02:16:29 <side-trips[m]> I heard there's a small chance secret service might have invented xmr
02:32:12 <cockliuser[m]> Better yet, the NSA
02:32:31 <cockliuser[m]> Nicholas SAberhagen 
02:32:35 <cockliuser[m]> NSA
02:34:16 <side-trips[m]> What's the goto if that gets revealed as true? Zcash? 
02:37:48 <meow[m]> side-trips[m]: Wownero
02:38:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> side-trips[m]: Zcash was invented by nsa
02:39:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> One of the trusted signers is even snowden lol
02:39:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> Criminal scammer
02:39:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> Dev fee 20%, guy always side talking monero and boosting his bags
02:41:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> Zcash an an alternative to what? Another scam, perhaps. 
02:41:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> Tech is only as good as its implementation 
02:46:45 <meow[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "One of the trusted signers is..." <- he's such a traitor, can't believe he released our national secrets and fled to russia.
02:47:39 <meow[m]> he was probably a russian spy even before he released those documents.
02:47:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> And shilled zcash the whole time
02:50:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> <side-trips[m]> "I heard there's a small chance..." <- And if it was, who cares? We're here now 
02:54:14 <side-trips[m]> Feel like they could have some backdoors or 0-days
09:32:46 <dreamcity[m]> <side-trips[m]> "Feel like they could have some..." <- Unless, you have a strong and concrete reason to think otherwise, who cares right? I mean, It will always be impossible to prove a negative  and It might be easier to target low hanging fruit. Why target monero itself, when you can target the super insecure computers and smartphones most people are keeping their coins on, lol
09:33:47 <dreamcity[m]> That being said, we shouldn't let our guards down and still verify, but I wouldn't lose my sleep over it.
09:35:10 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Monero will end involuntary taxation.
11:58:21 <Mumuks> From the two companies that do Monero hardware wallets, Trezor and Ledger, what do people here prefer and why?
12:18:36 <chesterfield[m]> Ledger just added kyc backup for your key
12:22:53 <DataHoarder> can just not use it
12:29:39 <Mumuks> <chesterfield[m]> "Ledger just added kyc backup for..." <- Yeah, I'm aware: https://beincrypto.com/ledger-recover-cloud-seed-phrase-feature/
12:30:20 <Mumuks> That is one of the reasons I'm leaning Trezor. But they are big Block stream ass lickers, so I would prefer something else. But seems they are the best option for Monero.
12:30:52 <cockliuser[m]> <DataHoarder> "can just not use it" <- Still, Ledger is closed source that already makes Trezor 2x better
12:31:19 <cockliuser[m]> There's also the WIP Monero firmware for the Passport wallet
12:31:22 <DataHoarder> is trezor hw open source? I guess they don't include a secure element
12:31:32 <DataHoarder> ledger apps themselves are open source, though
12:32:34 <DataHoarder> secure elements are finicky cause, yeah, not many out there are open source
12:32:44 <cockliuser[m]> DataHoarder: Apps?
12:32:51 <cockliuser[m]> I'm talking about the hardware and firmware 
12:32:58 <DataHoarder> but without the secure element you can just extract the keys from an offline token (then just protected by pin, bypassing limits)
12:33:00 <cockliuser[m]> Both of those are open source for Trezor 
12:33:29 <DataHoarder> stuff like https://github.com/LedgerHQ/app-monero
12:33:59 <DataHoarder> yep, trezor to do that lacks a "secure element"
12:34:18 <DataHoarder> which opens a different kind of attacks, making a "pin/password tries limit" not really hold up
12:34:34 <cockliuser[m]> The passport wallet has a secure element iirc
12:34:51 <DataHoarder> is that secure element also open source? I need to refresh my memory in the ones that are
12:35:13 <cockliuser[m]> Don't think so, but everything else is 
12:35:36 <cockliuser[m]> https://github.com/mjg-foundation/passport2-monero
12:35:45 <cockliuser[m]> Ledger also had many data leaks in the past
12:36:05 <DataHoarder> yeah using any of their "cloud" or "site" services is insane
12:36:06 <DataHoarder> don't do it
12:36:17 <DataHoarder> thankfully not related to the hw itself
12:36:35 <DataHoarder> both Trezor / Ledger have also been affected by security issues, Trezor response is nice
12:37:01 <DataHoarder> but most of Trezor ones keep coming up all the time and some are unworkable due to physical access = memory stolen
12:37:38 <DataHoarder> I think I have the initial Passport version around
12:37:40 <dreamcity[m]> cockliuser[m]: What I say will be controversial, but most hardware wallets were never supposed to be invincible, nor for long term storage of crypto. They were just supposed to be a convenient way of holding a small amount of crypto for transactions in a "secure enough" way against casual attackers. 
12:38:08 <DataHoarder> ^ I use them mainly for multisig setups
12:38:12 <cockliuser[m]> Hardware wallets are just small airgapped computers
12:38:14 <DataHoarder> it's convenient indeed
12:38:33 <cockliuser[m]> cockliuser[m]: They're much more secure than software wallets IMO because of the airgapped part
12:38:50 <cockliuser[m]> But closed source ones add that element of "trust" that I don't like
12:39:47 <sech1> ledger is not airgapped because it technically can send out the seed
12:40:07 <k4r4b3y[m]1> dreamcity[m]: I can do the latter on a regular computer or phone, too. So if that was the goal, why buy an extra device?
12:40:47 <dreamcity[m]> cockliuser[m]: More secure than hot wallets (sw wallets on a pc connected to internet)? Sure. Compared to an airgapped pc wallet, It's not always obvious which one is more secure and It depends a lot
12:41:54 <cockliuser[m]> Yeah but most people aren't going to set up an airgapped computer for signing transactions 
12:47:24 <dreamcity[m]> <k4r4b3y[m]1> "I can do the latter on a regular..." <- I don't disagree, but a hardware wallet is always going to be a bit more secure than a regular smartphone (even the "insecure" and poorly implemented hardware wallets), It's still a little peace of mind even for small transactions. But your point stands indeed.
12:51:37 <k4r4b3y[m]1> dreamcity[m]: > <@dreamcity:matrix.org> 
12:51:37 <k4r4b3y[m]1> > I don't disagree, but a hardware wallet is always going to be a bit more secure than a regular smartphone (even the "insecure" and poorly implemented hardware wallets), It's still a little peace of mind even for small transactions. But your point stands indeed.
12:51:37 <k4r4b3y[m]1> the point isn't whether a smartphone or a hardware wallet more secure. The point is, for small amounts (as you posit the scenario) you don't need that high security anyways.
12:57:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> About as secure as your trust level in the company 
12:58:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ledger doesnt even show correct xmr seed
12:58:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> Break your usb port or screen, then what?
12:58:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> ledger releases a breaking update OTA, then goes out of business, then what?
12:59:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> Do you trust that your ledger will work in 15 years? Or plan on buying the lastest every couple years?
13:00:20 <sech1> seed engraved on a steel plate to the rescue
13:00:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> so why would i need a hw wallet
13:00:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> If i have a seed backup, hw wallet doesnt protect ne
13:01:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> Purpose of hw wallet it to avoid being brute forced, no?
13:01:34 <dreamcity[m]> sech1: This, but unironically. For long term storage,  encrypted paper wallets at multiple physical locations + brain wallet (remembering the key) should be more than overkill to not lose keys
13:02:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> To be able to spend without ever risking keys 
13:04:07 <dreamcity[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: If you plug in your hardware wallet to an untrusted computer connected to internet, you are taking a small risk (there can be vulnerabilities and It happened in the past in some hw vendors)
13:04:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> safer if i just use ny phone 
13:05:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> Plugging into random usb ports, or devices ive left unattended = sill to me
13:05:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> Store my big bucks on a paper wallet
13:06:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> Probably just as easy (easier) to crack into my bank app as to get into cake wallet 
13:06:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> I dont use a hw wallet for my bank app 🫡
13:09:50 <k4r4b3y[m]1> <sech1> "seed engraved on a steel plate..." <- > <@sech1:libera.chat> seed engraved on a steel plate to the rescue
13:09:50 <DataHoarder> 14:59:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> Do you trust that your ledger will work in 15 years? Or plan on buying the lastest every couple years?
13:09:50 <k4r4b3y[m]1> redpill me on this. I understand that the steel plate protects against fire hazards, but I can't bring myself to have my seed words lying around unencrypted, easy for the seeing.
13:09:57 <DataHoarder> no, as sech1 said, seed words stored
13:10:15 <DataHoarder> I setup an extra "passphrase" each time to use the ledger/trezor/etc.
13:11:08 <sech1> you can engrave an encrypted seed on a steel plate, and keep the password in your head
13:11:30 <sech1> Monero CLI/GUI wallets have support for this
13:12:11 <k4r4b3y[m]1> sech1: > <@sech1:libera.chat> you can engrave an encrypted seed on a steel plate, and keep the password in your head
13:12:11 <k4r4b3y[m]1> cool.
13:27:48 <mlcboss[m]> <sech1> "you can engrave an encrypted..." <- why not qr code on paper
13:28:08 <sech1> paper burns
13:28:50 <vdo> it can also decompose
13:30:04 <vdo> not safe long term 
13:31:36 <mlcboss[m]> cover it in plastic
13:33:54 <nioc> if you keep a password in your head you can keep a seed in your head
13:34:18 <nioc> but the head is not a safe place for anything 
13:35:05 <mlcboss[m]> nioc: i save all my password in a memory palace
13:35:06 <mlcboss[m]> but yeah i hit by a car and i will forget everything 
13:35:16 <dreamcity[m]> nioc: It is safe, but It's still better to have backups, just in case.
13:36:04 <dreamcity[m]> mlcboss[m]: > <@mlcboss:matrix.org> i save all my password in a memory palace
13:36:04 <dreamcity[m]> > 
13:36:04 <dreamcity[m]> > but yeah i hit by a car and i will forget everything
13:36:04 <dreamcity[m]> If you forget everything, you can forget where you put your steel plate too :P . At some point, you will have to cut corners and not be too paranoid
13:36:09 <nioc> it is safe until it is not
13:37:02 <nioc> as always people have different risk tolerance
13:39:27 <nioc> sorry guys but my coins will still be able to be used after imma gone  :D
14:02:23 <mlcboss[m]> <dreamcity[m]> "> <@mlcboss:matrix.org> i save..." <- i store my paper seed in my wallet 
15:15:30 <lza_menace> my favorite band on Project Coral Reef no longer takes XMR at their store :sad_pepe:
15:49:53 <mlcboss[m]> <lza_menace> "my favorite band on Project..." <- why? government ban?
15:59:43 <nioc> no, aliens 
16:23:16 <plowsof11> Can we sponsor aliens to start making Monero themed crop circles 
16:24:35 <nioc> best marketing idea ever 
17:05:46 <riceandbeans> Would you give out your monero address or generate a new address within your wallet for each person?
17:07:44 <k4r4b3y[m]1> riceandbeans: New address per person
17:10:59 <riceandbeans> How many addresses can I have with a wallet?
17:11:26 <mlcboss[m]> riceandbeans: infinite
17:14:06 <riceandbeans> That's my favorite number
22:35:28 <MajesticBank> https://ccs.getmonero.org/funding-required/