00:03:07 not sure if bot 02:45:03 Hello. I would appreciate any advice or help. 02:45:03 Please tell me the services where i can buy a number for registration in telegram. ? I don't really like this service but there are many developers in it, I need to clarify some questions. 02:45:40 SMSPVA.com or JuicySMS.com. Accepts Bitcoin and Monero. 02:46:28 anarkiocrypto: thanks for the info i will try 03:36:05 shall i get monerodotcom cakwallet or normal cakewallet 03:36:33 cuz github has two downloads and im confused :( 03:38:07 Retro-Hax[m]: monerodotcom is a monero only wallet, the other also has other coins 03:38:11 otherwise they are identical 03:42:20 ah alright thanks :3 cuz i found aa reddit post where they said to not use monerodotcom wallet cuz it takes 5 minutes to pay a coffee shop sometimes 04:12:38 is there a service that give me number that i can use for call? 04:12:38 + can be paid via monero? 04:17:10 > <@mlcboss:matrix.org> is there a service that give me number that i can use for call? 04:17:11 > 04:17:11 > + can be paid via monero? 04:17:11 jmp.chat gives us/canada numbers for cypto , but i think they only accept bitcoin 04:17:42 but you can use any monero/btc swap service 04:19:53 I dont see the need or desire to integrate crypto into messaging apps. All you need to do is copy your reciving address and send it to who ever you want to pay you. 04:19:54 kevino[m]: no need i can buy bitcoin 04:21:49 BobSacmanto[m]: my messenging app has built in bank lol 04:21:50 it makes payment easier i think , since it's sync your number & your address 04:21:50 so if i want to send you monero i just type your number and click send 04:24:50 Phone number? My monero wallet is linked to my phone number? Sounds great for privacy 04:26:28 "I dont see the need or desire to..." <- i didn't say about integrating crypto into messaging app. 04:26:28 its just a voip service that we can pay through crypto 04:27:08 BobSacmanto[m]: it doesn't affect privacy 04:27:39 mlcboss: How can it not? The messaging app is scanning your addresses that it could send monero to 04:27:52 "> <@mlcboss:matrix.org> is there..." <- nice the service i been looking for 04:28:57 BobSacmanto[m]: Monero has stealth addresses 04:29:55 mlcboss: you still have to manually add your contacts address right ? 04:30:11 mlcboss: yeah ok, but to recieve monero you need an address. 04:30:16 because monero doesn't have a reverse phone number lookup service 04:30:39 it has an openalias service 04:31:17 you could manually add your contacts monero address in any other app like moneroju 04:31:29 * like moneroju , cakewallet 04:32:21 kevino[m]: it doesn't have to be a phone number can also work with username 04:32:21 is up to the person to enable the monero wallet 04:32:21 if it enable it will displayed their address in their profile 04:33:21 kevino[m]: yes this works too , i personally preferred this adding them manually 04:33:21 but people has different needs , some people just love the idea having payment and messenger in a single app 04:33:24 lol , then its bad for privacy 04:34:01 the service knows everyone's monero wallet address , it might also track how much you send etc 04:34:20 kevino[m]: depends on the messenger built 04:34:50 kevino[m]: is the same thing can done with a wallet , they can put malicious code to scan your balace and transaction 04:34:50 that's why use an open source wallet 04:36:18 Also adopion is required since if I accept xmt but do not use the messanger wallet app, you cannot send monero to me conviently since I do not hace the app. It a two way street, so to send monero to me.or vice versa, would be no different than sending monero by copying and pasting the address in a messanger. Also some wallets like stack wallet have addresses were you can save addresses you use often like for friends you send xmr to often 05:42:43 hello 05:45:35 yeah you probably don't require monero wallet on the go , we are not quite there yet when shopkeepers have a qr for monero infront of their shops 🙂 05:46:40 maybe cakewallet could be useful sometimes if you are in the US. 05:50:03 Hi, I'm using pruning blockchain parameters because I'm only doing it for mining on monero client. Can I use monero-blockchain-import.exe to import the blockchain instead of syncing after using the pruning blockchain parameter? (Translated by Google) 07:09:05 is there a something like amazon / ebay but for monero? 07:09:06 im not talking about dark markets just for buy / selling regular stuff 07:10:07 MoneroMarket.io, t.me/MoneroMarket, reddit.com/r/moneromarket. Bitejo.com was my project but I'm handing it over to a new owner. 07:29:56 > <@mlcboss:matrix.org> is there a something like amazon / ebay but for monero? 07:29:56 > 07:29:56 > im not talking about dark markets just for buy / selling regular stuff 07:29:56 shopinbit.de 07:30:28 s/shopinbit.de/shopinbit.de (kinda expensive)/ 08:10:40 https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/12kvqw6/intercambioapp_new_privacyfirst_no_js_no_kyc/ 08:34:43 "I dont see the need or desire to..." <- it's hip to do so. also there is a clear trend going that way: tg + TON, signal + mobilecoin 08:35:06 it plays into the neo-banking game, where money is something "more social" 08:35:49 I am OK with molly trying to insert a monero wallet into their chat app, as long as it is lightweight and doesn't slow down the chat app. 08:38:06 > <@mlcboss:matrix.org> yes this works too , i personally preferred this adding them manually 08:38:06 > 08:38:06 > but people has different needs , some people just love the idea having payment and messenger in a single app 08:38:06 👍 08:38:45 "the service knows everyone's..." <- which service are you talking about? stop beating on the strawman. 08:49:08 "https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero..." <- fkn clown againnn 08:50:54 talks a big ole bag of shit about how trocador being a proxy is bas 08:51:03 `Unlike others exchange aggregator Intercambio is created by Trusted Monero Community members who have years of experience in providing the best possible privacy to their users.` 08:51:03 l m f a o 08:52:56 We are working only with known and reliable instant exchanges, that when they receive your deposit, will process the trade and transfer funds directly to your chosen address. We do not have access to your coins at any point of the transaction. 08:53:00 lmfao 08:53:12 how fucking pathetic 08:53:48 this is a majesticbank product, and he speajs about himself like hes trusted or his exchange is reliable 08:57:09 Signal/molly is e2ee and i would assume that https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360057625692-In-app-Payments would be similar to monero in molly. 08:58:07 . 08:58:22 bf 08:58:23 ofrnxmr[m]: do you mind keeping the language civil please? 08:58:27 pong 08:58:39 i do 08:58:48 thanks for asking 09:49:50 Who is this majesticbank dude? Being a trusted and experienced Monero Community members we should know, right? 09:53:35 i wonder who the trusted community members the trust majestic are. seemingly all of event and communitywould disagree that majestic is trusted 09:54:26 all of -events* and -community* 10:14:30 "Signal/molly is e2ee and i..." <- is Molly a decentralized version of signal? 10:14:30 i can't get the app on ios nor playstore 10:14:47 Apk or fdriod 10:15:16 ios? 10:15:17 prob no.. 10:15:24 https://github.com/mollyim/mollyim-android 10:15:26 Nah ios 10:15:36 * Nah android only 10:15:54 DanIsnotthemanBr: is there a reason why not being put on playstore or playstore don't allow them 10:16:10 Two versions of molly 10:17:01 nvm is still centralized 10:17:16 so what's the benefit than signal? 10:17:29 E2ee 10:17:52 Not meta data leaks 10:18:22 Ex phone number registered 10:18:41 But you can use voip number 10:18:53 i prefer signal 10:19:14 Molly is a fork of signal debloated 10:19:47 can it uses signak server probably no 10:20:02 Molly has unique features compared to Signal:... (full message at ) 10:20:44 Yes still uses signal server but in zero knowledge 10:21:15 valldrac: can tell you more 10:21:18 DanIsnotthemanBr: ohh i thought is a total different messenger finally no need for aurora to install signal 10:24:48 also Molly is the only xmr wallet in froid :/ 10:25:07 Work in progress 10:26:16 If your on android i’d go molly foss version 10:29:24 Does molly offer google push service ? 10:29:33 current release of molly uses signal servers,yes 10:29:40 or conversations push service ? 10:29:50 no google push 10:30:16 so is molly going to host its own molly servers in future ? 10:30:39 that is the plan 10:30:50 that would be great in theory 10:31:10 but were 2 years(?) into the future already and next steps cost a lot more 10:31:17 but i have heard that signal has made the server code very difficult to host by other parties 10:31:50 they dont want anybody using their servers 10:33:40 * DanIsnotthemanBr uploaded an image: (268KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/BIxexntYClrOPVZacMMTpXjX/ima_b17a386.jpeg > 10:34:20 https://github.com/mollyim/mollyim-android 10:34:21 Two versions of molly 10:35:11 Shows what the difference is on there github page 10:37:30 loli wasnt even aware of the google version 10:37:43 thanks 10:40:35 should i use bromite instead of firefox for android? 10:40:38 "so what's the benefit than..." <- 1. molly is on fdroid 2) molly offers full FOSS apk 10:40:59 Encrypted backup too 10:40:59 firefox is not available on fdroid sadly 10:41:16 + upstream code not fully open 10:41:35 https://www.privacyguides.org/en/tools/ 10:42:21 mlcboss[m]: yes. also check out Mull browser on android 10:42:47 would you guys use Silent.link 10:42:48 benefits : 10:42:48 1. payable with monero 10:42:48 2. no burner phone hustle 10:42:57 k4r4b3y[m]: upstream code not fully open 10:43:08 "Does molly offer google push..." <- there are discussions to implement unified push, but its still early (there are beta versions, which I unfortunately didn't have time to test yet) 10:43:25 mlcboss[m]: really? didn't know that. I use calyxos' version of chromium or tor browser on android anyways 10:44:52 Mull is better,uses part of arkenfox 10:46:22 is chromium more secure on android? 10:46:39 *isn't 10:47:14 DanIsnotthemanBr: so for daily drive use Mull + Tor Browser? 10:47:14 i don't like orbot cause it taking away my vpn slot 10:50:01 https://www.privacyguides.org/en/mobile-browsers/ 10:50:13 orbot is waste to use 10:50:38 you can make cakewallet to connect through tor , even without orbot 10:52:07 kevino[m]: does cake use a tor daemon built-into its wallet app? I prefer using orbot for doing the tor daemon stuff. 10:53:27 They had guide cant remember the link 11:16:07 1sec 11:17:09 https://guides.cakewallet.com/docs/tutorials/mobile-hardening/#using-invizible-pro 11:19:11 "you can make cakewallet to..." <- is molly ok to replace cake wallet? 11:19:24 no 11:19:40 cake wallet is not on fdroid rip 11:19:41 one is a chat app, one is a wallet 11:19:51 nothing is 11:20:30 therewere no blockers for fdroid 11:21:31 mlcboss[m]: Why not just get it off github? 11:21:31 https://github.com/cake-tech/cake_wallet/releases 11:21:43 monerujo, cake, stack, anonero, mysu are all fdroid eligible 11:21:51 just havent been submitted 11:22:09 fdroid is kinda meh for security anyway 11:23:42 being on fdroid is still a + as thats the first place foss users go as they "repo" 11:24:56 but its also not much trouble to host a _build_ server. 11:24:56 though most external repos are just dropping the prebuilt apk in.. so fdroid js preferred to shipping binaries 11:25:28 example.. a dev can upload whatever they want to github releases. doesnt have to have anything to do with whats in the code 11:25:59 Pynk[m]: it is convenient to pull updates from, tho 11:26:22 obtanium is an app someone showed me recentky 11:26:41 k4r4b3y[m]: Use an rss reader or obtainium 11:26:44 allows you to add various sources (github etc) and download direct from them (with updates) 11:27:18 k4r4b3y[m]: You could consider it less secure 11:27:23 you cwn evenadd fdroid sources 11:27:53 fdroid is more secure imho than any non-build server releases 11:28:07 anything on google play=/= the code on github 11:28:28 ofrnxmr[m]: Get the apk off github or the apps own site 11:28:30 and a LOT of apps are on github with releases where there is no source code 11:28:44 fdroid cannot release something if the code isnt availabke 11:31:26 so i do appreciate fdroid. 11:31:26 also that "pro" apps with licensing are "free" on fdroid. allowing me to use apps like inzivible pro and to donate monero as i please. 11:31:26 fdroid, at the very least, keeps devs "honest" 11:32:00 I just rly dont like that fdroid signs all the apps with its own signing keys (unique per app). 11:32:44 example session messenger 11:32:52 sessions app is incompatible 11:33:13 and when looking into it,they were using libs that didnt have source available 11:33:29 so, withiut fdroid nobody would havr noticed 11:33:51 and session fdroid is actually free software, unlike the lie that session sells 11:34:55 its not fdroid org main that is key, but the fact that it is a build server. 11:35:31 Pynk[m]: It means you have to trust and the dev of the app and fdroid 11:35:39 similar to github actions (cake wallet uses this for test builds - but every apk has a different sig) 11:36:03 ofrnxmr[m]: I guess it's good that they shine a light on it. I would just never use fdroid 😆 11:36:30 Pynk[m]: without a build server you have to trust or personally verify,everytime 11:36:31 with a buold server, you know code was pulled from somewhere 11:37:01 if you had to use session messenger, which apk are you using? 11:37:17 sessions fdroid repo 11:37:17 github 11:37:17 getsession.org 11:37:17 or fdroid 11:37:22 ofrnxmr[m]: I'm not using it right now. But I certainly wouldn't grab the unofficial version listed on fdroid 11:37:51 so youd use the version that is essentially proprietary? 11:38:38 the unofficial version is literally unofficial- its not even submitted by session 11:38:54 ofrnxmr[m]: Thats why i wouldn't wanna use it 11:39:18 so again, youd use session with spyware? 11:39:20 ofrnxmr[m]: I guess? I didn't read what libs they were using. 11:39:47 when session didnt want to host a build server or submit to fdroid, acommunity member did it 11:40:30 ofrnxmr[m]: Trust and the app dev and the community member that made changes and fdroid 11:40:46 I'd just dodge the messenger 😆 11:41:23 right ^ 11:41:33 i dont use it either 11:41:58 fdroid exposed session 11:42:59 i still prefer reproducibe builds to whatever binary the dev releases 11:43:29 ive been burned a few times with"whoops, uploaded the wrong file" and i end up installing some debug version 11:44:16 do i "trust" fdroid? 11:44:16 more than github and play store 11:45:11 Can i use xmr node for lokinet? 11:45:19 nope 11:45:25 they use a monero fork called oxen 11:45:26 POS 11:45:54 one of sessions main devs KeeJeff actually wrote the ipv6 integration for mknero 11:46:41 s/main/well known 11:46:57 Was jokimg. Hate when they make you stake to “secure” the network 11:47:09 > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> do i "trust" fdroid? 11:47:09 > more than github and play store 11:47:09 I trust github releases signed by the dev more than the apps fdroid signs themselves and provides 11:47:40 i dont 11:47:52 github releases are very very often not matching the code 11:48:14 which is why you see issues abiut the app not being reproducibke 11:48:41 plowsof: forgot to copy that dns-blacklist link :/ 11:49:17 https://walletscrutiny.com/ 11:50:40 Yeah see that before 11:51:54 and thats hardly an example 11:52:24 id argue the majority of android apks on github are the google play releases- not the open source ones 11:57:09 were pretty far from monero / molly 11:57:10 should probably take it to #monero-offtopic:monero.social if it doesnt pertain to xmr 12:02:31 "plowsof: forgot to copy that dns..." <- need it? 12:03:55 > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> were pretty far from monero / molly 12:03:55 > 12:03:55 > should probably take it to #monero-offtopic:monero.social if it doesnt pertain to xmr 12:03:55 yes probably 12:03:59 https://gui.xmr.pm/files/block.txt 12:41:01 Question re transaction fees. bitinfocharts.com/monero suggests the average transaction fee is currently 0.00032 XMR ($0.052). However, from personal experience they're a lot less. 12:41:35 Looking at feather wallet right now, for example, it's saying I'd pay 0.000030660000 for a transaction. Which is about 1/2 of a cent. Is Bitinfo charts correct, and if so, who's paying these larger fees and why? 12:50:01 the fee is correlated to the size of the tx, Rucknium would answer this correctly but but im guessing a "normal"* transaction is 1 in 2 out (1 recipient, the 2nd is yourself for the change). small size/low fee. but then you have exchanges who batch payments to speed withdrawals up that will have many outputs (larger fee). also, that "normal"* 1 in 2 out could become a 146 in 2 out - if you have alot of tiny p2pool outputs that you wallet 12:50:01 selected to make that payment. 12:56:10 the numbers check out 12:56:21 "Looking at feather wallet..." <- A few of the latest entries to mempool:... (full message at ) 12:58:42 20k tx / day 12:58:42 25 tx per block 12:58:42 avg 0.609 block reward 12:59:16 https://xmrchain.net/tx/6ef72f7a753464093fce664693a2b03e5c010522d2f9944916d1dffc482c7086 12:59:28 tx like this bump it up 13:00:05 thanks plowsof, ofrnxmr and TrasherDK! 13:00:05 had considered exchanges, but didn't imagine they're doing *that* many transactions. However, adding in p2pool and it starts to make more sense 13:00:25 i forgot about the multiplayer , feather has disabled the option iirc 13:00:32 multiplier* 13:00:47 multiplier? 13:01:21 https://docs.featherwallet.org/guides/transaction-fee 13:01:55 the monero gui can let you 200x the fee if you feel like tipping your miner 13:03:53 ah, I see, so the transaction TrasherDK linked to paid a $5 fee voluntarily - perhaps via the GUI 13:04:10 i mean, ofrnxmr linked to 13:05:02 they do it often 13:05:18 the same fee, at least once a day 13:05:28 sometimes people pay [citation required] 3+xmr for a fee on accident cus of a naughty node [pre and post warning] 13:06:39 john_r365: A lot of txs overpay on the fee. Mean is not the same as median, nor the minimum fee. 13:07:04 Use median. If your source doesn't have it, then get another source 13:07:20 Is there a source for median fees? 13:08:18 At least fees are available from your local monerod 13:08:46 https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/monero-median_transaction_fee.html#3m&search=xmr would be greaaat if it worked though 13:09:42 I like bitinfocharts. But yeah they don't have median for some reason. Median is slightly harder to calculate 🤷 13:10:40 They have median fee for other coins. Not XMR. 13:11:09 a higher example of an overpaying tx https://xmrchain.net/tx/ec24ac15d04ae4454b42fc4b8e2aee0d36af3be20eed42a1ee4a1c8f1a13bcb8 13:11:24 0.574920000000 XMR total 13:11:36 Exactly. Median is resistant to outliers. Mean is not. 13:16:50 avg fee is a good number to know for miner revenue 13:21:45 ``` 13:21:45 It’s best to use the mean to describe the center of a dataset when the distribution is mostly symmetrical and there are no outliers. 13:21:45 ``` 13:21:45 https://www.statology.org/when-to-use-mean-vs-median/ 13:22:56 good explanation of why median is better when looking at things like tx fee 13:56:30 How do i keep monero-gui wallet on a windows computer more secure? 13:56:30 i consider windows Operating system to be more vulnerable OS than others 13:57:14 *except from using hardware wallets 14:24:16 monero is fucked with mordinals 14:24:20 unless we can stop them 14:25:19 do your part and upgrade to latest monerod 14:26:49 i assume the private keys are encrypted when the application is not running 14:27:26 kevino[m]: yes 14:27:34 assuming you have set a password on your wallet file 14:29:33 use an adblocker, don't download pirated software from shady websites, don't open email attachments or links, avoid unnecessary browser extensions 14:31:12 kevino did you verify the download hash 14:33:53 yes ! 14:39:48 is windows actually more susceptible to malware & proven? you could potentially use a VM or dual-boot into a second system you keep clean 14:40:58 susman1 mordinals are hot trash 14:44:46 captain_columbia: yes. windows _is_ spyware and ships plenty of it 14:48:26 ofrnmxr: windows is spyware sure. but the likelihood of corporate telemetry affecting your use of monero-gui specifically? Im mostly concerned about 3rd party malware keylogging your private keys, or something 14:48:36 how do I download a monero 14:57:29 kevino: just use Linux XD 14:58:06 where to buy an linux? 14:58:36 to buy linux go to www dot microsoft dot com slash buylinux 14:58:50 :( 15:00:17 I just created a Monero wallet but I don't understand how to buy XMR. 15:00:22 zilog: here you go, little guy www dot getfedora dot org 15:00:52 PaulJanssen[m]: where did you buy your wallet? 15:00:56 thank you captain_columbia 15:01:26 zilog: I created it from GetMonero.org 15:01:42 uhmmm 15:09:11 "ofrnmxr: windows is spyware sure..." <- windows will delete miners and iirc used to or sometimes still deleted monerod 15:10:07 i whitlisted monero-gui directory 15:10:35 are we still using terms like white/black list in 2023? 15:10:43 i just expect my os not to touch my stuff without permion 15:10:59 yeah i am also mostly concerned about 3rd party malware and key loggers 15:11:09 yeah so use linux 15:11:34 "Paul Janssen: where did you..." <- what type of question is this 🙄 15:11:45 and worry a lot less or not at all about bring infected by random websites 15:12:23 zilog: are we still constantly changing language so retards don't get offended 15:13:07 "I just created a Monero wallet..." <- there are a few marketplaces from where you can buy xmr. 15:13:07 non-kyc p2p method is by using localmonero.co 15:13:42 but you may see a lot of markup on current market price on localmonero 15:13:52 kevino[m]: I was asking to know 15:14:03 so other option is to use kyc exchanges like kraken ,kucoin etc. 15:14:18 ocean[m]: thats alot to unpack but saying retard is not nice 15:14:39 ut dallas D: 15:14:42 ofrnxmr[m]: mhhh , maybe in a virtual machine 15:16:59 zilog: go to getmonero.org/downloads/ 15:17:23 no 15:27:24 thanks, I'll use kraken 15:44:00 just buy xmr from these exchanges and withdraw them to your wallet installed on desktop. 17:43:14 greetings, if I set up a node on a 4 GiB RAM & 80 GiB SSD vps , how much monero would I approximately be able to solo mine? 17:52:50 you wont know until you start mining on it and see what hash rates you get. if it was profitable i'd be in the Bahamas 18:07:56 thank you for the insight 18:09:36 80gb is pushing it 18:09:50 pruned node is 60, + os 18:09:59 "you wont know until you start..." <- profitable if monero suddenly the size of bitcoin 18:09:59 kinda insane though , if monero mcap were 100x larger it still only about 50% of Bitcoin mcap 18:10:17 a better wat to out it 18:10:47 if 1% of bitcoin sold into monero, moneros price woukld are you saying I should have less SSD space? 18:11:47 more 18:11:56 128+ imo 18:12:01 ofrnxmr[m]: it still will be larger than monero current mcap 😂 18:12:09 ok 18:12:12 yep 18:12:26 mlcboss: 18:20:44 and you want to mine on a vps? Guest8713: probably shouldnt 18:21:16 Why not & how else would I be able to run a node? 18:29:55 you can run a node on the vps, but you can also run a node at home 18:30:39 i woudnt recommend mining on the vps though. waste of money and youre likely to get banned 18:34:49 Oh ok 18:34:57 thanks 19:31:54 we must raid the mordinal socials 19:40:53 susman1: why? 19:42:06 k4r4b3y[m]: awful idea that hurts people with common sense 19:43:06 people in this room have reported that the mordinal production has pretty much dwindled to a halt. it doesn't seem like a problem anymore? 19:45:26 k4r4b3y[m]: why would it stop? 19:46:10 they seemed to be hell bent on having them 19:46:12 susman1[m]: apparently the devs have increased the cost or whatever 19:46:23 susman1[m]: they are just burning money 19:46:39 no one is going to buy low quality ai generated images that are borderline spam 19:46:53 selsta: 👍 19:47:30 "Buy" lol 19:47:35 I can download them for free 19:47:38 pirate_flag.jpg 19:47:46 yea this whole thing is nonsense 19:47:56 but the possibility to bloat the network is out there 19:48:00 amiright 19:48:33 k4r4b3y[m]: fork it and lower the fees 19:48:42 Bloating is not free too, they burned around 5 XMR for all these mordinals 19:48:46 or whatever 20:01:29 "Bloating is not free too, they..." <- Quite cheap imo. 20:03:34 Hello everyone. 20:13:53 the hell 20:19:01 greetings 20:28:52 these ntfs gotta be stopped 20:33:18 yeah lets get more people moving toward ext4 20:33:47 what are their socials 20:34:09 im not sure if bill gates is involved with ntfs still but its a good start (maybe he can change it) 20:34:28 plowsof11: Lol 20:44:44 "yeah lets get more people moving..." <- tf does that have to do with it 20:46:09 sorry, are we talking about nsfs now? or ntfs? either way this feels off topic 20:46:48