00:26:11 Could anyone help me find the hashrate of a Tesla K80? I'd check myself, but I had to salvage parts from my K80 PC for my main server. 00:27:50 Just sell it and buy XMR, you are going to get more than try to mine with that. 00:32:22 RavFX: I've got included electricity, and also use it to run AI, so I'm just gonna mine on it while it's not being used. 00:35:41 Though, I have another question: If I mine another coin that's better on GPUs, then exchange it for XMR, wouldn't I then be able to trade XMR, with the anonymity benefits of XMR, but more profitably? 00:45:01 You are going to waste the electricity. Mining other shitcoin then trading them for XMR could be more profitable yes. You can use exchange like tradeogre to exchange youre shitcoin for XMR without KYC 00:57:56 Hi guys, have you heard about Zymfund on Instagram?, he help people make a lot of money through their Bitcoin software miner, I got almost 10k usd dealing with him. He’s 100% legit 00:59:21 scam 00:59:31 I concure 01:00:33 hi all is there a flooding/vulnerablility in v0.18.1.2-e6f9c0013? my whole instance was blackholed and provider says it was due to traffic on port 18080 01:00:56 Get a non-censuring provider 01:01:06 yea i'll be working on that 01:02:03 Monero need P2P over TLS on port 443 01:03:33 Monero can use quite a lot of bandwidth 01:10:32 it normally uses about between 1-2mb worth of traffic per my graphs, then spiked to 50mb. 01:11:47 I use a between 90 and 200GB a day... (excluding the poison days) 01:56:57 "what drawback? i see none" <- I agree with you and Rucknium regarding excluding coinbase outputs from the DSA 02:11:24 "it normally uses about between 1..." <- ```... (full message at ) 03:29:18 My local node are running hot. Had to code a monitor script to shut down and restart when cooled down 😢... (full message at ) 03:29:56 How come you have no inbound? 03:31:02 It's not the primary node, so it's behind firewall. The primary is the one that just shut down. 03:38:54 BTW. It's Celsius 🔥🚒 08:09:31 hello everyone 08:10:17 i have a AMD EPYC 7502P which I would like to use for monero mining. I found in the internet that it would mine around 10$ XMR a month. That seems super low 😄 Can this be true? 08:10:30 * around 10$ in XMR a 09:25:31 "Anyone know why whonix removed..." <- maintainer of whonix had a ccs for maintaining the monero-gui for two years. the time has run out. he decided to cease maintaining.. 11:48:33 " i have a AMD..." <- isn't that a server cpu?? 15:12:10 Monero v0.18.2.2 binaries are now available at getmonero.org 15:14:36 Not sure if bridges are working, apparently my first message doesn't always go through Matrix. Repeating: Monero v0.18.2.2 binaries are now available at getmonero.org, yay! 15:15:59 bridges working, thanks! 15:17:55 a newbie question but is the kovari routing implemented in monero network ? 15:18:21 you probably mean kovri 15:18:26 and how much i need to be worried about connecting to a remote node 15:18:38 kovri* 15:18:56 or do they call it garlic routing now 15:55:56 called i2p 15:56:23 dependss what you have to be worried about 15:56:50 the same worries you have when connecting to anything - metadata 15:56:54 ip address, time 15:57:14 block height of wallet sync 15:57:35 the biggest worry is the extra monero specific stuff 15:57:49 1. remote nodes can raise you fee to incredible amounts 15:58:23 2. remote nodes can maliciously choose to not broadcast your tx, causing you to rebroadcast it and expose the true spend 16:00:57 i generally use a VPN on my computer to be extra cautious 16:04:23 i can't download the whole blockchain on my computer 16:05:42 "2. remote nodes can maliciously..." <- that sounds scary 16:05:44 but what do i do then ? 16:06:41 use a trusted remote node 16:07:05 there are a few run by community members that are very reliable 16:07:31 like Seths, Cakes, Rinos, Stack wallets, Feather, Plowsof 16:07:51 kevino[m]: Can use mine mtrl77yg3mpuaqe5ggiy5kuqeigywvrl52kwlagsby5thqw7nehpwjqd.onion:18089 16:10:23 i avoid random nodes found laying in dark corners, but ill use most of the ones from community members withiut worry 16:10:44 I think (2) is mitigated by caching rings. If you construct a ring once to spend an output, you do not try to reconstruct it. 16:10:49 ok 16:11:03 so i manually chose one instead of letting it automatically connect to one 16:11:16 Rucknium[m]: if you switch nodes, it does (no?) i could be wronf 16:11:27 That can create its own problems if you construct a ring for an input and then wait a long time to spend it. 16:11:29 kevino[m]: always 16:11:56 Let me pull the logs.... 16:12:19 ofrnxmr[m]: i say this becauae if they dont broadcasr,you have to switch nodes to recoup the funds 16:12:58 when respending you pull new decoys from the new node. 16:12:58 thats how i remember it atm 16:15:26 https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-dev/20220622#c111774 "If you construct a tx on a particular date and then don't submit the tx, then the ring(s) your wallet constructed will be saved on disk and reused if you spend the input in the future" 16:17:07 thats if you use contruct a tx for offline submission 16:17:09 i am in simple mode therefore it didn't allow me to change the node 16:17:15 ie if you have a copy of the contructed tx 16:18:26 kevino[m]: switch to advanced mode 16:18:36 simple mode = auto selecting remote node 16:19:12 ofrnxmr[m]: but it would require me to download the blockchain right ? 16:19:20 nope 16:19:30 ohh 16:19:41 local mode requires tou to download 16:19:56 advanced lets you choose local node vs remote node 16:31:26 how do i know which node can be trusted 16:34:18 that would be a local node 16:35:32 also this not well documented thing in monero-gui guide 16:35:32 ^ 16:35:57 Did y’all hear about the new nvidea cpu? 16:36:13 https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/nvidia-grace-cpu-superchip-architecture-in-depth/ 16:36:13 https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2023/03/21/grace-cpu-energy-efficiency/ 16:36:13 https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/inside-nvidia-grace-cpu-nvidia-amps-up-superchip-engineering-for-hpc-and-ai/ 16:36:15 privacy -risks regarding a simple mode aren't listed 16:36:50 s/regarding/while/, s/a/using/, s/listed/documented./ 16:39:53 simple mode wasnt always thought of as bad 16:40:17 but these days were actively looking into changing it to use only trusted community nodes ala feather 16:41:12 the high fee issue was unknown until it happened, then we looked into how to identify these bad nodes etc 16:41:43 ah it's your agenda again 16:42:43 i still have no idea wtf youre talking about 16:42:43 spit it out or stfu 16:42:47 how is an average user gonna know these risks 16:43:11 who pays me and who are my alts? majesticscam speakup 16:43:12 i thought i am safe using simple mode over a vpn 16:43:31 I'm one of the alts, did you forget? 💢 16:43:39 kevino[m]: thats our problem yes. need to hurry with the simple mode changes 16:43:47 how could i forget 16:44:01 im asking MAJESTIC who he thinks i am 16:44:15 dumbass needs to hurry up and embarass himself 16:44:47 who pays me?? speak 16:44:55 i give you permission to expose my as 16:45:03 kevino: Some risks are "documented" here: https://www.monerooutreach.org/breaking-monero/remote-nodes.html 16:45:46 the whole breaking monero series on youtube is a good place to learn about monero issues 16:45:58 there is a high fee warning kevino. if you see that just don't click OK 16:46:54 what password do i enter while manually entering node 16:47:01 and i think when the high fee happened we recouped the money? 16:47:06 vpn is for playing fortnite with low ping to avoid bans cus you're cheating. Use an actual anonymity network if you want privacy 16:47:14 mining pool that got it still had it iirc 16:50:07 plowsof11: i don't see it 16:51:27 only happens if youre trying to send funds through a node who sends back a ridiculous fee 16:52:44 i haven't faced high fees yet 16:53:08 GUI warns about high fee transfer, so it's safe 16:56:17 unless yo uare sending a mordinal, high fees are rare 16:57:48 how do i add a node manually :/ 16:57:48 unable to connect to any 16:58:06 what should i put in password field 16:58:11 nothing 16:58:20 which wallet are you using? 16:58:28 don't add anything in username / password 17:00:36 monero-gui 17:00:56 which node are you trying to connect to? 17:01:10 seth and cake 17:01:50 i have set transaction priority to automtic 17:02:42 i didn't put anything in username and password 17:04:40 entering the host name didn't work so i put the actual IP and it works now 19:29:44 "but these days were actively..." <- I strongly recommend that simple mode is eradicated and forces people who want to use remote nodes to manually connect to one that they know of. So noobs must look online for a node before they can sync. 19:37:46 > <@karano:poddery.com> how do i add a node manually :/ 19:37:46 > unable to connect to any 19:37:46 I will answer your question as a fellow n00b. It's very simple so just don't be ADD and follow these simple steps. Step 1 = Have Monero GUI downloaded on your device and up to date. Step 2 = Switch from simple mode to advanced node (I did this a while ago, so I forgot how to do it but it's relatively straightforward) Step 3 = Go to the bottom bar on the menu of the GUI wallet and it should say something like settings (I think) and 19:37:46 click on this bar. Step 4 = In the middle of the screen you will see a "nodes" section, click on it. Step 5 = at the bottom of the screen there should be an option to "add remote node" Step 6 = in the address section put http://node.sethforprivacy.com in the port section put 18089 19:40:02 ofrnxmr, do you happen to know the maximum amount that the blocksize could expand in 1 years time? I know it's a random question, but was just curious as you are very responsive and seem pretty omniscient regarding Monero 19:48:44 spackle_xmr: do you have your link? 19:51:25 https://github.com/spackle-xmr/Dynamic_Block_Demo/tree/main/Media 19:51:31 see the gifs 19:51:56 I will inspect and see if my monkey brain can understand it 19:52:57 heya so this may sound dumb but uh basically i have patreon, kofi and such since i am uh a freelancer/indie game dev and if people wanna support me extra well thats what they can do :P 19:52:57 now uh what would you recomenned for monnero? like uh i am right now making a wallet mainly for recieving donations how would i do that? 19:55:45 monero is perfect 19:55:56 kuno.bitejo.com 19:55:56 retro, it's very easy just download cake wallet if you use iOS or monero gui if you have a laptop. upon downloading the wallet you will generate a seed phrase, store it securely on a piece of paper, along with yesterday's date (restore height). Then you will connect to a remote node (see xmr.fail nodes list) or run your own full node. wallah you can receive donations 19:56:12 if you need to host a fundraiser 19:56:35 and for a wallet, you can just use cake wallet. save your seed. 19:57:14 unless youre a desktop type of person. featherwallet or monerogui. 19:57:14 feather might be easier to use but updates a lot more often 19:57:15 ofrnxmr, in the gifs, how is the block size measure? what are the denominations 1 mb or 1 gb? 19:57:42 thats a spackle question :P 19:58:51 oof, my main point of inquiry was how much Monero's blocksize could expand if we had a "flood" whether honest or adversarial that persisted 1 year's time 19:59:32 I'd like to learn a bit more about the upper bounds on block expansion, that way I'm less fearful of chain growing big big too fast fast 19:59:36 okay so thats a lot of information dump at once so uh lemme just get featherwallet >w< 20:01:40 feather is a good wallet 👍 20:02:33 articmine would probably know a bit regarding the upperbounds of the dynamic block algo. the dynamic algo in the longterm is a point of uncertainty for me regarding if it is tight enough 20:03:32 Did you check this already? It's a bit dated, but probably good background reading: https://github.com/noncesense-research-lab/Blockchain_big_bang 20:04:15 I am sure that somewhere there must be Articmine's musings around that led to the adjustements with the last hardfork, but I can't find them right now 20:04:21 thanks rbrunner, i Have not i will check it out now 20:05:14 I just remember that *tons* of thought went into this, how to keep a good adjustment capability while putting a cap on long-term growth 20:05:28 So nobody can push it into the terabytes just with a bit of patience 20:06:04 Or, at least it takes so lang that they probably go broke before that :) 20:06:09 *so long 20:08:15 thanks rbrunner I'm glad to hear that people have thoroughly considered this issue. I'm enjoying the guy's summary of the situation so far 20:09:15 Welcome. There is really much hard work done, barely visible to the broad public. But it has its reasons we still stand solid :) 20:11:06 awesome, i'm glad smart people have been on this issue for a while now. because in the long run as long as the algorithm is tighter than ssd and bandwidth improvements, then Monero is set for smooth sailing 20:11:32 if the algorithm is insufficiently tight, then long run this could be problematic 20:22:54 dang upon reading this guy's analysis about what could've happened when there was only the 3 hour memory approx from median of mempool, I'd say it's a miracle that Monero wasn't seriously attacked and beyond reapair lol. of course I haven't got to the punchline yet about what changes have been made to ensure that such attacks, or benign adoption spikes, can't wreck nodes 20:26:26 mitchellpk doing god's work🙏 20:30:08 "I just remember that *tons* of..." <- I finished reading it and it was a very good summary of different solutions. Could you send me a link to, or describe, the solution that was implemented to prevent the big big growth fast fast? 20:56:18 looks like Long Term Median added in 2019 is our current latest and greatest mitigation to longterm big big too fast fast for nodes, I will see if I can do some more reseach and force my monkey brain to understand long term median 21:24:58 fr33_yourself[m] The pricing for Big Bang in the github link is the additional cost if the attacker already has 51%. The actual cost without 51% is closer to 4x the block reward for an all out attack. This compares with a theoretical 0.5 the block reward for 51% for 51%. I would agree that 51% could be more that 0.5 the block reward because for example people could be heating their homes in winter by mining or using electricity that wold otherwise 21:24:58 have gone to waste for example excess solar energy during summer 21:27:40 Still I doubt that the green mining could bring up the cost of 51% 8x to match big bang. 21:27:56 ArticMine: thank you 👍️ My point of inquiry surrounds the Long Term Median and how many "times" the chain or block size can expand per year? I'm reading some comments of Justin, sgp, on github about it now and am backreading in other channels as well. 21:29:26 There was some discussion about this and a compromise was reached of 1.7x for eaxh long term median cycle 21:30:22 Right now, I'm agreeing with Justin's take that a tight 1.4x is nice, and that by going looser may lead to us having to tweak it downward in the futre 21:33:09 sounds good, looks like the math on that is that the max-number of tx's can go up 14x per year. seems a bit big in my opinion. the block size is the big what if (aside from quantum security) for Monero in my opinion. I had imagined a scenario where the developers become like the federal reserve, but instead of constantly twisiting the money supply and interest rate dial, the monero developers are constantly tweaking the long term 21:33:09 medium dial lol 21:34:21 Lowering to 1.4x is not the way to go here. A much better approach is to lower the surge in the short term median from 50x to 20x or even 16x while increasing the growth of the long term median per cycle from 1.7x to 2x 21:34:41 My general take is that Bitcoin volume is limiting but overall reasonable, so allow growing to there relatively cheaply, and then charge considerably more from there for growth. I don't want transactions to cost a fortune, but I'm not going to lose sleep if they cost a dollar 21:35:56 This keeps the growth of the short term median over a year below what it is now while more tightly pricing the increase 21:36:39 I am agnostic on the short term median. Only concerned with a future where Monero can be used by as large a pool of individuals as possible without full nodes dropping offline. But you guys are already way smarter than me. I'm just more-so trying to figure out the current limitations of benign or naughty tx's spikes and how we would respond if things start to get out of hand 21:37:56 sgp[m]: I agree with this take, but am even more extreme. I think there should be consistency between growth from now to Bitcoin and from that point moving forward. IE, aim on the side of tightness 21:40:32 ArticMine: I think I may vaguely understand the point you make here, and if what you say is true then it's probably fine. My opinion is not that relevant becomes I'm still new here but I tend to take the economic lense when analyzing Monero and if it can work long-term. Clearly it can work in the short-term, just that I wonder if Monero is with us 100 years from now? Every design decision made by Monero has been pretty damn good from 21:40:32 my understanding, so I differ to both your judgments that being said... 21:41:04 I am very strongly opposed to emulating Bitcoin here since it have been proven to be a failure for reasons that have nothing to do with adoption outpacing technology 21:41:56 s/becomes/because/, s/differ/defer/ 21:42:11 I agree, but how would a tighter Long Term Median emulate Bitcoin? I'm not sure I follow? 21:42:22 I one want to peg the max growth of Monero to Neilsen's law the proper way to do this is to add a sanity median of 1,000,000 bytes with a cycle greowth of 2 21:43:15 In the this model the long term median is capped to the rate of the sanity median after a surge factor 21:44:01 The proper limiting factor is upstream bandwidth for the nodes 21:44:38 So three median rather than 2 21:45:03 In any case this is actually what I am working on 21:46:27 One can set the sanity median so that a node can handle say 5 Gbps (The highest in Canada is currently 8 Gbps) 21:47:26 ArticMine, let's say that we continue with the 1.7x that we presently have or even boost Long Term Median to 2x. (Time Elapses...) We begin to observe full nodes going offline as we watch the number of transactions to increase 10 to 14x per year. What would be your idea to respond to such a scenario? 21:47:42 5gbps is about $1000/mo bandwidth for industrial use right now 21:47:48 and then allow a 1.5x a year which is basically Neilsen's Law 21:48:06 It is high end residential 21:48:25 I have 2.5 Gbps at home 21:48:31 yeah but that's not high uptime/SLA 21:48:56 if anyone wants a reliable application, they need a better contract than a home ISP agreement 21:48:58 One does not need uptaime fpor a distributed network 21:49:22 from the network perspective sure, but not from a service perspective 21:49:40 if I run an exchange, obviously it needs good uptime for people to be willing to use it 21:50:02 Then you would have redundancy for your connection 21:50:03 cake pay web requires a monero node for example 21:50:27 That is a commercial operation 21:50:59 yeah but ~$1000 a month just for bandwidth to accept XMR is certainly non-ideal and would kill small businesses or force custodial 21:51:16 Furthermore that kind of adoption would cause a enven greater increase in the price of Monero 21:52:02 sgp[m]: This is my end-game concern. In the short-term Monero is very stronk. I just would like to be able to use it for the rest of my life as well. 21:52:04 I think basing anything on such throughput allowance is WAY to high right now, personally 21:52:08 It does not force custodial 21:52:29 What has allready forced custodian the the Bitcoin approach 21:52:42 it's a balancing act of the two 21:52:44 Look no furtherthan Chico and El Salvador 21:52:54 Chivo 21:53:10 it's both tx-cost issues and node cost issues, not just 1 21:53:20 I am proposing a high end residentian connection as the dynamic cap 21:53:28 I even somewhat agree to place a little more cost on nodes, for the benefit of cheaper txs. But it's a balance 21:53:32 residential 21:53:45 reasonably high end residential is 1gbps 21:53:45 ... and also keep in mind the impact on price 21:53:56 above that, few people have 21:54:18 and you probably would get a call from your ISP running the entire 5gbps up 24/7, lol 21:54:33 No if you have unlimited 21:54:55 Plus 5 Gbps is the surce not average 21:54:59 it's no SLA unlimited, not unlimited with SLA 21:55:30 We are talking a 16x - 20x surge over a verage 21:55:38 That is what Visa has to do 21:55:49 there is no such thing as true unlimited, always a bunch of fineprints somewhere 21:55:58 anyway, I think this is way too high to set the standard now. Set at 100 mbps (we're not even close to that) and allow 10-20% growth a year 21:56:11 No 21:56:12 ArticMine: Artic, my understanding looking at Monero from an economic perspective is that until technical advances break through even more then Monero has two options: (1) Be usable for a participating minority to reasonable number of individuals through time with full nodes never falling behind the limitations of bandwitdth and storage space (2) Try to make Monero usable for every individual on planet earth (honorable goal, but too 21:56:12 much to chew presently IMO) and watch nodes *eventually* go offline 21:56:35 There is sim[le too mush negativity coming in from the Bitcoin network here 21:56:36 even 100 mbps would be a huge growth rate 21:57:00 Plus nodes do not have to relay or minier mine if they are stressed 21:57:21 One does not need to had bake limitis into the protocol 21:57:31 I understand what you're saying but I think it's too rash in that scaling direction 21:57:36 hard bak limits 21:57:51 The do it in node relay 21:57:58 Then do it in node relay 21:58:03 not consenssus 21:58:42 well then it's miners who have the real say in the moment then, no? 21:58:56 Both the nodes and the miners 21:58:58 which to some (large) extent they already have 21:59:27 "it's both tx-cost issues and..." <- This is the corrent lense in my opinion. What good is it to pay a small tx fee on a centralized network whose financial ledger's future is in jeopardy due to bandwidth and storage limitations? 21:59:42 https://www.bitcoinunlimited.info/resources/feemarket.pdf 21:59:56 This has been around for like 8 years 22:00:15 https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/129noru/protuguessfocused_monero_community_project/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button 22:01:15 The trouble is that Bitcoin has to limit the blocksize inorder to casue tx fee to skyrocket to try to have fees repplace the falling blcok rewards 22:02:29 ... and the Bitcoin community will not admit the real reason for keeping the blocksize low. It has nothing to do with technology 22:03:17 and everything to do with the falling block rewards as a failed design 22:03:48 "One does not need to had bake..." <- I would potentially be in favor of baking in a tight limitation, but that would never fly with you lol haha. But I do agree that so long as their are big brains like core overseeing Monero's progress, then tweaks to the short term and long term median's can always be made. And if "big" or "controversial" tweaks are made then people can fork and mine on the tweaked algo they think is 22:03:48 best 22:03:51 and the need to replace the falling block rewards with tx fee revenu 22:04:31 > <@ArticMine:libera.chat> One does not need to had bake limitis into the protocol 22:04:31 * I would potentially be in favor of baking in a tight limitation, but that would never fly with you lol haha. But I do agree that so long as there are big brains like you, Core, and our current researchers + developers overseeing Monero's progress, then tweaks to the short term and long term median's can always be made. And if "big" or "controversial" tweaks are made then people can fork and mine on the tweaked algo they think is 22:04:31 best 22:06:12 There is a critical lesson here from Bitcoin, which is why I am opposed to a hard limitation baked into the protocol 22:06:44 The 1 MB blocksize was instituted in 2010 22:06:47 "well then it's miners who have..." <- This could work couldn't it? having Miner's decide when too much is too much? An interesting unseen incentive at play... 22:07:30 That is like 200MB today 22:07:57 more if one goes back to the Bitcoin genesis block in 2009 22:08:07 ... and we are still arguing about this 22:08:40 "... and the Bitcoin community..." <- "The pharisees hated Jesus, because he spoke the Truth." 🙂 22:10:36 Yes that is a great example 22:11:57 This was taken in 1959 when I was 3 years old https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card#/media/File:IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg 22:12:39 It is the same year the BankAmericard the precursor to VISA was launched 22:13:06 So I am a Baby Boomer fighting for the rights of a 2 year old Gen Alpha 22:13:46 correction 2 years old 22:14:48 Try storing 6500 tps of average VISA transactions on punched cards 22:15:06 I am not here to argue necessarily, but state that IMO these are the three "spookiest" elements of Monero as a long-term superior monetary system: (1) the Long-Term Median (2) Quantum Security (a bit of a bugbear) (3) the transaction amount size commitment implementation being a sound and solid as the rock of gibraltar (bugbear of the UTXO believers, in my opinion) 22:16:14 All three of the above are not giant boogeymen lurking 10 years out from now waiting to kill us, but are uncertainties in terms of how things will play out for Monero as years and decades pass 22:17:35 There are sensible way to manage transaction growth. Simplistic solutions from a falied network baked into consensus are not the way 22:18:16 This is what I am strongly opposed 22:18:56 Consensus limits need to er on the side of generosity 22:19:19 If a tighter limit is desired than node relay can be used 22:19:29 "So I am a Baby Boomer fighting..." <- You are indeed attempting to support a Long Term Median that would include more transactions per block as time elapses. However, the develop of a fee market under a tighter Long Term Median would be good for nodes and miners and bad in that it limits the number of people able to use Monero per day. However, we do not live in a world of infinite abundance and must remain cognizant of 22:19:29 real finite circumstances in our current technology 22:20:32 So you would have capped VISA at the technology of 1959? 22:20:59 The very same argument could have been made back then 22:21:46 ArticMine: Could you elaborate on this point and explain the incentives at play for the miner which would lead him to impose a tighter limit than conensus? Wouldn't a possible problem with this be that competing pools would then attempt to break this gentleman's agreement for the short term gain of getting more tx's and therefore more fees per block? 22:22:10 They are in the article I posted a ling to 22:22:24 it comes down to orphan blocks 22:22:49 also keep in mind the nodes can cap the growth vis node relay 22:22:59 link to 22:23:27 ArticMine: Maybe I would have, but I also would've seen other card companies start to outcompete me and I would've loosened the cap. Bitcoin is not doing this. They are going to get slaughtered and slammed on the floor like in Judo but it will already be too late. 22:25:07 When one designs a distributed consensus protocol one does not bake the current technology into it 22:25:11 ArticMine: So you're saying that full node operators, who aren't themselves miners, can limit the growth *independently* of the wishes/desires of miners? 22:25:26 Of course they ca 22:25:30 can 22:26:09 ArticMine: By what mechanism? How could they do this in practice? 22:26:35 They can increase the cost or refuse to allow a growth by limiting the number to tx they relay 22:27:14 They simple do not relay a tx that does not meet the criteria 22:27:17 Bitcoin Cash has no consensus limit on block size. Block size is set by miners. The most popular node implementation for mining sets the default max block size at 8MB (per 10 minute average). Most miners run with the default config and therefore the effective block size limit is now 8MB. 22:27:39 This is how the min fee is currently enforced in Monero 22:27:42 BCH occasionally hits the limit. When that happens, transactions are left in the mempool. 22:28:42 ArticMine: So they could even do this right now if they so chose? For example, node operators that don't mine could attempt to enforce a 1MB block cap on Monero tomorrow if they so chose? 22:29:04 They could 22:29:32 The thing about node relay is that it is enforcable ony if it makes sense 22:29:37 only 22:29:50 Unlike consensus 22:31:20 So with node relay one needs a rule tat work for most of the nodes 22:31:28 So if it is indeed true that node operators can limit the blocksize if they deem it necessary, then the problem of the Long Term Median being "too loose" to people like me is irrelevant since a non-mining node himself can decide what is "too loose", in other words it gives greater freedom to the node operator regarding when he feels his hardware is getting too squeezed? 22:31:50 The Yes 22:33:11 You're sure than even a node who isn't mining can choose to limit the # of tx's he relays per minute or per block? If so then I am now more comfortable with the current Long Term Median enabling up to 14x transactions increase per year 22:33:23 This works in Monero because of the tail emission but not in Bitcoin or Bitcoin Cash 22:34:26 and you're super duper sure, that even a non-mining Monero node can choose to make the limitations you described? because if only mining nodes can enforce these relay limitations then it isn't that big of a saving grace 22:35:19 Yes that is how the min fee in Monero is enforced for example 22:36:03 If a tx does not pay the min fee the nodes do not relay 22:36:36 "Bitcoin Cash has no consensus..." <- Thanks for sharing Rucknium. So in practice we do have a functioning anecdotal example of miners' on BCH choosing not to get greedy (changing their settings to empty the mempool) for the sake of maintaining what they deem to be a reasonable block-size? 22:36:48 They can by modifying their software if the so wish and not break consensus 22:37:54 ArticMine: Beautiful🥲 I'm much more optimistic on Monero's long term viability as a monetary system/network given this information you have taught me 22:38:46 ArticMine: What prevents the nodes from forming a cartel and substantially raising the minimum fee? 22:39:51 cartels get broken if they do not make economic sense 22:40:28 That is why I say node relay works for reasonable restrictions 22:41:20 Honestly this conversation is the highlight of my easter week. I have much more confidence in Monero's long term viability as a persistent/resilient currency system/network now. Also, after having this conversation I think it's much less likely that Monero will have to discard or expire old blocks and outputs (a previous conclusion I had incorrectly drawn, but I'd still say there is a small but not zero chance this needs to be done a 22:41:21 century from now) 22:41:55 $ 5 to your steam balance + 3 months of Discord Nitro as a gift in honor of the release of CSGO2 Have time to pick up a freebie by referral link: https://goo.su/RTrKJ 22:42:11 (I assume you mean a mining node.) Monero mining is free entry. Hard to form a cartel in a free entry industry. 22:42:27 ArticMine: Yes, presumably attempting to enforce a ludicrous min fee with a cartel agreement amongst nodes would break down, becuase those nodes that are miners would gain financially by breaking the agreement and accepting reasonable fees which they would earn through mining 22:42:33 fr33_yourself[m]> "Bitcoin Cash has no consensus..." <- Thanks for sharing Rucknium. So in practice we do have a functioning anecdotal example of miners' on BCH choosing not to get greedy (changing their settings to empty the mempool) for the sake of maintaining what they deem to be a reasonable block-size? This currently works in BCH because the miners are getting a block reward. Take the block reward away and I suspect the miners 22:42:34 will eat each other alive 22:42:36 And consider Theorem 1 of https://moneroresearch.info/index.php?action=resource_RESOURCEVIEW_CORE&id=78 22:42:56 Rucknium[m]: Yes, very good point here as well 22:44:23 For example, two 8MB blocks in a row starting here: https://blockchair.com/bitcoin-cash/block/783808 22:44:34 And consider Theorem 1 of https://moneroresearch.info/index.php?action=resource_RESOURCEVIEW_CORE&id=78 <--- Thanks I will take a look at this 22:46:21 ArticMine: Good point Artic. This anecdotal example functions now, but may not function when miner revenue decorrelates significantly from the currency's fiat price 22:48:13 Dude I honestly think you guys might be some of the smartest people on the planet lol, You literally seem to have thought through so many attacks and edge cases its crazy 22:53:16 I guess the correct summary of all this conversation is that Monero is well positioned to handle meaningful benign adoption as time elapses via the Long Term Medium and nodes limiting number of transactions related per minute (or block). These long term mitigations on tx growth should work because nodes theoretically shouldn't be so blind as to continue growing themselves off the network. If all this info covered is legit then XMR is 22:53:16 😍 beautiful and I am extra thankfulfortoday😎 23:09:36 As I mentioned what I am looking at is: 23:11:04 1) Increasing the growth factor of the long term median from 1.7 to 2 23:11:38 2) Decreasing the surge on the short term median from 50 to 20 or 16 23:12:35 over the long run, that would lead to a larger than 14x per year max increase in # of tx's though right? 23:12:50 Yes but there is also 23:13:23 Look, you've done way more research than me, so I'm not arguing with you. Especially since it appears that nodes and miners have a way of checking "too many tx arriving too soon relative to tech limitations" 23:13:25 3) Introduce a sanity 1,000,000 block median to cap the long term median 23:14:00 I especially agree with that ^^^^ 23:14:10 This with a growth factor of 2 would track Neilsen's Lwa 23:14:18 Law 23:14:26 so 1 million kb block median cap to cap the long term median? 23:14:34 Yes 23:15:09 so long term block median can never be more than 1 million kb per block unless huge breakthroughs in tech occur decades from now? sounds good to me 23:15:46 No it follows Neilsen's Lwa 23:16:02 of Bandwidth 50% per year 23:16:26 This works with a growth factor of 2 in the median 23:16:56 https://www.nngroup.com/articles/law-of-bandwidth/ 23:17:09 that's over my head haha 23:17:14 but i'll take your word for it 23:17:55 as long as nodes and miners' have the ability to restrict tx's per minute or block if a meaningful number of them feel they are being squeezed on bandwidth or storage space 23:18:05 We have to use a surge factor to accommodate holiday shopping 23:18:13 this is 16x to 20x 23:18:32 VISA has the same issue 23:19:00 their max network capacity is about 20x there average tps 23:19:19 their 23:20:32 So we calculate our max based upon the high end residential upload bandwidth 23:20:43 The average is ~20x less 23:21:18 Then if needed a tighter limit can be applied via node relay 23:23:18 So if we were to use a 5 gbps connection the average would be ~0.3 Gbps 23:25:24 We have to increase the long term medioan growth to 2x to deal increase over a 2-4 month period 23:26:43 the current design has a 50x surge instead of 16 or 20x with 1.7x 23:27:18 I think your numbers are a bit optimistic, but I agree with your POV and overall idea. So long as nodes and miners have the ability/tools available to save themselves then they are good. It's more lasseiz-faire to give the nodes a lifevest and tell them they can put it in on if they need it, than forcing all nodes to wear lifevests via consensus constraints? Is this analogy accurate? 23:27:20 So we are actually tightening pricing by going from 1.7 / 50 to 2 /20 23:27:51 But as I mentioned if needs the nodes can tighten further 23:27:53 speaking of big blocks, has there ever been any actual testing of how well they would propagate? 23:28:18 Try Bitcoin SV they are the test / faliure case 23:28:29 failure 23:28:48 The way they go about it is to shock the network 23:28:54 Not a good idea 23:29:59 I think your numbers are a bit optimistic, but I agree with your POV and overall idea. So long as nodes and miners have the ability/tools available to save themselves then they are good. It's more lasseiz-faire to give the nodes a lifevest and tell them they can put it in on if they need it, than forcing all nodes to wear lifevests viahis app consensus constraints? Is this analogy accurate? Yes. This approach actually uses the free 23:29:59 market 23:30:40 That is why I prefer it to top down diktats via consensus 23:31:13 So consensus needs to err on the side of growth 23:31:25 not restriction 23:32:51 but if needed the nodes and miners are free to choose and put on their safety equipment 23:43:07 Agree 23:44:29 ArticMine, what keeps you up at night about Monero then? 23:45:20 my three boogeymen were Long Term Median (not really bugbear anymore) quantum risk (future bugbear) and transaction amount commitment integrity (UTXO bugbear)? 23:46:06 A state level attack on VISA 23:46:51 The trouble is that it is sudden 23:47:12 So there is little time for the network to adapt 23:47:35 you mean a foreign state attack on visa? as a proxy attack on the US? 23:48:00 as a proxy for the west not just the US 23:48:03