty soon.
18:29:48 <xmrfn[m]> Still a potential vector for bloat-attack is closing with the upcoming patch
18:30:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> I believe the tools are intentionally not fully functional
18:30:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> They dont build rpc, for example 
18:30:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> xmrfn[m]: If mining pool update 
18:31:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> Otherwise you can submit to a pool that hasnt updated and wait for them to mine it
18:43:59 <kowalabearhugs-[> If all only all major mining pools update then it will drastically reduce ability to mint, no?
18:52:24 <RavFX> If it stay in the mempool, then eventually a miner not in one of these pools will mine it, so at the end it will change nothing and the poison will still endup in the blockchain. Will only take more time.
18:57:03 <kowalabearhugs-[> Yes, and further degrading the mordinal experience is part of keeping it at bay
19:16:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> Some pools are rather unresponsive as well
19:18:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> ^ could be language barrier 
19:31:52 <kowalabearhugs-[> Yes, a complication that can be resolved through the next HF. Most major pools were convinced to update their block templates
19:57:22 * ofrnxmr[m] uploaded an image: (147KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/monero.social/XNLtVxabRpxVazAZiicXPrNR/1ehskdqes2hyav8h.jpg >
19:58:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> Nanopool, hashvault and xmrpool.eu have updated or already were running better than-nothing
19:58:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> The rest have of the unmarked pools have not
19:59:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> 2miners and kryptex responded but had not updated when I last checked a few days ago
20:26:27 <merope> <RavFX> "If it stay in the mempool..." <- True, but if their experience gets degraded enough then people will get bored/annoyed and stop using that crap
20:26:57 <RavFX> Or just post anyway them and wait a little
20:28:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> Morbinal folks will keep on. Maybe tthat will convince pools to update
20:28:29 <merope> But you're ruining their instant gratification feedback
20:29:06 <M5M400> if you want NFT shizzle just wait for tari to hit the market
20:29:13 <M5M400> leave our currency alone!
20:30:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Since 2miners either... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/71c507231eb970b4cbdeb855b46b5b55dfec2093>)
20:31:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> merope: Yeah, they're just angry
20:32:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://nitter.net/m0rdinals/status/1639220588828057601
20:34:06 <merope> lmao
20:34:37 <merope> > I just don't want it to diminish the privacy features of the chain.
20:34:37 <merope> Proceeds to implement the most privacy-harmful thing that can bloat the chain the most
20:34:59 <merope> Genius
20:35:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its almost honest 
20:35:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> Like, if they were telling the truth, it would be honest 
20:35:57 <merope> That's how they sneak the biggest lies through
20:37:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> > Therefore, there's no reason to spam the chain just yet.
20:37:53 * Alex|LocalMonero uploaded an image: (1386KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/agoradesk.com/odZuVtbkbWfdEVDnXuGxhrIw/image.png >
20:39:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> > Instead it was decided to put a 1kb limit on tx_extra size. This means that a 50kb image now needs to be pieced together with 50 transactions, multiplying the number of non-fungible transactions by 50 for no apparent reason
20:39:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> My adversary Sir. Welcome to monero.
20:39:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> 🍽️
20:39:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Mr*
20:41:42 <RavFX> It will bar for more anoying for the spammers to split the nft into 50 TX (that 10 confirmation per output you got to spend?)
20:42:32 <rbrunner> "And please, next time ping me before making any more changes, for the love of God" Pretty high horse
20:42:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> 16 out doesnt hurt my privacy 
20:42:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> That a whole different topic about standardized outputs though 
20:44:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: 99% that is not me (its am exchange.. or morbinal reeeeee). 1% it is a self spend by me to make change 
20:44:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> Numbers verified by a fact checker ^
20:47:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> Standardizing inputs, I need to look back at what has been said already, but I dont recall how one would deal with consolidations 
21:00:22 <nioc> Tari?  yeah it will be released in 2020
21:00:32 <nioc> soon™
21:01:03 <RavFX> I remember reading about Tari.  I just... can't remember anything about it lol
21:05:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> It has a nice wallet 
21:05:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> And can be merge mined with xmrb
21:06:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> Would be nice to merge mine with wownero 
21:13:29 <DanIsnotthemanBr> If you want nfts get a picture book and put it in that
21:19:15 <sp00kins> What's the deal with mordinals ? Why does anyone want to do NFT-like stuff on monero ?
21:19:40 <rbrunner> Greed. Isn't more complicated than that.
21:21:43 <RavFX> Yay, unfungible shiat on fungible crypto, World upside down, they just want to poison Monero
21:25:54 <sp00kins> I see. Well hopefully the trend dies out.
21:33:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> <RavFX> "Yay, unfungible shiat on..." <- They should fork xmr with 1gb txextra
21:33:57 <RavFX> Yeah, was thinking about that. If they fork it they can do what they want with it and improve it for that purpose
21:47:04 <anarkiocrypto[m]> As an update to my post yesterday, here is the Bitejo source code: https://codeberg.org/Anarkio/bitejo As a warning, it's messy, low quality and most of it should probably be rewritten...
21:58:36 <kayabanerve[m]> I'm pissed off myself at mordinals now
21:59:00 <kayabanerve[m]> What they posted is the stupidest take possible to the point I'm about to call for banning tx extra
21:59:24 <kayabanerve[m]> They could at least use sane steganography, but also, *why monero*
21:59:36 <kayabanerve[m]> *there's no reason to use monero over btc or ltc for this bs*
21:59:48 <kayabanerve[m]> This also contributes nothing back to Monero as a currency
22:01:27 <kayabanerve[m]> I'd also point out their suggestion, to blacklist outputs, is a non-starter.
22:01:59 <kayabanerve[m]> It requires a full node OR lets remote nodes strip privacy from any output they want (as never using it as a decoy means whatever uses it must be using it as a real spend)
22:26:10 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort> > I don't mind if it's expensive or complicated
22:26:10 <bridgerton[m]> So I assume the people running mordinals will continue even if the very chain they are running on says "no". Kind of a weird hill to die on, considering I don't there has been any sale of mordinals made.
22:29:59 <kayabanerve[m]> <kayabanerve[m]> "It requires a full node OR..." <- Eh. With current decoy selection flow, the complexity isn't too much different. It just forces anyone potentially using it as a decoy to download the full embedded file which is large and annoying.
22:33:31 <Rucknium[m]> kayabanerve: Could you explain further?
22:49:39 <kayabanerve[m]> The current algorithm takes a distribution, a list of quantities, and selects a specific number. It then gets the output info for that number, and the larger tx to make sure it isn't time locked. When it gets the larger TX, it could detect if it's a mordinal. The complexity is the same. It just means downloading a giant TX.
22:52:28 <Rucknium[m]> kayabanerve: I thought it just got the output public keys from the daemon
22:53:01 <Rucknium[m]> Anyway, I think we should avoid coinbase outputs: https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/109
22:54:36 <kayabanerve[m]> No, it *should* additionally get TX info to assert a lack of active time locks, though I'll note I don't work with wallet2 and will point to @jbernan. It'd be accordingly possible to avoid coinbases there.
22:55:44 <Rucknium[m]> Wouldn't the daemon just not give those outputs as candidates from the beginning?
23:05:49 <kayabanerve[m]> It gives the output distribution, which is distinct from a list of candidates. 
23:06:27 <kayabanerve[m]> If there's 100 outputs over 7 blocks, the distribution may look like 10,15,10,10,15,10,30 
23:07:46 <kayabanerve[m]> Monero selects from there, then gets output info. the server could decline to provide output info if time locked/coinbase. The client should independently get that info though, due to the concerns I noted above.
23:09:00 <kayabanerve[m]> There is commentary on how you won't know, from the distribution, how many in a block are miner outputs and how many aren't. Doing the check later would *potentially trigger retries* which are damaging to privacy.
23:09:29 <kayabanerve[m]> It's something we so far tolerate for timelocks, which are rare.
23:10:06 <kayabanerve[m]> I'd again call to confirm this with someone else.
23:36:35 <eudaimon36[m]> Hey, getting the following error: 5:11415. Anyone have suggestions? In the middle of a 1 hour trade... Perfect time for problems, lol
23:37:01 <eudaimon36[m]> "Coudn't open wallet: Unable to open device 5:11415""
23:38:15 <merope> Are you trying to use a hardware wallet?
23:38:24 <eudaimon36[m]> yep, Ledger
23:38:43 <merope> Is the device properly connected and recognized by your computer?
23:38:51 <eudaimon36[m]> yes
23:39:40 <merope> Have you tried plugging it out and back in, and reopening the wallet software?
23:39:59 <eudaimon36[m]> no, will try now
23:42:35 <eudaimon36[m]> merope: That worked, thank you! I was kinda freaking out, to say the least, haha. 
23:42:51 <eudaimon36[m]> Don't think I have had that little glitch yet, but now I know.
23:43:25 <merope> Works 99% of the time, it works every time
23:43:39 <merope> Words, how do they work?
23:43:56 <merope> Anyway, glad that fixed it! :D
23:44:58 <eudaimon36[m]> Yea, it is moments like these that keep the timid from crypto! One must be somewhat daring, especially if not highly technically skilled
23:46:00 <eudaimon36[m]> audentis Fortuna iuvat
23:46:02 <merope> Just some good old turning it off and on again
23:46:10 <eudaimon36[m]> haha
23:46:29 <eudaimon36[m]> and then if not that, a good smack
23:46:32 <merope> Though I do understand the extra layer of paranoia, given the fact that that little device is all that connects you to your money
23:46:32 <eudaimon36[m]> "bad wallet!"
23:47:07 <eudaimon36[m]> it's a good motive for learning
23:56:27 <xmrack[m]> kayabanerve: are there any known defenses to steganography with ring signatures or no?