01:18:39 <DivyanshJoshi[m]> <nioc> "when sending txs you don't..." <- Okay, thanks nioc 
02:33:08 <temp_monero_womb> hi monero community: is there any downside to using a new wallet's primary account for mining, and then that same wallet non-primary accounts for storing/sending/receiving?  I saw that p2pool recommends using a separate wallet for mining because the primary address is visible for mining payout . . . but if only using primary address for mining and never anything else, why not keep it all in one place in same wallet for convenience?
02:33:08 <temp_monero_womb> does primary account address be used for anything else other than mining?  hope this is right place to ask thank you
02:42:24 <nioc> just to clarify terminology, for mining you use the primary address and then you have subaddresses connected to that address.  This constitutes an account.
02:43:45 <nioc> you can have multiple accounts in a wallet which behave as separate wallets, each with a primary address and their associated subaddresses   
02:44:42 <nioc> this is my understanding but I have never used multiple accounts within one wallet
02:46:26 <temp_monero_womb> yes this clarification sounds correct to me.  as I understand it, primary address (which is the top-level address of primary account) is only option for mining solo or p2pool.
02:46:47 <nioc> whether you are using the term non-primary accounts for subaddresses or a different account I do not have an answer to you  :)
02:47:03 <nioc> well a different account is ok 
02:47:26 <temp_monero_womb> oooohh sorry :)
02:47:30 <temp_monero_womb> I do mean different accounts
02:47:54 <temp_monero_womb> or subaddresses withing different accounts, but the only thing that primary account would be used for is mining
02:55:01 <temp_monero_womb> my main concern is to maintain privacy with not having any addresses I use for transactions be visible through mining, but would love convenience of not having to juggle multiple wallets at this time (hence interest in mining on primary account, and then separate accounts in same wallet for transactions that can't be tied to mining)
02:55:33 <temp_monero_womb> I think it would be OK, but in case is obvious bad problem I wanted to verify with others in community :)
02:56:05 <temp_monero_womb> I appreciate you responding with me nioc, thank you
02:58:09 <nioc> temp_monero_womb: np, not many people around at this time
02:58:35 <nioc> seems like it should be ok but yeah would be nice if someone confirms
03:15:23 <TrasherDK[m]> <toralien[m]> "because my fs doesn't look..." <- It's the layout on a remote server, running `mainnet`, `testnet` and `stagenet` daemons, including `monero-lws-daemon` and some `monero-wallet-rpc`.
10:31:00 <ajs_[m]> Prague Travel Guide For Monerokon3 - https://monerokon.medium.com/prague-travel-guide-for-monerokon3-2fbbd5734a3a
10:57:25 <M1234random4321[> Didnt add screenshot yesterday for cakepay's partner shotgun KYC so here:
10:57:25 <M1234random4321[> https://i.ibb.co/FY4399F/Cake-Pay-KYC.png
10:57:25 <M1234random4321[> Just a note to myself to not use anything cake related coming forward and just keep using bitrefill and allark instead
12:01:31 <Guest77> hello
12:02:10 <Guest77> do anyone knows oneline  converter as rate.sx(off now)
12:02:31 <Guest77> fiat > monero and the opposite
12:05:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> just price info?
12:05:09 <Guest77> yes
12:05:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> coingecko, kraken and cake wallet have apis
12:05:57 <Guest77>  echo "0.44" | xargs -I {} echo "{} * $(curl --no-progress-meter "api.coingecko.com/api/v3/simple/price?ids=monero&vs_currencies=usd" | jq '.monero.eur')" | bc
12:06:02 <Guest77> dont work
12:06:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> why not
12:07:27 <Guest77> (standard_in) 2: syntax error
12:15:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> so you need to use a command that works
12:15:55 <Guest77> yes
12:23:43 <ceetee[m]> <temp_monero_womb> "hi monero community: is there..." <- Depending on your jurisdiction it may be beneficial to have different seeds for different purposes. Because if you are forced to reveal view keys for eg. mining operations, you can still keep the other transactions private.
12:28:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> look at the heuristics on p2pool.observer
12:29:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> it shows a bit of what can be correllated (recent consolidation/sweeps, spends with non coinbase, likelihood)
12:48:46 <plowsof11> the last time i asked chatgpt for someone it gave me this curl -s "https://min-api.cryptocompare.com/data/pricemulti?fsyms=UAH,XMR&tsyms=USD&api_key=asddsacdc" | jq -r '.UAH.USD / .XMR.USD'
12:50:57 <Guest77> curl -s "https://min-api.cryptocompare.com/data/pricemulti?fsyms=UAH,XMR&tsyms=USD&api_key=asddsacdc" | jq -r '.UAH.EUR / .XMR.EUR'
12:50:58 <Guest77> jq: error (at <stdin>:0): null (null) and null (null) cannot be divided
12:57:02 <plowsof11> If you feel uncomfortable with the request or if you are not familiar with the commands being asked of you, it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that the person try talking to ChatGPT themselves.
12:57:56 <plowsof11> it works here, you must have... some networking issue / cant access that url
12:59:37 <Guest77> i run from other pc and output is the same
13:01:48 <plowsof11> try it on my wifi 
13:02:14 <Guest77> pc in on other network
13:16:29 <temp_monero_womb> ceetee🇧🇪: oooohh that is good point would give plausible deniability.  I will look if this part of my threat model.  does view key expose only single account, or does view key expose all accounts inside a wallet made with seed?  thank you !
13:16:41 <TrasherDK[m]> https://techanjs.fumlersoft.dk/indicator/multi/?res=minute&agg=10&limit=100&currency=EUR&crypto=XMR,DERO,ARRR,BTC,DOGE,LTC
13:17:02 <Guest77> do anyone knows any open source version of chatgpt because i dont want to give my info to google
13:17:44 <temp_monero_womb> ofrnxmr: thank you for link, I look now at what someone can know about p2pool miners
13:24:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> About any pool miners, realky
13:24:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> Just that p2pool is shows you what info pools can collect on users
13:25:42 <temp_monero_womb> this makes sense thank you !
13:27:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> <Guest77> "do anyone knows any open..." <- I use an old microsoft account with bing's version 
13:29:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> There are some open source alternatives. but a lot of front ends as well which still require you to have gpt api keys.
13:29:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> i havent tested the fully open alternatives
13:38:33 <ceetee[m]> <temp_monero_womb> "ceetee🇧🇪: oooohh that is good..." <- each seed has one view key and one spend key. Accounts are like buckets to manage the individual received outputs to prevent accidental mixing of them when spending
13:39:35 <temp_monero_womb> thank you this is helpful to know 🙏
13:59:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> The Janus attack is the #1 reason you want to use separate seeds
14:01:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you arent a target, subaccounts are often sufficient.
14:01:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> avoid mixing funds between (subaddresses, subaccounts, or separate seeds) depenind on your threat level
14:02:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> If withdrawing to different sub accounts, you only want to spend from one account at a time. Iirc its technicnally possible to spend an entire wallet balance, but by default in most front end wallets is when spening from an subaccount that only the the accounts funds are used
14:05:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> Separate seeds/accounts etc should be treated as separate identities
15:45:23 <xmrfn[m]> <Guest77> "do anyone knows any open..." <- This belongs in OT but FYI you can selfhost open source LLMs, just not specifically the brand-name closed-source "ChatGPT"
15:45:23 <xmrfn[m]> Here is a nice list, new ones are being released almost daily
15:45:23 <xmrfn[m]> https://medium.com/geekculture/list-of-open-sourced-fine-tuned-large-language-models-llm-8d95a2e0dc76
15:53:46 <temp_monero_womb> ofrnxmr: thank you for explain so much too, I like separate accounts/seeds as separate identities.  I will read on Janus attack to see if matters in threat model your words are big help 🙏
16:10:12 <temp_monero_womb> I have 1 more question I think of - is any major risk of mining p2pool on personal computer?  I see many use dedicated mining rig but I do not want to buy second computer.  I assume is different for threat model, but curious what risk be when not opening ports
16:31:07 <xmrfn[m]> IMO mining is minimal risk, much lower than running a node. No peers need to connect to your miner; your miner just occasionally needs to download a new block.
16:34:32 <temp_monero_womb> this I think too, thank you for opinion.  to clarify, I run local pruned node to keep blockchain local, but not open ports.  with this setup, no peers should be connect?  I am trying hard to make sure I use right words as monero documents can be confusing to new people :)
16:34:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> P2pool does do p2p connections 
16:34:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> And increases the amount of info going out over the network 
16:35:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monerod sync + p2pool sync 
16:35:32 <xfedex[m]> temp_monero_wombat_5274: you should take a look at CSMiner as a reference
16:35:42 <xfedex[m]> https://github.com/cryptonote-social/csminer
16:35:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> temp_monero_womb: You make outgoing connections with your clear ip
16:36:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> You can run the node behind tor if you want to hide your ip
16:36:23 <xfedex[m]> it's simpler to understand than xmrig, in my opinion, since it only supports randomx and is made in a simpler language (unless you are a C++ dev)
16:37:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> What is your goal?
16:38:12 <temp_monero_womb> goal is to to mine very small here and there to acquire some monero in account - not trying large profit operation
16:38:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> Convenience <<<<< exchange for >>>>> privacy
16:38:29 <temp_monero_womb> I connect GUI wallet over vpn or tor, no open ports
16:39:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> That doesnt change the node config afaik
16:39:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats only for the wallet
16:39:39 <temp_monero_womb> yes, this convenience is what I am try to balance with my threat model :)
16:40:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> max privacy = node behind tor, solo mining 
16:40:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> Max convenience = no node at all, using a clearnet centrslized pool
16:40:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> Quite a good spectrum of options inbetween
16:41:04 <temp_monero_womb> thank you for telling extremes of that balance, I appreciate
16:42:20 <temp_monero_womb> I do not have big hash power, so I think to get little monero here and there I choose pool.  I like decentralized pool because better for network.
16:42:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> I cannot confirm whether or not p2pool works behind torsocks 
16:43:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> Some pools have onion addresses, which can be highky convenient but also have good privacy 
16:43:12 <temp_monero_womb> I have not problem with local node and prefer local node for trust, but is on my personal machine so I prefer not to seed with node so no open ports
16:43:45 <temp_monero_womb> and yes okay I will research maybe do vpn instead for p2pool if no onion
16:43:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> temp_monero_womb: Your node shares with peers. You create the tunnel (outgoing) but the tunnel is bidirectional
16:44:26 <temp_monero_womb> <xfedex[m]> "temp_monero_wombat_5274: you..." <- I not ignore you, thank you for recommendation :)  I think I look for p2pool miner though and it already in GUI wallet
16:44:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> So you do in fact seed to peers, but peers cant initiate the connection
16:44:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> P2pool runs a sidechain
16:44:58 <temp_monero_womb> ooooohh okay I think I need more research then :)
16:45:07 <temp_monero_womb> I am know that p2pool runs separate blockchain
16:45:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ok. Im just saying that youd need to tor that too, if possible
16:45:58 <temp_monero_womb> yes thank you
16:46:35 <temp_monero_womb> I also mention vpn as maybe, but you keep say tor only.  is vpn bad idea your opinion?
16:46:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> Tor over vpn is good, but vpns arent really private
16:47:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> Theyre more for subverting georestrictions or "being in another location"
16:48:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ivpn for example, uses forked networking for some of their backend
16:48:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> Forked is a monero sponsor
16:48:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> Forked also has a customer who had 750+ sybil monero peers
16:49:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> Using ivpn for monero privacy, may lead directly back to sharing your ip with sybil nodes 
16:50:03 <chesterfield[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Wow that entity must really like Monero
16:50:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> Theyre cheap
16:50:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> Super cheap
16:50:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> I think 1500/year for 255.. i could just check instead of guessing, i guess
16:51:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> These arent just monero sybils eithrr 
16:51:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its known as LurkingLion and its an attack on btc and xmr
16:52:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> (good thing we have more full nodes :D) lol
16:53:05 <temp_monero_womb> <ofrnxmr[m]> "Tor over vpn is good, but vpns..." <- yes okay I use other vpn (not ivpn) to shifting trust from isp to vpn, but I still has to trust vpn.  tor is more private.  but for node and p2pool, concern would be exposing ip, and both would accomplish hiding ip from connections to node or p2pool I think, yes?
16:53:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ivpn uses a few different backends
16:53:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> Most others do as well
16:54:01 <temp_monero_womb> <ofrnxmr[m]> "So you do in fact seed to peers,..." <- was this note about seed to peers about p2pool monero local node or both?
16:54:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> Good chance no matter who you choose, youre just paying for the same pig with different lipstick
16:54:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> temp_monero_womb: Both
16:54:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Vpn over tor works, and just tor works as well
16:55:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> But just vpn isnt really private, its, as you said, shifting trust from isp to vpn provider
16:55:15 <temp_monero_womb> I hear you thank you for all help and ideas
16:55:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Who might be using the same isp as the the exit
16:56:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> Vpn for punching through blocks. Anonymity networks for privacy
16:56:11 <temp_monero_womb> yes, is chaos game to play!
16:56:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> Combine tthe two to access anonymity networks where blocked 
18:09:31 <genesis[m]> yo
18:10:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> yoyo
18:11:01 <genesis[m]> how ut go??
18:11:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> sideways, usually to the right, stablecoinin
18:12:12 <genesis[m]> based
18:14:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> and you?
18:14:56 <genesis[m]> doing good
18:15:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> good to hear 💪
18:37:59 <xmrfn[m]> The monero.fail onion node list is empty! Looks like a bug
18:37:59 <xmrfn[m]> (My own .onion node is still up, and used to be indexed there https://libertytmtitynvmnto2k42liys5fenb3wabaozmmmksyrc7jvgmjiqd.onion:18089/get_info )
18:37:59 <xmrfn[m]> Who runs monero.fail ?
18:38:26 <xmrfn[m]> https://monero.fail/?chain=monero&network=mainnet&onion=on --> empty list
18:47:49 <politicalweasel[> monero.fail has been really slow recently
18:49:03 <xmrfn[m]> slow isn't a problem. But I often make a polemical point about XMR's resilency by noting the ~100 Monero .onion nodes and linking to the above
18:49:43 <politicalweasel[> yeah I know, just annoying for me
19:07:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> that would be lza_menace @lza_menace:libera.chat: 
19:08:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> very slow indeed, perhaps being ddosed
19:13:10 <lza_menace> I’ve noticed it as well. Can’t replicate it. It is likely due to the intensive node scanning I implemented. Seemed to start after that
19:15:29 <lza_menace> Seems like I broke something tbh 
19:15:41 <lza_menace> I’ll fix it tonight 
21:52:11 <anonimauzanto[m]> I have a question related to the hash_to_point function in Monero. I do not want to bother the devs because the question is just to satisfy my own curiosity. I am not a mathematician and am just learning as much as I can. I have replicated the hash_to_point function in Python and can calculate a correct key image by stealth_address_private_key * 8 * hash_to_point(stealth_address_public_key). But to calculate 8 (
21:52:11 <anonimauzanto[m]> hash_to_point(stealth_address_public_key) I have to add it to itself 8 times because the Python function nacl.bindin.crypto_scalarmult_ed25519_noclamp throws an error when I try to multiply by 8 (int(8).to_bytes(32, byteorder="little")). And nacl.bindings.crypto_core_ed25519_is_valid_point says the original hash_to_point value (before adding it to itself 8 times) is not a valid EC point. I do not understand enough to figure out why on
21:52:11 <anonimauzanto[m]> my own and was hoping someone could help explain why that behavior occurs?
22:06:41 <anonimauzanto[m]> I have a very vague intuition that the hash_to_point() function is generating a point that is not in the prime order subgroup, and adding to itself 8 times produces a point in the prime order sub group. But that is very very vague intuition, not enough to truly understand.
22:14:41 <alandamjanic[m]> for 2 yrs i have gui wallet on my laptop, syncing with ocal node but now it is syncing forever. is it ok to use remote nodes, i would like to be able to transact and not to wait so long. what most of you do when you use monero for payments? local or remote.please advise, im not a computer person. tnx
22:34:39 <bcrumb> alandamjanic: ssd or spinning disk? i use local
22:34:49 <bcrumb> I use local, it's weird that it's so slow with syncing
22:35:02 <bcrumb> I don't use the GUI, does it do syncing by itself?
22:35:02 <ceetee[m]> remote is okey for most payments
22:35:07 <bcrumb> and yeah it's ok for payments
22:35:15 <bcrumb> but i kind of prefer monerod + cli wallet
22:36:23 <bcrumb> alandamjanic: check that your network is properly set up, that you are not using a spinning disk drive, that your internet speed is good
22:40:18 <TrasherDK[m]> Unless using a 2400 baud modem, internet speed is never the bottleneck.... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/19952cf7ed8de371fc54b9574e295cc1908c1326>)
23:41:13 <anonimauzanto[m]> After many hours of searching it appears that hash_to_point() implements Elligator2 or something similar. It appears to be available in libsodium but not in the Python nacl.bindings wrapper. I believe the function crypto_core_ed25519_from_uniform might provide the same functionality as hash_to_point(). https://doc.libsodium.org/advanced/point-arithmetic#elligator-2-map