00:48:33 <chowbungaman[m]> Teaching the Mexico City vendors that will be at MoneroTopia this weekend about Monero and onboarding them in preparation:
00:48:33 <chowbungaman[m]> https://www.youtube.com/live/BkZ8d4nH7zc?feature=share
00:52:00 <anonimauzanto[m]> If anyone here is interested in cofactors and the way they impact elliptics curves like ed25519 this article walks through some of the ideas and a mostly approachable explanation of the ideas: https://loup-vaillant.fr/tutorials/cofactor
00:52:24 <anonimauzanto[m]> I found the article in a google search.
16:24:20 <cornfeedhobo> is there any reason to use accounts over new files, or vice versa?
16:58:11 <jeffro256[m]> If you use accounts you don't have to make new files lol
16:59:20 <jeffro256[m]> But besides that there's really not too much of a different, different accounts keep the funds "separate" from a UX  perspective 
16:59:36 <jeffro256[m]> Refreshing is easier if you use accounts 
17:00:20 <jeffro256[m]> If you use different wallets with different seeds, then learning the seed for one won't compromise the other 
17:06:21 <cornfeedhobo> in the wallet, are accounts derivation paths or something?
17:11:14 <jeffro256[m]> Traditionally yes, account spend keys are derived from the seed and an index number, and account view keys are derived from account spend keys. Subaddress spend keys are derived from account spend keys and an index number, and subaddress view keys are derived from subaddress spend keys 
17:20:02 <cornfeedhobo> other than the threat of external parties matching addresses, is there any reason to make different addresses for moving coins, since stealth addresses are used on chain?
18:02:29 <cryptogrampy[m]> Created an issue to remove any wallets that don't fully support self-hosted light wallet server on the getmonero site: https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/issues/2162  in case anyone wants to give feedback 😊
18:38:08 <lza_menace> hell yeah gramps
18:42:18 <lza_menace> +100
18:51:21 <morris_t[m]> yes works nice on pixel 6 pro
19:26:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> <cornfeedhobo> "other than the threat of..." <- Depositing to the same account and spending multiple inputs in the same tx lowers the likelyhood that they were randomly picked as decoys. 
19:26:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> say you recieve 0.1xmr from kraken 7 times and localmonero 3 times, then spend 1 xmr.
19:26:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> youll spend a transaction of 10in/2out.
19:26:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> looking at the tx on chain, kraken can see with high likelyhood that 7 of the inputs they sent to the same address were spent together, along with 3 other, unknown inputs. 
19:29:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://p2pool.observer/transaction-lookup?txid=109c3afe3c9d72460c55fea5c758e17e95e95d2957b7bd940135e9205575cbd7
19:29:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> Example
19:31:06 <kico> always churn after withdrawing from exchanges
19:32:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> Even that will mix your 1 hop away to a known output
19:33:01 <kico> hmm
19:33:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats why p2pool says to only use that wallet/address for p2pool. Multiple churns over time help, but the more data you add the more it stands out
19:34:37 <kico> oh you mean if you have only p2pool outputs and centralized exchange ones
19:35:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you are constsntly churning them into previously churned inputs from those sources 
19:35:39 <kico> I see your point
19:40:10 <kico> I can live well with CEX bad ... but pee 2 pool bad is sad ..
19:41:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> all pools 
19:41:57 <kico> yeah but we gotta mine somehow
19:42:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Solo works for me (endor's gonna 💢)
19:42:35 <RavFX[m]> People just to impatient. Just solo mine and you are going to get a payout one day ;)
19:42:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> I have many reasons why solo is better
19:42:48 <kico> I've done a lot of solo mining
19:42:50 <RavFX[m]> There is nothing more enraging than seeing that you found a block while mining in a pool 😂
19:43:09 <cornfeedhobo> ofrnxmr[m]: when you say "same account" i assume this also applies to subaddresess then?
19:43:11 <kico> RavFX[m], I don't feel that way
19:43:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> at what difficulty :)
19:43:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> cornfeedhobo: Yeah
19:43:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Subaccounts separate funds though
19:44:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> Can be treated as different identities 
19:44:46 <kico> you guys think the network would be as big if there were only solo miners?
19:44:57 <kico> that would deff be the best scenario 
19:45:03 <kico> just seems very improbable
19:45:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> yes
19:45:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Bigger imo
19:46:06 <kico> fair enough I think it would shrink a lot 
19:46:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> Pool mining is a ripoff and verrrryyyy often a scam
19:46:22 <kico> yeah it takes some trust 
19:46:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Example. Why do my block rewards go from 2.495>2.595>2.495>2.595? 
19:46:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Skimming
19:47:13 <kico> never really liked "the model" but then it seems hard to find a better one that does not compromise some privacy
19:47:19 <kico> ofrnxmr[m], not always
19:47:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or why do pools delay solo miners templates?
19:47:24 <kico> network diff changes
19:47:34 <kico> so does your "profitability"
19:47:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Block reward for solo mining??
19:47:50 <kico> ofrnxmr[m], that was a bug and has been fixed afaik
19:48:08 <kico> ofrnxmr[m], yeah blockreward fixed but not fees
19:48:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> kico: Which?
19:48:15 <DanIsnotthemanBr> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/136tfbj/check_out_the_monerolwsadmin_tool_for_managing/
19:48:25 <kico> about the block templates
19:48:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> nono diff issue
19:49:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> Youre talking about updating block templates from the daemon so tx are being mines efficiently
19:49:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> Im talking about the pool delaying sending that to solo miners 
19:49:36 <kico> sending what?
19:49:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ive evn had blocks stolen 
19:49:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> kico: The job
19:49:48 <kico> pool has no solo miners?
19:49:56 <kico> I'm confused
19:49:58 <kico> sorry
19:50:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Stolen as in, i hit the block, pool got paid, i did not
19:50:22 <kico> orphan blocks?
19:50:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> kico: Solo:address vs
19:50:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> address
19:50:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> some pools solo: has a 3-5 second delay gettibg new blocks
19:51:05 <kico> you need to bump the number of connections on your node to prevent that someone else finds a block before the one "you found" is propagated
19:51:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> kico: No, just like the pool removes solo: and decided to keep more of the reward 
19:51:23 <kico> pool can't "steal blocks"
19:51:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> I dont think youre listening 
19:51:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yes they can LOL
19:51:39 <kico> yeah I'm having a hard time
19:51:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Either they pay ME because im mining solo
19:51:46 <kico> you are talking about a reorg?
19:51:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or thry DONT 
19:52:04 <kico> you mean pools for solo mining?
19:52:12 <kico> why not just solo mine then?
19:52:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> No, im saying the pool was rewarded for my found  block, i was not
19:52:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> I only solo xmr
19:52:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> To my own node
19:52:43 <kico> because you failed to propagate your block before they did
19:52:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> I mine shitcoins too though
19:52:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> kico: Smfh
19:52:55 <kico> the pool can't "steal" a block dude
19:52:57 <kico> sorry
19:52:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> ITS MY BLOCK ON CHAIN
19:53:09 <kico> ok
19:53:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> They just paid themself instead of me 
19:53:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> Tldr, dont mine on fastpool.xyz
19:54:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> Pools are custodial. They decide what to do with the funds
19:54:12 <kico> some pools scam the users yes 
19:54:17 <kico> not all tho
19:54:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> all i know if the best pools are centralized badly
19:55:14 <kico> yeah that's why p2pool was created
19:55:26 <kico> but like everything else in the universe it has tradeoffs
19:55:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> support, nano, hashvault are top tier
19:55:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> c3pool, Herominers, 2miners and kryptex cant seem to fix their block templates but are top pools
19:56:12 <kico> I would love that everyone would just solo but that never really happened organically and will be very hard to enforce on the protocol level
19:56:18 <kico> in a way is fair at least
19:56:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> Enforce? Why?
19:56:46 <kico> because if you don't there will always be pools
19:56:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> You cant stop me from running xmrig proxy
19:57:06 <kico> exactly
19:57:14 <RavFX[m]> Because there will always be people who want to mine in pools, specially these pool hopping people with autodump script that only want to maximize profit
19:57:17 <kico> you wanted that everyone solo mines right?
19:57:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> kico: So enfirce what?
19:57:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> kico: No
19:57:37 <ofrnxmr[m]> I said solo is better 
19:57:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Lol
19:57:45 <kico> then I have no clue what we discussing 
19:57:56 <kico> yeah I agree
19:58:03 <kico> 0 fees more decentralized
19:58:30 <kico> but unless you enforce solo mining (somehow) there will always be pools
19:58:42 <kico> because most people are lazy to run a node
19:58:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Im ofrnxmr and i like discussing, so we argue who agrees more dammit
19:58:52 <kico> and can't wait for months to hit a block
19:58:55 <kico> or years
19:59:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> its not as long as ppl think 
19:59:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> Calculators dont work fir solo mining 
19:59:23 <kico> ofrnxmr[m], I was just trying to recenter the "talk" since we seemed to be talking about different things :)
19:59:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> More like "average" 
19:59:34 <kico> it's luck or not
19:59:45 <kico> you can be lucky hit a block with 1% effort
19:59:54 <kico> or one with 200%
19:59:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> A bunch of em
20:00:05 <kico> that can be years depending on your HR
20:00:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ive never hit a block over 100%
20:00:22 <kico> awesome
20:00:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> Either i mine fir 2 years and hope hr stays low enough to keep it at 2 yrs
20:00:45 <RavFX[m]> I hit a blocks at over 300%.
20:00:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or i hit a block with a 1/720 chanch everyday 
20:01:03 <RavFX[m]> and also 20%
20:01:24 <kico> it tends to 100% over a long span of time
20:01:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> Tge 20% block 1 time is all it takes to justify solo
20:01:28 <RavFX[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: That's a nice way to see it
20:01:44 <kico> unfortunatly this is what people don't get ... on the long run you win the same solo or pool mining
20:01:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> Look at any centralized pool, go look at who found the last blocks
20:01:55 <kico> (less the pool fee)
20:02:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> Theres a lot of small miners hitting blocks on pools and trading 0.6 reward for the bet that the difficukty wont increase for years
20:02:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ill take my 0.6 now, ty
20:03:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not "oh look, now its 8 years"
20:03:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> "And i found 3 blocks already and donated all of them"
20:04:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> Seriously, if pool miners paid attention to the shares they are finding, they stop donating to botnet miners
20:04:56 <kico> how much HR you got ofrnxmr[m] ?
20:05:09 <nioc> solo mining in wownero has resulted in lower HR
20:05:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> not really
20:05:28 <nioc> for the network
20:05:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its like 100mh across the 3 chainsplits
20:05:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> Only 25 25 and 50 or so
20:06:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> Which i thought was higher than pre
20:06:24 <nioc> the solo miners are complaining about the possibility of going back to pool mining because it would mean less profit for them
20:06:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yeah, because nobody uses wow
20:07:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> 3 split chains, nobidy noticed 💀
20:07:35 <nioc> solo miners know that the HR will go up if pools are allowed 
20:07:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Shes a meme for bots to park some hr and a test attack network
20:07:45 <nioc> so they are crying
20:08:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> Wow is only like 10% more profitabke than xmr
20:08:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its nit 200% like before
20:08:51 <Guest17> Hi all - brand new here (both to IRC and monero) - is it possible/safe to package up a monero miner that runs as a process on someone else's device? Any thoughts on how to get started?
20:08:51 <nioc> oh wait, is this offtopic?
20:08:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> on moneroocean etc it wouldnt be algo switched to like it used to
20:09:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> Guest17: Someone ekses? 
20:10:20 <Guest17> ofrnxmr[m] - yeah, like say I have a "free" game that you can pay for by leaving it open and it uses your device to mine on my behalf
20:10:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yeah, send me package, i run it? Or do you mean like "1 click setup for noobs?" Or you mean "no click background mining in secret"?
20:10:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> Guest17: Not on windows
20:11:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> Windows doesnt like monero mining related libs and will likely nuke your game
20:11:52 <Guest17> ofrnxmr[m] - game asks permission (in game preferably), and then you leave it open while it mines
20:11:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> Unless you tell the players they need to add antivirus exceptions for monero mining utiks
20:12:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> look into Townforge
20:12:28 <kico> Guest17, that's an interesting model
20:12:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> As a game with POW 
20:12:49 <Guest17> ofrnxmr[m] - brilliant. Maybe the firewall exceptions could be a one-click accept
20:12:53 <kico> I think townforge was trying to be onchain game even
20:13:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> Townforge us a merge mined monero fork and video game
20:13:32 <Guest17> kico - nice. Yeah, imagine your character has to "go to the mines" and earns "gems" or something that allow you to proceed to new areas (like in an RPG)
20:13:54 <kico> Guest17, sounds fun :)
20:13:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> guest, really, townforge
20:13:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> Maybe can collab
20:14:31 <kico> Guest17, but ofrnxmr[m] is right you might encounter some problems related to the mining stuff windows hates it and some users could be freaked out
20:15:06 <Guest17> kico - but they're, you know, mining crypto
20:15:09 <kico> but if they know what they are going for ... then you might be able to work UI around it
20:15:38 <Guest17> kico - good to know. Townforge is open sourced - excellent.
20:15:46 <kico> just have a "windows will try to block this awesome game just say no!"
20:15:59 <kico> thingy in there xD
20:16:04 <Guest17> 👍
20:16:56 <kico> is townforge still being actively developed?
20:17:13 <kico> iMember it stalled a bit at some point
20:17:45 <Guest17> kico - last commit was ~3 weeks ago
20:17:52 <kico> sweet :)
20:19:40 <Guest17> I'm going full in on Monero and I want to get more involved. How do I create an account here?
20:19:51 <kico> on IRC?
20:19:52 <Guest17> So I'm not just "Guest"
20:20:02 <kico> /nickserv help
20:20:22 <Guest17> @kic
20:20:23 <kico> you oughta /nick yourhandle first
20:20:31 <Guest17> kico thx
20:20:35 <kico> yw!
20:20:52 <kico> and hey ping me for beta testing pls :)
20:26:44 <PanTheMan> Ok - and to register a nickname?
20:27:28 <PanTheMan> nvrmd - I guess these are well-known commands I can just look up. Sorry@
20:27:32 <PanTheMan> *!
20:28:23 <kico> PanTheMan, /nickserv help
20:28:29 <kico> you have what you need there
20:29:01 <kico> /nickserv help register
20:44:50 <PanTheMan> kico - thanks for the help. I'll definitely ping you for beta testing. The game might (probably) be NSFW for sexual content (nothing illegal). You cool with that?
20:47:54 <PanTheMan> Guess I should probably keep this about Monero =L
20:52:19 <kico> PanTheMan, yeah I'm ok with that :D
20:52:24 <kico> np man
20:52:26 <kico> anytime
21:44:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> <PanTheMan> "Guess I should probably keep..." <- Monero Community Dev  and Monero Offtopic  are fine