00:21:30 <gingeropolous> well ill just try restarting the daemon why not
00:24:27 <gingeropolous> well that didn't do it
00:25:09 <gingeropolous> dangit
00:30:14 <gingeropolous> oh shit. my conf already had 2 priority nodes
00:30:15 <gingeropolous> wtf
00:50:35 <TrasherDK[m]> <merope> "Hell nah, you have to be careful..." <- ^ This was the point of my post. Software on the stick has to come from some external source. Any hub between source and destination could potentially be compromised.
00:55:39 <nsaunders> how long do secondary wallet addresses persist?
01:08:19 <TrasherDK[m]> Until you delete the wallets .key file
01:10:42 <TrasherDK[m]> It's not like they stop existing, they are just hidden, kinda.
03:13:57 <gingeropolous> its glorious seein monerod use 800% cpu
03:34:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> Strange behavior. Imo those nodes should be getting banned and the blocks discarded and redownloaded from a good peer
03:34:29 <nsaunders> if the .key file is deleted, but then monero is sent to a secondary address, will the transaction be reflected in an account which is later recovered from the seed file?
03:34:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> What is a secondary address 
03:35:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> A subaddress?
03:35:11 <nsaunders> I dunno. in the wallet GUI you can create addresses.
03:35:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> They persist forever
03:35:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> As do subaccounts
03:35:28 <nsaunders> thx
03:35:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yeah, so a subaddress
03:35:49 <nsaunders> subaddress then :)
03:35:56 <ofrnxmr[m]>  Yes the seed will restore you addresses
03:36:23 <nsaunders> Interesting
03:36:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> But not labels etc. That is stored locally
03:36:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> nsaunders: Its the same with just abt every crypto
03:37:04 <nsaunders> k
03:37:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> All addresses are indexes
03:37:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> Like 1,1 1,2 1,3 1,4
03:38:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> Account#,address#
08:39:14 <rickandmortyisno> hello
08:41:07 <rickandmortyisno> i recently just read a somewhat old article ( 2018 ) about monero, and it was saying that the mixins is vulnerable and that most people dont use it. Has this been patched or fixed? and if not how do i add mixins to my transactions 
08:44:00 <modul8[m]> rickandmortyisno: i may be wrong but that sounds wrong even for 2018. every tx now has ring of 16, it used to be user choice i think.
08:45:00 <rickandmortyisno> that makes sense 
08:46:05 <modul8[m]> dont like rick and morty what about the venture bros.?
08:47:48 <rickandmortyisno> nah i just made that username up lmao
08:48:20 <rickandmortyisno> it was the first thing that came up in my mind while having to create a username 
08:50:19 <rickandmortyisno> so ive heard a lot of people claim that the only crypto that actually matters is monero and i am convinced but what do you guys think, do you think that monero is future proof 
08:53:00 <modul8[m]> internet money should be private. i dont see why a private messenger and money is any different. it all comes down to the developers. i think the dev community is pretty healthy. privacy is a need not a want so i think there will be user and dev demand for it.
08:56:37 <modul8[m]> monero price is probably controlled by early bitcoiners and exchanges with vested interest. i didnt think bitcoin would succeed because its absurd for someone to just create money and not get taken out. learning its not private at all just made it uninteresting to me as all i see are attack vectors on the users. also the 21 million hardcap is a ponzi.
09:00:51 <rickandmortyisno> <modul8[m]> "internet money should be private..." <- right, i heard someone once say that the only way monero would become obsolete is if someone found a better way to do it, possibly some other type of tech that would make the fees non existent. Not really too sure how someone would do that or make that though
09:03:45 <ocean[m]> <rickandmortyisno> "i recently just read a somewhat..." <- it was this one wasn't it https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/65dj7u/an_empirical_analysis_of_linkability_in_the/
09:03:57 <rickandmortyisno> ocean[m]: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1704.04299/
09:03:58 <rickandmortyisno> this one 
09:04:57 <ocean[m]> yes that's the one I linked
09:05:25 <ocean[m]> it was outdated even when it dropped
09:09:29 <rickandmortyisno> ah okay, good to know 
10:11:01 <blicero[m]> Do the new EU MiCA regulations affect Monero? 
10:11:01 <blicero[m]> I gave the PDF they put out a read but I'm still not clear if it only affects coins pegged to fiat.
10:11:33 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Whatever their regulations are, they are irrelevant.
10:12:08 <k4r4b3y[m]1> You can't put a gun to the head of a math equation, a computer code, etc.
10:13:31 <k4r4b3y[m]1> They have 0 authority over the self-governing communities in the cyberspace.
10:14:22 <k4r4b3y[m]1> They loove their democracy, right? Here's a demos, utilizing their own kratos.
10:20:37 <blicero[m]> What? They can absolutely enforce regulation on trading institutions like FTX.
10:20:48 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Monero doesn't care.
10:21:06 <blicero[m]> kek
10:26:16 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Ftx is/was/ponzi cex. Its different to a digital coin. Cant ban what they cant track.
10:26:37 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Yes. Come and find it.
10:31:52 <DanIsnotthemanBr> https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/05/16/anti-money-laundering-council-adopts-rules-which-will-make-crypto-asset-transfers-traceable/
10:31:52 <DanIsnotthemanBr> “Today’s decision is bad news for those who have misused crypto-assets for their illegal activities, to circumvent EU sanctions or to finance terrorism and <u>war</u>”
10:32:19 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Those who throw rocks in glass house
10:32:32 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Shouldnt start wars
10:33:39 <DanIsnotthemanBr> s/house/houses/
10:43:36 <blicero[m]> <DanIsnotthemanBr> "https://www.consilium.europa.eu..." <- > <@123bob123:matrix.org> https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/05/16/anti-money-laundering-council-adopts-rules-which-will-make-crypto-asset-transfers-traceable/
10:43:36 <blicero[m]> > 
10:43:36 <blicero[m]> > “Today’s decision is bad news for those who have misused crypto-assets for their illegal activities, to circumvent EU sanctions or to finance terrorism and <u>war</u>”
10:43:36 <blicero[m]> Don't think the EU has started any wars so far.
10:43:49 <k4r4b3y[m]1> <DanIsnotthemanBr> "https://www.consilium.europa.eu..." <- > <@123bob123:matrix.org> https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2023/05/16/anti-money-laundering-council-adopts-rules-which-will-make-crypto-asset-transfers-traceable/
10:43:49 <k4r4b3y[m]1> > 
10:43:49 <k4r4b3y[m]1> > “Today’s decision is bad news for those who have misused crypto-assets for their illegal activities, to circumvent EU sanctions or to finance terrorism and <u>war</u>”
10:43:49 <k4r4b3y[m]1> "stfu tyrant" -- https://www.bitchute.com/video/sppcRLqkgbri/
10:44:36 <blicero[m]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe#21st_century
10:44:42 <k4r4b3y[m]1> blicero[m]: > <@blicero:matrix.org> 
10:44:42 <k4r4b3y[m]1> > Don't think the EU has started any wars so far.
10:44:42 <k4r4b3y[m]1> "finance war"
10:45:13 <blicero[m]> Like financing wars or war on finance concepts or what?
10:45:26 <k4r4b3y[m]1> dyor
10:45:51 <blicero[m]> kek
10:46:24 <blicero[m]> I'll do my own research on finding a cryptocurrency forum that's not fanatic, thanks.
10:46:32 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Yw
10:46:53 <k4r4b3y[m]1> I heard zcash is pretty compliant btw
10:47:22 <k4r4b3y[m]1> I am sure they will welcome you with open arms.
10:48:11 <r4v3r23[m]> blicero[m]: like 0% financing on a car, but war
10:50:27 <DanIsnotthemanBr> <blicero[m]> "> <@123bob123:matrix.org> https:..." <- No, but you make money off war and then say where monitoring it for terrorism and financing wars reasons. 
10:51:49 <k4r4b3y[m]1> "It's ok when we do it."
10:53:34 <DanIsnotthemanBr> They can stop the war in ukraine, but when its more profitable to provide”aid” worth millions of dollar i dont know where they get the money from when they are trillion dollar debt.
10:53:56 <DanIsnotthemanBr> s/dollar/dollars/
10:56:33 <blicero[m]> DanIsnotthemanBr: I don't really see how the EU can stop the Ukraine war in a way that doesn't tip it over to Russia.
10:56:33 <blicero[m]> I'm not a fan of whataboutism but the US has been the biggest contributor.
10:57:01 <blicero[m]> DanIsnotthemanBr: They will basically own the country afterwards. Get at that farming land.
10:57:18 <blicero[m]> Probably get it in the EU.
10:57:19 <k4r4b3y[m]1> blicero[m]: > <@blicero:matrix.org> 
10:57:19 <k4r4b3y[m]1> > I don't really see how the EU can stop the Ukraine war in a way that doesn't tip it over to Russia.
10:57:19 <k4r4b3y[m]1> > I'm not a fan of whataboutism but the US has been the biggest contributor.
10:57:19 <k4r4b3y[m]1> US, EU and NATO are one and the same..
10:57:57 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Don't give me that look you know it's true.
10:59:35 <Stnby[m]> Move onto offtopic
10:59:39 <blicero[m]> I don't think you can reduce two continents to one concept but I agree. The EU is an American construct and still controls it in some ways, particularly military-wise, with the consent of the European countries.
10:59:50 <blicero[m]> * I agree somewhat. The
10:59:57 <plowsof11> #monero-offtopic:monero.social #cryptoagorism:nokyc.im 
11:00:14 <blicero[m]> Yeah we're quite far off-topic now, apologies.
11:00:27 <k4r4b3y[m]1> :join #cryptoagorism:nokyc.im
11:00:30 <k4r4b3y[m]1> lol
11:00:50 <plowsof11> #monero-markets:monero.social 
11:01:04 <k4r4b3y[m]1> k4r4b3y[m]1: > <@k4r4b3y:karapara.net> :join #cryptoagorism:nokyc.im
11:01:04 <k4r4b3y[m]1> > 
11:01:04 <k4r4b3y[m]1> is that room invite only btw?
11:01:56 <Stnby[m]> Don't hang out in that room too often, brain cancer incubator
11:02:26 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Someone send an invite
11:02:37 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Nutters there?
11:03:45 <Stnby[m]> k4r4b3y[m]1: Pretty sure you can just join
11:03:46 <Stnby[m]> https://matrix.to/#/!QvpwoxkAEBRdNwsRPV:nokyc.im?via=kernal.eu&via=matrix.org&via=monero.social
11:04:06 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Stnby[m]: > <@stnby:kernal.eu> Pretty sure you can just join
11:04:07 <k4r4b3y[m]1> > https://matrix.to/#/!QvpwoxkAEBRdNwsRPV:nokyc.im?via=kernal.eu&via=matrix.org&via=monero.social
11:04:07 <k4r4b3y[m]1> I am getting "you are not invited"
11:06:21 <Stnby[m]> k4r4b3y[m]1: I don't have perms to invite anyone
11:49:22 <diones> Hey guys wassup
11:51:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> 👁️‍🗨️
14:06:18 <diones> Does somebody here have a monero forum ?
14:07:05 <r4v3r23[m]> <k4r4b3y[m]1> "> <@stnby:kernal.eu> Pretty sure..." <- that rooms lame as fuck run by a wannabe dictator
14:13:07 <rottenwheel> Ah, love is in the air! 
14:15:48 <mlcboss[m]> is it ok to track customer with face recognition and beacon technology so customers can get better recommendations & discount?
14:15:48 <mlcboss[m]> i mean manipulate the customers to buy more 
14:18:12 <mlcboss[m]> monero can't prevent that right hehe 😁
14:24:31 <side-trips[m]> <Stnby[m]> "Pretty sure you can just join..." <- > <@stnby:kernal.eu> Pretty sure you can just join
14:24:31 <side-trips[m]> > https://matrix.to/#/!QvpwoxkAEBRdNwsRPV:nokyc.im?via=kernal.eu&via=matrix.org&via=monero.social
14:24:31 <side-trips[m]> I also want into the secret club
14:39:35 <side-trips[m]> Do monero blogs get aggregated anywhere? Seth was the only homie I knew of, but apparently he's compromised for working on something that isn't wow ig
14:42:48 <Rucknium[m]> side-trips: Not really blogs, but try https://themonero.dance/
14:48:23 <side-trips[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "side-trips: Not really blogs..." <- This is awesome, thanks for this, and kudos to whoever made it!
15:01:08 <hanser[m]> Friends, I would like to know approximately how much time Monero's ring signature consumes in signing and verification. Because my device is currently unable to run Monero, so I am seeking your assistance. Thank you.😗
15:07:44 <Rucknium[m]> hanser: This may help: https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/91
15:08:27 <Rucknium[m]> Look at the CLSAG results. CLSAG definition: https://www.getmonero.org/resources/moneropedia/clsag.html
15:09:08 <hanser[m]> Thanks😀
15:12:39 <jeffro256[m]> New Vulnerability Disclosure here: https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/8872
15:22:01 <DataHoarder> nice writeup
15:40:10 <r4v3r23[m]> so if you wait at least 1 block after funds being unlocked you are unaffected?
15:41:33 <r4v3r23[m]> <jeffro256[m]> "New Vulnerability Disclosure..." <- so for wallets on versions < 0.18.2.2, if you wait at least 1 block after funds being unlocked you are unaffected?
15:46:05 <hanser[m]> I would like to compare the proof efficiency and the respective advantages and disadvantages of ring signatures and zk-SNARKs zero-knowledge proofs.🥳
15:57:15 <Rucknium[m]> hanser: Me, too. But I am not aware of any head-to-head comparison on signing and verification time.
16:05:56 <hanser[m]> The conclusion I have reached so far is that zk-SNARKs have significantly longer proof generation time but shorter verification time, which is more important for blockchain applications. Additionally, zk-SNARKs offer slightly higher security.🤔
16:09:14 <Rucknium[m]> hanser: You should also check wallet scan time
16:37:05 <xfedex[m]> Isn't wallet scan time == proof verification time?
16:40:31 <Rucknium[m]> Unless I'm missing something about the cryptography, no. The question of whether a tx is valid (which everyone can check) is different from "Is this output mine?/Did I already spend this output?", which only a user involved in a tx can check.
16:41:24 <Rucknium[m]> For example, View Tags were implemented in the August 2022 hard fork. They decreased wallet scan times, but AFAIK they did not decrease verification time.
19:01:47 <imprevisto[m]> hanser: this looks good a little technical https://unblock.net/ringct-vs-zk-snark/
19:03:28 <imprevisto[m]> looks like published after 2018, not sure of exact date
19:03:37 <imprevisto[m]> or during 2018
19:04:20 <imprevisto[m]> I think the new zk systems no trusted setup
19:04:55 <imprevisto[m]> Zk-SNARK criticism 1 there
19:05:37 <imprevisto[m]> there's a lot of reddit material but a lot of incorrect or partly incorrect info there too
19:05:46 <r4v3r23[m]> zk-starks were discussed years ago
19:06:21 <imprevisto[m]> this is from 2022 but I didn't read it yet https://blog.pantherprotocol.io/ring-signatures-vs-zksnarks-comparing-privacy-technologies/
19:58:42 <susman1[m]> <r4v3r23[m]> "zk-starks were discussed years..." <- bit of a hype train if I am honest
20:01:21 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Full membership proofs bro
20:15:26 <r4v3r23[m]> <susman1[m]> "bit of a hype train if I am..." <- seth is a johnny-come-lately, he didnt start anything new
20:15:39 <susman1[m]> fr
20:29:25 <side-trips[m]> Which is more helpful/impactful to the network (and why) running a node or mining? I don't mean incentive here either, just general utility/practicality
20:30:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> Doesnt matter
20:30:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> Impactful = depends on your hashrate
20:30:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> Helpful = just spending monero is helpful
20:31:12 <k4r4b3y[m]1> And hoarding
20:31:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> Hoarding isnt really
20:32:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> hoarding can lead to value apretiation 
20:32:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> Appreciation 
20:32:55 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Spending is helpful because it helps cycle the decoys?
20:33:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> But its largely indirect. Plenty of POS chains that prove as much
20:33:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Scarcity doesnt = anything, unless the asset is in demand
20:33:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> k4r4b3y[m]1: also because it pays miners
20:35:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> Id rather mine 0.66 blocks than 0.6
20:35:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Mining is a service 
20:36:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> I mine your transactions
20:37:32 <k4r4b3y[m]1> What's the current percentage of tottal tx fee per block to block reward?
20:37:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> No transactions to mine, what am i mining for?
20:37:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> A pyramid scheme?
20:37:56 <k4r4b3y[m]1> ofrnxmr[m]: You are mining for the block reward.
20:38:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> About 10% on the high end
20:38:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> But much lower on avg
20:38:37 <ofrnxmr[m]> k4r4b3y[m]1: Thats a pryamid scheme
20:38:44 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort***> bitinfocharts.com tells me fees are currently 1.5% of the total block reward
20:38:46 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort***> at least on average
20:38:50 <k4r4b3y[m]1> ofrnxmr[m]: As expected. Monero was specifically designed not to rely on tx fees being a significant portion of the miner payouts. Wrong
20:38:58 <k4r4b3y[m]1> * As expected. Monero was specifically designed not to rely on tx fees being a significant portion of the miner payouts. Wrong?
20:39:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> Mining for the block reward? What a shitcoin
20:39:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> Youre supposed to get rewarded with tx fees
20:39:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> Because, yknow, the blockchain is supposed to work
20:39:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> k4r4b3y[m]1: Wrong
20:39:44 <k4r4b3y[m]1> ofrnxmr[m]: This is the btc-chain
20:39:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monero is designed to not die today due to no reward 
20:39:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monero is designed so that the reward shrinks as fees grow
20:39:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> And that fees can and should exlipse the rewsrd
20:40:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> The reward is not a reward
20:40:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> 0.6xmr/2min is 1/6th of the worlds current rate of population growth
20:40:42 <k4r4b3y[m]1> ofrnxmr[m]: The individual fees per tx gets shrinked, afaik. That's what I heard 
20:40:47 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort***> tho I doubt we'll see fees surpass the 0.6 XMR mark per block
20:40:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> In other words, 1/6th as much as it shoukd be if we had global adoption
20:40:55 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort***> at least within our lifetimes
20:41:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> k4r4b3y[m]1: Yes, individuak fees shrinks AFTER a new block size is reached 
20:41:15 <side-trips[m]> well Imma run a node to feel like I'm helping the network even if I'm not
20:41:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> But total fees grow and eclipse the block reward
20:41:41 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort***> running a node is also good security practice
20:41:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> And while reaching a new block size, fees much go up
20:42:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> You pay miners to increase the block size for your transactions
20:42:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Eithrr you remain limited to 0.6xmr or you one day have 3xmr in fees
20:43:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you remove the reward, its another scam like btc
20:43:13 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Is 0.6 xmr bad? It also depends on its purchasing power.
20:43:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> Where thr supply is "early adopters only"
20:43:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> And doesnt account for population growth or adoption
20:43:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> k4r4b3y[m]1: Depends on adoption / reach
20:43:44 <k4r4b3y[m]1> ofrnxmr[m]: Wait I don't get this remark.
20:43:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> If we hit 1/6th of worth population, its perfect 
20:44:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> If we hit less, its slightly inflationary
20:44:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> If we hit more, deflationary
20:44:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> k4r4b3y[m]1: The reward allow new children to have access to new money
20:44:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> The population was 6b a few years ago
20:45:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> 18m/6b 
20:45:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> what happens when 6b more people are born?
20:45:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> The hoards hoard?
20:46:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> Simply the rate of inflation is 1/6th the rate of population growth 
20:46:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> So 40k today remains 40k tomorrow
20:46:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> (assuming 1/6th global adoption)
20:46:31 <Alex|LocalMonero> When you use "inflationary" do you mean the neoclassical interpretation or the austrian?
20:46:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> I mean the ofrnxmr interpretation. Brb googling
20:47:17 <Alex|LocalMonero> Guessing neoclassical in that case.
20:47:29 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Well even with monero's inflation rate, you won't quench the thirst for new money if the monero's userbase doubles (12b people in your example). Monero's inflation rate wasn't put taking such rate of change in monetary-unit demands.
20:48:35 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Monero's inflation (or its emission rate) isn't adaptive. It was a good guess that was done 9 yrs ago.
20:48:41 <Alex|LocalMonero> In that case it's hard to predict whether the XMR economy will have a deflationary or inflationary tendency, as time preference and the need for money varies greatly between people.
20:48:51 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Yeah
20:49:20 <Alex|LocalMonero> Gold had quite an unpredictable supply and yet prices remained quite stable historically.
20:49:23 <k4r4b3y[m]1> I am countering ofrn's supposition that purely xmr having tail emission makes it better than btc with no tail emission
20:49:47 <k4r4b3y[m]1> With regards to answering the demans for its units.
20:49:51 <Alex|LocalMonero> Tail emission is better, because coin loss happens.
20:49:57 <k4r4b3y[m]1> I like xmr 's tail emission is better
20:50:07 <k4r4b3y[m]1> I was countering ofrn's example
20:51:01 <Alex|LocalMonero> BTC is destined to hard fork for smaller subidivisions when coin loss will lead to 1 sat being too valuable.
20:51:17 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Ofrn seems to believe that xmr's tail emission provides better solution to demand in xmr units. I say xmr protocol is totally unaware in such demand changes to its units. So it cannot satisfy the change in the demand to its units.
20:51:19 <Alex|LocalMonero> s/subidivisions/subdivisions/
20:51:32 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort***> > The population was 6b a few years ago
20:51:32 <bridgerton[m]> Just checked that was 1999, just saying
20:51:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Id say neoclassical after a quick read 
20:52:00 <k4r4b3y[m]1> * Ofrn seems to believe that xmr's tail emission provides better solution to change in demand to xmr units. I say xmr protocol is totally unaware in such demand changes to its units. So it cannot satisfy the change in the demand to its units.
20:52:10 <k4r4b3y[m]1> * Ofrn seems to believe that xmr's tail emission provides better solution to change in demand to xmr units. I say xmr protocol is totally unaware to such demand changes to its units. So it cannot satisfy the change in the demand to its units.
20:52:27 <Alex|LocalMonero> k4r4b3y[m]1: You're right, it's like a broken clock that might happen to be correct if the growth in demand perfectly matches the tail emission rate.
20:52:40 <Alex|LocalMonero> It's not actively adaptive towards changes in demand, nor should it be.
20:52:40 <k4r4b3y[m]1> <ofrnxmr[m]> "18m/6b..." <- > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> 18m/6b 
20:52:40 <k4r4b3y[m]1> > 
20:52:40 <k4r4b3y[m]1> > what happens when 6b more people are born?
20:52:40 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Like, this point doesn't make sense. 
20:52:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Alex|LocalMonero: ^ exactlt why xmr doesnt have this problem as long as we remain under 1/6th the current population
20:53:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> xmr has 18m in circulation
20:53:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> Btc has 19
20:53:21 <k4r4b3y[m]1> k4r4b3y[m]1: Simply because there is 0.6 xmr every 2 minutes doesn't mean this will be an adequate speed of money creation.
20:53:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> in 100 years btc will only allow access to 10% more btc
20:54:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> k4r4b3y[m]1: Assuminfg CURRENT rate of pupulation growth, yes it does
20:54:30 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort***> population growth rates are changing fast though
20:55:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> For 1/6th of the world or  1.3b users
20:55:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> bridgerton[m]: They are
20:56:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> Which is why the 0.6 might not be adequate long term, but right now we have far less than 1/6th of world population living in xmr econonies
20:57:58 <Alex|LocalMonero> There's about $50 trillion M0+M1 globally
20:58:19 <Alex|LocalMonero> about 8b people
20:58:58 <Alex|LocalMonero> Which equates to an average of $6250 per human on earth
21:00:03 <Rucknium[m]> The equation of exchange is a good starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_exchange
21:01:20 <Alex|LocalMonero> If XMR had a market cap of $50t, with 18m in circulation, one piconero would be worth 0.000002777778 USD
21:02:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats 1xmr @ 2.7m?
21:03:02 <Alex|LocalMonero> Which means that the average XMR per human (assuming all humans hold XMR) is 0.00225 XMR 
21:03:09 <Alex|LocalMonero> ofrnxmr[m]: Yes.
21:12:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Alex | LocalMonero | AgoraDesk:  ty
21:13:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> I totally forgpt what math i did, but now i remember 
21:14:46 <Alex|LocalMonero> Maybe you calculated using just M0?
21:21:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> 1/6th of money supply 50t / 6 = 8.33t... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/048e0e029d208b6449e0bd2014bb0bbd20ac287b>)
21:21:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> I did the original math from from a different starting point, but seems to check out
21:22:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> Alex | LocalMonero | AgoraDesk:  let me know if i messed up
21:40:47 <Capybara[m]> hey
21:40:53 <Capybara[m]> is http://trocador.app/ safe?
21:41:33 <lza_menace> as safe as a third party swap aggregator could be, sure
21:41:41 <lza_menace> many people have used it successfully
21:42:41 <Capybara[m]> any fees?
21:42:48 <Capybara[m]> using http://trocador.app/
21:43:29 <Capybara[m]> not the third party swap
21:43:34 <Capybara[m]> them self
21:43:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> No
21:45:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> Trocador.i2p as well if you want a more private entrypoint
21:45:42 <lza_menace> i believe they only collect fees from the swap services they integrate by receiving parts of their fees
21:46:17 <Capybara[m]> cool
21:46:20 <Capybara[m]> thanks 
21:47:14 <lza_menace> Morpheus[m] is involved and can give more factual answers :)
21:47:23 <Alex|LocalMonero> <ofrnxmr[m]> "1/6th of money supply 50t / 6 =..." <- > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> 1/6th of money supply 50t / 6 = 8.33t... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/1ab48b4ae1a27e24e1aa991b606e69c762b643bf>)
21:48:41 <Alex|LocalMonero> recall that a relatively small amount of money today can be used to achieve the same quality of life as it took the richest egyptian pharaohs to achieve 4000 years ago
21:49:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> The 1/6 was becauee i started my math initially from the bottom and scaled up
21:49:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Instead of from 50t and scaling down 
21:50:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> * never got to the 50t 8b numbers - i started with emission and finished with 1.3b prople at 11m/yr growth 
21:51:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> Alex | LocalMonero | AgoraDesk:  were 100% in agreement 
21:52:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> My point was that, btc not having a block reward doesnt account for population/adoption at all
21:52:13 <Morpheus[m]> <Capybara[m]> "using http://trocador.app/" <- We dont charge any fee above exchange prices. Each exchange share some of their commission with us, but that's it.
21:52:29 <Morpheus[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "Trocador.i2p as well if you want..." <- This
21:52:41 <Capybara[m]> Morpheus[m]: "we" ?
21:52:49 <Capybara[m]> are you the admin?
21:53:06 <Alex|LocalMonero> Capybara[m]: You're talking to the big boss at trocador
21:53:26 <Capybara[m]> Alex|LocalMonero: Oh shit
21:53:42 <Morpheus[m]> Capybara[m]: Yes hahah
21:53:55 <Morpheus[m]> Alex|LocalMonero: Thanks Alex xD
21:54:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> Morpheus actually works for me, but i dont do public relations /s
21:55:14 <Morpheus[m]> Hahahah I work for everyone in the community. Every single user is our boss
21:55:56 <Morpheus[m]> But yeah ofrnxmr is such a pain in the ass that we obey whatever he says
21:56:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> see? He didnt deny it ✅
22:28:52 <Capybara[m]> What are some tips to prevent boating accidents?
22:29:37 <Capybara[m]> I don't want to lose my monero in a boating accident
22:29:42 <Capybara[m]> xD
22:34:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> write your seed in permanant marker on your fridge at gone and work 
22:34:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> disclaomer: you wont have a boating accident, but might just have your whole boat stolen
22:39:00 <Capybara[m]> How about keyloggers?
22:39:09 <Capybara[m]> on phones
22:39:54 <Capybara[m]> or not?
23:26:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> Mysu wallet update is out @ Mysu.dev
23:54:40 <CidadodoMonerist> https://t.me/Moneristas/192
23:54:45 <CidadodoMonerist> Guys
23:54:51 <CidadodoMonerist> Check this out