06:38:22 <DanIsnotthemanBr> free xmr? inflation inbound!!
07:18:55 <mlcboss[m]> is it to stupid to buy paypal credits , bitcoin and other traceable payment provider with monero?
07:18:55 <mlcboss[m]> i only use monero for privacy bridge
08:09:31 <Alex|LocalMonero> monerobull: again with fireship eh
08:09:34 <Alex|LocalMonero> Very nice
08:09:35 <Alex|LocalMonero> lovei t
08:51:44 <DanIsnotthemanBr> monero condom*
12:22:34 <kico> !faucet
12:22:48 <kico> !balance
14:34:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monerujo 
16:00:11 <RavFX[m]> <nuxdor[m]> "Hi, I'm new to Monero. I..." <- You have two syncing bars as I remember, one for the daemon and one for the wallet?
16:00:11 <RavFX[m]> Which one is syncing?
16:00:11 <RavFX[m]> And where is it at?
16:25:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> How did you "import the blockchain"
16:26:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its faster to just sync from scratch
16:27:37 <ofrnxmr[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: i know "instructions from getmonero" - im asking, "did you stop monerod, complete all steps, place the resulting data.mdb file in the correft location, then restart monerod?"
16:28:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> And considering youre 1. using gui and 2. using windows, im inclined to say "please just use things how they are designed out of the box"
16:30:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> (just delete the blockchain.raw and whatever you did with it, and let gui sync on its own)
16:31:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its not even recommendd to import 
16:31:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> 1. Its not faster
16:31:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> 2. Its not trusted.
16:32:06 <bike[m]> i agree with ofrn on the out of the box part
16:33:15 <ax[m]> why monero was $517.62 2 years ago?
16:33:31 <ax[m]> What happened that day?
16:33:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> covid pump
16:33:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> Wasnt the whole market at ath or near 
16:33:59 <ax[m]> for covid?
16:34:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monero Markets 
16:34:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> Market talk ^
16:34:35 <minth> the fed printed buttloads of money and gave it to companies and individuals
16:34:47 <minth> covid was the excuse
16:35:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> Then rugges everyone 
16:35:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> And took out money to war 
16:35:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> Our*
16:35:26 <ax[m]> minth: 😶‍🌫️
16:36:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> Market lost like 30% in like seconds 
16:36:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> My memory may be fuzzy or exaggerating, but i was watching live as the market pushed up for 5 mins, then went into a freefall in the blink an eye 
16:37:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> And everytime you thiugh "it cant lost another 30%" it woukd 
16:37:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> What is "importing" to you?
16:38:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> Downloading and copy paste isnt importong 
16:38:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> You need to use the raw file to create a blockchain database 
16:38:30 <ax[m]> this CBDC stuff is good for monero
16:38:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> Which will take 13+ days 
16:38:55 <ax[m]> https://www.crypto-news-flash.com/monero-and-dash-competitor-zcash-restructures-to-lead-privacy-coin-race-battling-cbdcs-and-governments-worldwide
16:39:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> Are you using an ssd or an hdd?
16:39:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> ax[m]: Restructures? We restructured too!
16:40:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> Signed - former vp ofrnxmr, current coo
16:40:03 <ax[m]> monero to the MOOOOOON
16:43:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> The blockchain database 
16:44:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> You need to verify the blockchain after downloading it
16:44:37 <ofrnxmr[m]> Takes 13+days (same amount of time or longer)
16:44:44 <ax[m]> nuxdor[m]: That's why I don't run a full node
16:45:34 <ax[m]> ax[m]: sorry guys I have a HDD
16:45:40 <ax[m]> s/a/an/
16:45:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> nuxdor[m]: Yes
16:46:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: the data.mdb is not publically available 
16:46:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> Anyone COULD share theirs, but you SHOULD only trust your own
16:46:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> monero-blockchain-import --input-file C:\YOUR\BLOCKCHAIN\FILE\PATH\HERE
16:47:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> This step here converts the raw file to the mdb, and takes weeks in your case
16:47:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> Tldr: just sync the node. Stop pulling your hair out
16:48:11 <ax[m]> why a lot of people don't like cake wallet?
16:48:19 <ax[m]> s/a/alot/, s/lot//
16:48:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> nuxdor[m]: Thats why it takes 13 days
16:48:43 <ax[m]> s/why/Why/
16:48:55 <ax[m]> ax[m]: what is the problem?
16:49:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> ax[m]: Says who? Haters hate. Cake is the _most_ popular wallet, ragardless of what people want to say
16:49:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its also the only full featured monero wallet that supports ios and android, and is up to date 
16:50:05 <bike[m]> ax[m]: put 100k worth of monero on a cake wallet once and my little cousin ended up eating it.
16:50:18 <bike[m]> as a rule of thumb i avoid food-based wallets now.
16:50:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> i put 100k on ledger and then setup the new recovery 
16:50:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> based
16:51:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> People dont like "cake labs" because they are successful
16:51:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> And successful people are scary, i guess 
16:52:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> yeah. Toss windows out lolol
16:52:37 <endogenic> successful lol
16:53:11 <endogenic> so are bitcoiners i guess
16:54:28 <bike[m]> yeah unless for some reason you specifically need a non-virtualized windows operating system i would just get rid of it
16:54:43 <bike[m]> assuming your computer is capable it should be able to run a windows operating system in a vm if you need it
16:55:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> External ssd >>>>> isntall linux on it
16:55:26 <bike[m]> + running windows is kinda like the antithesis to the type of privacy that monero is meant to support
16:56:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> You dont run windows, windows runs you
16:56:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> All sorts of built in telemetry too
16:56:44 <bike[m]> it's like sneaking out of the house without your wife knowing to go get a hooker, and then you pay the hooker through a shared bank account you both have access to.
16:57:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> and your wife followed you
16:57:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> And slashed your tires 
16:57:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> Protected you from the hooker 
16:57:23 <bike[m]> nuxdor[m]: how long ago did you try linux?
16:57:28 <bike[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: "protected"
16:57:52 <ofrnxmr[m]>  Also protects you from your friends and family 
16:58:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> Abusive domestic relationship = windows 
16:58:23 <RavFX[m]> bike[m]: But Windows is the same
16:58:23 <RavFX[m]> you use command line to install everything (aka: package manager)
16:58:23 <RavFX[m]> Except if you still live in 1996 and still download and install everything manually
16:58:26 <bike[m]> as a beginner i'd recommend Linux Mint, if you can use Windows you can use Mint, the only issue is actually putting it on your computer and assuming that you have an empty usb you can use that's not a problem.
16:59:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> Synaptic package manager was SO much easier than googling for shady downloads 
16:59:15 <bike[m]> if anything getting windows is harder, you know how much fucking time i've spent trying to burn windows 8 on to a usb with only access to a linux desktop?
16:59:37 <ofrnxmr[m]> Now linux distros have graphical "app stores", for apt, flatpaks, snaps
16:59:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> out of the box ease-of-use of linux is imo FAR easier than windows
17:00:20 <RavFX[m]> I don't know why there still people using Windows without Chocolatey or Winget..
17:00:20 <RavFX[m]> I mean, who like to never update there software except these that come with an integrated auto updated.
17:00:20 <RavFX[m]> Use tha package manager so you can update everything on you're windows by typing "choco update all"
17:01:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> bike[m]: The _only_ reason i dont recommend mint to beginner beginners, is because up the upgrade process and potential weirdness with cinnamon or mate 
17:01:14 <RavFX[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: It's about the same now considering you can use a package manager and so have the same level of always updated software by typing one line.
17:01:14 <RavFX[m]> I would say that at that point it all depend of the hardware and drivers support for you're hardware
17:01:36 <bike[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: the updates are straightforward for the most part but you have to do them manually so remember to do so
17:01:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> The upgrade process is ultimately where i had to draw the line for "grandma"
17:01:58 <bike[m]> are you talking about like
17:02:04 <bike[m]> upgrading repos?
17:02:09 <bike[m]> or updating the computer
17:02:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> nono, i mean upgrading major versions 
17:02:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> Of mint
17:02:38 <jeffro256[m]> bike[m]: Pretty sure you can set it to run updates before each restart
17:02:45 <bike[m]> ohh yeah i see what you mean.
17:02:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its not as simpke as "yes, next next next wait restart"
17:03:07 <RavFX[m]> * it's just like two command to remember to update ubuntu
17:03:07 <RavFX[m]> * one commande to remember to update all application on Windows (if you did not do the mistake of downloading everything manually)
17:03:07 <RavFX[m]> As long as you are not using Gentoo you should be fine.
17:03:07 <RavFX[m]> Arch can be a .... But for that, there is Artix
17:03:29 <bike[m]> RavFX[m]: > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> * it's just like two command to remember to update ubuntu
17:03:29 <bike[m]> > * one commande to remember to update all application on Windows (if you did not do the mistake of downloading everything manually)
17:03:29 <bike[m]> > As long as you are not using Gentoo you should be fine.
17:03:29 <bike[m]> ...(truncated)
17:03:40 <bike[m]> i felt like i got put in hell when i tried to get mullvad to compile on artix
17:03:53 <RavFX[m]> bike[m]: yeah, true.
17:03:53 <RavFX[m]> It's like easy_arch. At the end you can still get issue
17:04:07 <RavFX[m]> But AUR is so great
17:04:15 <jeffro256[m]> nuxdor[m]: Idk about other distros, but this is basically how it works in Ubuntu. You can just double click on things in the file manager / desktop  to open them or search it like in Window then double click
17:04:27 <bike[m]> nuxdor[m]: linux doesn't have compatibility for .exe files most of the time but installs for most apps are pretty easy assuming the app has linux support.
17:04:35 <RavFX[m]> using "paru" to replace pacman, it's like pacman, same syntax but with AUR support
17:04:48 <bike[m]> most of the time you'll get an app image that's just about ready to use out of the box iirc
17:04:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> bike[m]: But does have appimages 
17:05:05 <RavFX[m]> bike[m]: Wine run a lot of stuff but there are canevas and issue depending of the app
17:05:33 <bike[m]> RavFX[m]: yeah but you still have to figure out how to use wine and make certain apps compatible, not as "out of the box" all the time
17:05:36 <RavFX[m]> But yeah, WSL2 run all Linux app now, I think.
17:05:36 <RavFX[m]> You can get decent Docker stack running on WSL2 on Windows
17:05:37 <bike[m]> e.g. photoshop
17:05:40 <jeffro256[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Very handy, but I hate that extension name 
17:05:50 <jeffro256[m]> .AppImage isn't as snappy as .exe 
17:06:17 <jeffro256[m]> Nothing stopping you from renaming tho lol
17:06:20 <bike[m]> RavFX[m]: > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> But yeah, WSL2 run all Linux app now, I think.
17:06:20 <bike[m]> > You can get decent Docker stack running on WSL2 on Windows
17:06:20 <bike[m]> still has the same issues that we've been speaking on that windows has though, windows can still see everything you do in there and can fuck you with updates you didn't ask for
17:06:50 <RavFX[m]> bike[m]: As Linux. Not because it's opensource that it does not contain backdoor. Assume all OS are spying on you.
17:06:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> monero gui's appimage is the best - its just a script for ./monero-wallet-gui  haha
17:08:09 <bike[m]> RavFX[m]: yeah but since Linux distros are open they can be audited and you can SEE what's going on inside of them.
17:08:27 <bike[m]> whereas windows is a black box that you don't really get to understand, anything could be happening under the hood and you wouldn't know.
17:08:29 <RavFX[m]> Many backdoor tentative got caught on Linux (3 as I remember for the kernel itself).
17:08:30 <RavFX[m]> Question is : how many successful backdoor implementation. I remember one that was giving root for using a specific function I don't remember the name, but the error on that function had a missing = in a if... if (UID = 0).... Giving root to everyone who ask, feature was in Linux kernel for 10 years...
17:08:43 <jeffro256[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Reminds me of my days when I was writing apps for MacOS. Since I didn't really know how to package it correctly, my application bundle was just a raw executable file and a Plist file that ran `./app`
17:09:15 <bike[m]> RavFX[m]: > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> Many backdoor tentative got caught on Linux (3 as I remember for the kernel itself).
17:09:15 <bike[m]> > Question is : how many successful backdoor implementation. I remember one that was giving root for using a specific function I don't remember the name, but the error on that function had a missing = in a if... if (UID = 0).... Giving root to everyone who ask, feature was in Linux kernel for 10 years...
17:09:15 <bike[m]> send article
17:09:30 <RavFX[m]> been a while, relocating....
17:11:03 <RavFX[m]> https://lwn.net/Articles/57143/
17:11:08 <RavFX[m]> that one was caught, I think
17:11:19 <RavFX[m]> still looking for the one that lasted ~10 years
17:13:20 <RavFX[m]> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/nsa-linked-bvp47-linux-backdoor-widely-undetected-for-10-years/
17:13:39 <bike[m]> i do agree with what you're saying about backdoors on a level but i feel like it's still 100x more secure than whatever you could be doing with windows
17:13:55 <RavFX[m]> Just give a BTC to some underpaid linux kernel dev to implement a backdoor
17:13:57 <RavFX[m]> easy
17:14:06 <RavFX[m]> more easy than Windows imo
17:14:20 <RavFX[m]> But for windows they can use other channel / giving heap of money to crosoft maybe
17:14:57 <bike[m]> i'd bet money that they've been in agreement with ms since FOREVER in regards to backdoors
17:15:36 <bike[m]> fbi will spend 900k to develop a backdoor for something that's not of much use to them, they'd definitely shoot microsoft some money to backdoor into their operating systems.
17:15:38 <RavFX[m]> You just have to assume that you're OS is compromised, by default, whatever the OS is.
17:16:13 <bike[m]> if your OS is compromised then you might as well just not even do anything in that scenario.
17:17:05 <RavFX[m]> And nowadays, default install on Linux is often less secure than default install of windows. (I don't talk about backdoor here, just general security of the various default services)
17:17:27 <RavFX[m]> And of course it's variable, depending of the distribution
17:18:58 <RavFX[m]> Default install of Windows now have also that thing that run every application in there isolated memory space (using hyper-v)
17:19:27 <RavFX[m]> No Linux default install have that level is isolation afaik (except maybe Qubes OS)
17:21:26 <idkrn[m]> RavFX[m]: Qubes is not Linux :) but Android and ChromeOS are
17:21:45 <RavFX[m]> idkrn[m]: Qubes is Linux running on top of XEN
17:22:31 <idkrn[m]> RavFX[m]: "Is Qubes just another Linux distribution?"
17:22:31 <idkrn[m]>  https://www.qubes-os.org/faq/#:~:text=Is%20Qubes%20just%20another%20Linux%20distribution%3F
17:24:38 <idkrn[m]> <bike[m]> "i'd bet money that they've..." <- L take
17:25:00 <idkrn[m]> <RavFX[m]> "You just have to assume that you..." <- No basis for this
17:29:02 <bike[m]> idkrn spawning in for the sole purpose of contradicting everybodies points.
17:29:38 <idkrn[m]> bike[m]: Correcting*
17:30:46 <bike[m]> idkrn spawning in for the sole purpose of contradicting everybodies wording
17:30:58 <RavFX[m]> I did not spawn to contradict everyone point 😂 Just mentioning facts
17:30:58 <RavFX[m]> And yes, Qubes is Linux... 6.2.10-1, if you run the last stable version
17:31:37 <idkrn[m]> <idkrn[m]> ""Is Qubes just another Linux..." <- > <@idkrn:envs.net> "Is Qubes just another Linux distribution?"
17:31:37 <idkrn[m]> >  https://www.qubes-os.org/faq/#:~:text=Is%20Qubes%20just%20another%20Linux%20distribution%3F
17:31:37 <idkrn[m]> ^ Qubes devs disagree
17:31:44 <ax[m]> Hey I'm looking for an article about why monero and why monero is better than us dollar for a presentation
17:31:50 <RavFX[m]> uname don't disagree 😂
17:31:54 <idkrn[m]> bike[m]: That doesn't make sense
17:32:00 <bike[m]> RavFX[m]: > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> I did not spawn to contradict everyone point 😂 Just mentioning facts
17:32:00 <bike[m]> > And yes, Qubes is Linux... 6.2.10-1, if you run the last stable version
17:32:00 <bike[m]> idkrn quick reply to this message and explain how he's wrong because i mentioned you in the message and not RavFX
17:32:19 <ax[m]> ax[m]: anyone can help?
17:32:20 <idkrn[m]> bike[m]: I linked what Qubes says
17:33:03 <bike[m]> ax[m]: a specific article might be difficult to come across, Monero isn't super mainstream and thus doesn't get many news articles about it
17:33:23 <ax[m]> bike[m]: 🥲
17:33:59 <cockliuser[m]> <idkrn[m]> ""Is Qubes just another Linux..." <- > <@idkrn:envs.net> "Is Qubes just another Linux distribution?"
17:33:59 <cockliuser[m]> >  https://www.qubes-os.org/faq/#:~:text=Is%20Qubes%20just%20another%20Linux%20distribution%3F
17:33:59 <cockliuser[m]> People working in security have a really elitist mindset for some reason 
17:34:23 <cockliuser[m]> Especially hardened operating systems 
17:34:33 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: What are you taking about
17:35:11 <RavFX[m]> XEN is just the hypervisor, the DOM0 is still Linux.
17:35:11 <RavFX[m]> If someone can exploit a bug in XEN to reach that dom0 and exploit it using another Linux bug/exploit. That he will own you're system.
17:35:48 <idkrn[m]> If they exploit DOM0 you automatically lose
17:36:46 <cockliuser[m]> idkrn[m]: Specifically GOS/Kicksecure/Whonix people
17:36:47 <cockliuser[m]> Daniel Micay is a prime example of this mindset
17:37:05 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: How is this relevant
17:37:07 <cockliuser[m]> They like to dump on Linux security all the time despite primarily working with Linux
17:37:21 <cockliuser[m]> So obviously they'll claim that it isn't a Linux distribution 
17:37:28 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: That's why they do it…
17:37:40 <idkrn[m]> Because they see all it's failures
17:37:42 <cockliuser[m]> I've seen people from that circle unironically recommend windows as an alternative 
17:37:56 <cockliuser[m]> "Just disable the telemetry in group policy "
17:37:56 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: Only enterprise
17:37:58 <cockliuser[m]> Like wtf
17:38:41 <RavFX[m]> cockliuser[m]: Yeah, disable telemetry.
17:38:41 <RavFX[m]> If you don't want to deal with security and use all default stuff like granma, Windows is the best bet
17:39:08 <idkrn[m]> RavFX[m]: > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> Yeah, disable telemetry.
17:39:08 <idkrn[m]> > If you don't want to deal with security and use all default stuff like granma, Windows is the best bet
17:39:08 <idkrn[m]> You can make windows somewhat secure
17:39:14 <cockliuser[m]> Disabling telemetry doesn't ensure that Wangbloes isn't phoning home all the time
17:39:25 <idkrn[m]> Hyperv and stuff
17:39:32 <cockliuser[m]> Also there's a really stupid github blogger who's basically the final form of the narcissistic security worker
17:39:35 <cockliuser[m]> Madaidans or something 
17:39:37 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: You can check it
17:39:59 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: How are they narcissistic
17:40:55 <cockliuser[m]> idkrn[m]: Windows has many ways to phone home, if they really wanted to, and they won't make it obvious enough for you to check it
17:40:58 <idkrn[m]> This is also completely unrelated to Qubes or anything
17:40:59 <cockliuser[m]> Murphy's Law
17:41:12 <cockliuser[m]> idkrn[m]: Madaidans? 
17:41:24 <cockliuser[m]> You haven't had an interaction with him I see
17:41:42 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: You don't understand how many researchers scrutinize Windows
17:41:43 <RavFX[m]> btw, telemetry is just how microsoft work for development.
17:41:43 <RavFX[m]> They use to have a lab with over a thousand PC running the latest build of Windows to test and find the bugs.
17:41:43 <RavFX[m]> They don't do that anymore.
17:41:43 <RavFX[m]> ...(truncated)
17:41:50 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: I've had plenty
17:43:03 <RavFX[m]> Only problem with telemetry, is that it only return partial dump
17:43:03 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: Ofc you don't
17:43:03 <cockliuser[m]> idkrn[m]: I don't care about experts or researchers
17:43:03 <RavFX[m]> with annoy the hell of some windows developper because it's sometime not enough to find the issue
17:43:04 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: Yeah like Linux
17:43:04 <cockliuser[m]> cockliuser[m]: If I cant audit it myself it's useless to me
17:43:06 <idkrn[m]> RavFX[m]: > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> btw, telemetry is just how microsoft work for development.
17:43:06 <idkrn[m]> > 
17:43:07 <idkrn[m]> > They use to have a lab with over a thousand PC running the latest build of Windows to test and find the bugs.
17:43:07 <idkrn[m]> ...(truncated)
17:43:15 <idkrn[m]> You definitely audit that yourself
17:43:23 <RavFX[m]> cockliuser[m]: The question is : did you actually audit the code?
17:43:24 <idkrn[m]> Or your CPU architecture
17:43:37 <idkrn[m]> RavFX[m]: Definitely not
17:44:04 <cockliuser[m]> RavFX[m]: I can audit if I want vs Windows, which is already a big guarantee of security 
17:44:10 <idkrn[m]> They didn't find shellshock heartbleed dirtycow or dirtypipe
17:44:17 <cockliuser[m]> Who knows what Windows does under the hood 
17:44:31 <RavFX[m]> cockliuser[m]: Yeah but still, you did not audit it.
17:44:42 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: It isn't when the primary way of bug testing is through fuzzing
17:44:58 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: Researchers
17:45:24 <cockliuser[m]> idkrn[m]: Tell the researchers to release the source code under GPL :)
17:45:36 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: You don't need the source
17:46:01 <idkrn[m]> You don't understand what fuzzing is or anything
17:46:15 <cockliuser[m]> idkrn[m]: Ah yes let me just interpret and audit 4GB of binaries 
17:46:17 <cockliuser[m]> Very cool plan
17:46:36 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: Ok try 30 million lines of source code
17:47:06 <idkrn[m]> That's just the kernel btw
17:47:43 <cockliuser[m]> idkrn[m]: 30M SLOC isn't being compiled into your kernel unless you have a monolithic computer with 200 input devices 
17:47:53 <cockliuser[m]> 20M is probably graphics drivers lmao
17:48:05 <cockliuser[m]> Considering how big graphics firmware is mowa 
17:48:13 <cockliuser[m]> s/mowa/nowadays/
17:48:21 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: Do 1 million lines lol
17:48:24 <idkrn[m]> I'm waiting
17:48:25 <RavFX[m]> Graphic drive is quite small on avarage on Linux. Because all the stuff is segmented.
17:48:42 <idkrn[m]> Then we can move onto userspacs
17:48:46 <RavFX[m]> The Mesa part of "the driver" probably bigger than the kernel lol
17:49:02 <cockliuser[m]> True 
17:49:08 <idkrn[m]> RavFX[m]: Wait till he tries to audit his browser
17:49:17 <cockliuser[m]> Kernel compilation always chokes on graphics doe
17:49:32 <cockliuser[m]> idkrn[m]: It's open source, so I can if I want to
17:49:37 <cockliuser[m]> Webkit one
17:49:47 <cockliuser[m]> * It's a webkit browser
17:50:01 <cockliuser[m]> Plus no opengl crap compiled into it
17:50:05 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: You haven't even audited 20 lines from your kernel
17:50:13 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: 0 security lol
17:50:16 <cockliuser[m]> idkrn[m]: Nice assumption 
17:51:09 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: Ok so what did you find during your audits
17:51:10 <cockliuser[m]> idkrn[m]: JS is disabled so 🤷‍♂️ 
17:51:10 <cockliuser[m]> If there's a bug in the HTML interpreter then I'm fucked but that's pretty improbable
17:51:23 <cockliuser[m]> idkrn[m]: I didn't find telemetry :)
17:51:25 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: > <@cockliuser:matrix.org> JS is disabled so 🤷‍♂️ 
17:51:25 <idkrn[m]> > If there's a bug in the HTML interpreter then I'm fucked but that's pretty improbable
17:51:25 <idkrn[m]> Audio? Video?
17:51:34 <RavFX[m]> Just use Qubes OS
17:51:38 <idkrn[m]> Any rendering?
17:51:45 <RavFX[m]> it fix the issue with browser, they get there own VM
17:52:08 <idkrn[m]> RavFX[m]: You can do that on any OS lol
17:52:20 <idkrn[m]> Chromium has a good sandbox as well
17:52:36 <RavFX[m]> idkrn[m]: Yeah, but Qubes OS force you to and so can't be lazy
17:52:37 <Alex|LocalMonero> <cockliuser[m]> "> <@idkrn:envs.net> "Is Qubes..." <- The reason is probably that they tend to be very non-neurotypical.
17:53:04 <idkrn[m]> RavFX[m]: I just use a good sandbox most of the time :)
17:53:27 <cockliuser[m]> yeah Daniel had a disorder iirc
17:53:37 <Alex|LocalMonero> Alex|LocalMonero: It really helps to be quite non-neurotypical to be exceptional at security. Thinking like a computer is not natural to people.
17:53:46 <RavFX[m]> https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2023-2136
17:53:53 <RavFX[m]> Integer overflow in Skia in Google Chrome prior to 112.0.5615.137 allowed a remote attacker who had compromised the renderer process to potentially perform a sandbox escape via a crafted HTML page.
17:54:37 <idkrn[m]> RavFX[m]: At least they needed a sandbox escape lol
17:57:53 <idkrn[m]> FYI I primarily use open source software
17:58:27 <idkrn[m]> I'm just not afraid of proprietary software for no reason
17:58:55 <RavFX[m]> idkrn[m]: Same
17:59:47 <RavFX[m]> 3 letters agency have tons of exploits for all OS, deal with it.
17:59:47 <RavFX[m]> So just use the operating system you are the most proficient with.
17:59:52 <cockliuser[m]> idkrn[m]: It's not being "afraid", proprietary software is just immoral and unethical.
18:00:02 <cockliuser[m]> Like what are you hiding
18:00:05 <idkrn[m]> RavFX[m]: > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> 3 letters agency have tons of exploits for all OS, deal with it.
18:00:05 <idkrn[m]> > So just use the operating system you are the most proficient with.
18:00:05 <idkrn[m]> Exactly. They don't need backdoors
18:00:26 <RavFX[m]> Visual Studio (not visual studio code) torch every single opensource IDE.
18:00:26 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: How
18:00:57 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: I don't understand it either, but I don't see it as unethical
18:01:16 <cockliuser[m]> idkrn[m]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.en.html
18:01:25 <RavFX[m]> Sometime people like to be paid for work
18:01:30 <cockliuser[m]> Unethical because it's an extension of IP rights
18:01:39 <cockliuser[m]> RavFX[m]: FOSS can be paid too
18:01:44 <cockliuser[m]> Redhat for example 
18:01:47 <idkrn[m]> RavFX[m]: Free proprietary software is confusing
18:01:57 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: Owned by IBM?
18:01:59 <RavFX[m]> If they are well paid by big CO, less change that that dev will accept a btc to forget an = somewhere
18:02:22 <cockliuser[m]> idkrn[m]: yes, but it's an example of Foss being monetized
18:02:36 <cockliuser[m]> Lot's of companies fund foss development because they use the software in their systems
18:02:44 <cockliuser[m]> s/Lot's/Lots/
18:02:52 <idkrn[m]> cockliuser[m]: If I just give you a binary with no license, you'd find that unethical?
18:02:53 <cockliuser[m]> * Lots of companies fund foss development too because they use the software in their systems
18:03:15 <cockliuser[m]> yes, if you didn't provide the source code for it for reproduction 
18:03:29 <idkrn[m]> That's a confusing position
18:03:29 <cockliuser[m]> s/for/to/
18:04:36 <RavFX[m]> Some proprietary code is so because they have NDA.
18:04:36 <RavFX[m]> example : Ledger secure element prevent Ledger to release the complete code. They can't, by law
18:05:17 <RavFX[m]> Same reason why AMD won't release the GPU firmware blob code. Plenty of IP including some that AMD don't own
18:05:18 <idkrn[m]> Wait what
18:05:22 <apotheon> It's not unethical to provide a binary with no license in a world without copyright.
18:05:23 <cockliuser[m]> RavFX[m]: > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> Some proprietary code is so because they have NDA.
18:05:23 <cockliuser[m]> > example : Ledger secure element prevent Ledger to release the complete code. They can't, by law
18:05:23 <cockliuser[m]> Yeah, it's an unfortunate situation for Ledger 
18:06:01 <idkrn[m]> apotheon: A law I have no control over makes my behavior unethical?
18:06:05 <cockliuser[m]> cockliuser[m]: I think Foundation passport's secure chip is open source iirc
18:06:30 <apotheon> idkrn[m]: . . . maybe?
18:06:38 <idkrn[m]> Nvm I misread
18:06:49 <idkrn[m]> No I didn't
18:06:58 <idkrn[m]> Too many double negatives
18:07:54 <apotheon> cue voice-over: "In a world . . . without copyright . . ."
18:08:02 <bike[m]> apotheon: copyright is functionally just paper and thoughts that are enforced by the U.S. government, if you aren't concerned about the us government enforcing copyright upon you it might as well not even exist to you
18:08:19 <apotheon> until someone sues you
18:08:52 <RavFX[m]> Just breach the copyright in a non aligned country
18:09:00 <RavFX[m]> or one with opposed polarity
18:09:08 <apotheon> or via download over Tor
18:09:45 <cockliuser[m]> RavFX[m]: Aren't nearly all countries bound to copyright laws due to some international digital rights agreement
18:09:46 <apotheon> The ethicality has more to do with your intentions as the distributor.
18:10:28 <RavFX[m]> cockliuser[m]: many don't enforce a thing
18:10:28 <RavFX[m]> and many don't care (say if you are in india and violate some US copyright... who care)
18:10:31 <apotheon> cockliuser[m]: Berne Convention
18:10:42 <apotheon> depends on which jurisdiction
18:10:52 <bike[m]> cockliuser[m]: on paper maybe
18:10:52 <bike[m]> in practice international law enforcement is very shaky when countries aren't well allied
18:11:01 <RavFX[m]> technically it's safer (specially in the US), to download from Usenet than using torrent
18:11:19 <RavFX[m]> at lease you are not uploading anything while you are violating some copyrighted consumable
18:11:33 <apotheon> RavFX[m]: I said Tor, not BitTorrent.
18:11:56 <cockliuser[m]> RavFX[m]: > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> many don't enforce a thing
18:11:56 <cockliuser[m]> > and many don't care (say if you are in india and violate some US copyright... who care)
18:11:56 <cockliuser[m]> I've been to India lol, they raid shops for copyright infringement, and once you get arrested ur basically fucked 
18:12:12 <RavFX[m]> apotheon: oh, yeah, that also work lol.
18:12:12 <RavFX[m]> just a little slower than usened. wait for these nice 4K 70GB movies
18:12:20 <RavFX[m]> s/usened/usenet/
18:12:41 <cockliuser[m]> It might be harder to arrest people on an individual level though because of the huge population though for sure 
18:12:48 <RavFX[m]> cockliuser[m]: american copyright?
18:12:54 <apotheon> In India, you're probably more likely to get raided if you aren't Hindu.
18:12:59 <cockliuser[m]> Yes
18:13:04 <cockliuser[m]> American copyright 
18:13:14 <RavFX[m]> hmm, Then Russia better
18:13:29 <RavFX[m]> or anything in Latam because they barely enforce a thing except maybe in brazil
18:13:33 <cockliuser[m]> apotheon: religious discrimination isn't that big in india despite what the western medias report
18:13:45 <apotheon> I'm getting my information from people in India.
18:13:49 <cockliuser[m]> As far as my experience goes
18:13:50 <bike[m]> in brazil normally you get your head enforced off of your body with blunt long blades
18:14:06 <apotheon> I don't read US news so much.
18:14:06 <cockliuser[m]> Me too
18:14:32 <apotheon> I don't think I've even seen anything in mainstream US news about religious discrimination in India.
18:14:47 <apotheon> bike[m]: lovely
18:15:14 <cockliuser[m]> I think nyt and vice did some reports on it
18:15:15 <cockliuser[m]> I've talked to people from India of both religions and the discrimination thing is really overblown according to them
18:15:36 <cockliuser[m]> Might vary based on region though if
18:15:39 <cockliuser[m]> *ig
18:15:50 <RavFX[m]> They have some clash between there different religions from what I understand
18:15:54 <apotheon> I avoid Vice except when I want to comment on how wrong some "journalist" can get.  It's a trash-fire of a news outlet.
18:16:06 <apotheon> "both religions"
18:16:10 <RavFX[m]> Religion is politic, kinda, same issue at the end lol
18:16:11 <apotheon> Both?
18:16:26 <cockliuser[m]> apotheon: Both mainstream religions lol 
18:16:34 <cockliuser[m]> Read between the lines now cmon
18:16:48 <apotheon> Which two do you consider mainstream there?  Is it Hindu and Muslim, or Hindu and Christian, or what?
18:17:13 <bike[m]> hindu and telemarketer
18:17:14 <cockliuser[m]> Population wise Hinduism and Islam are the mainstream ones there
18:17:19 <apotheon> bike[m]: har
18:17:23 <apotheon> okay
18:17:31 <cockliuser[m]> Vice used to be good though in the past, shame what it turned into now
18:17:32 <apotheon> It depends on what you're measuring.
18:17:56 <bike[m]> cockliuser[m]: doesn't islam have it's own internal religious beef though
18:18:05 <bike[m]> crips vs bl- i means sunni vs shia
18:18:09 <apotheon> Yes, there are probably far more Muslim people than Christians, but Christians could arguably be "more mainstream" by a different measure (e.g. tolerance of the religion)
18:18:12 <apotheon> .
18:18:13 <bike[m]> s/i means//
18:18:43 <cockliuser[m]> apotheon: I don't know what you're getting at
18:18:49 <cockliuser[m]> Overton window?
18:19:33 <bike[m]> i'd argue that when it comes to actual population it's difficult to declare anything to be more mainstream than that as a metric
18:20:44 <cockliuser[m]> bike[m]: yeah, majority in india are Sunnis iirc
18:20:45 <cockliuser[m]> Shias are 10% or something 
18:21:21 <bike[m]> so basically not even a factor on account of population size alone
18:22:30 <cockliuser[m]> Oh crap we're getting really offtopic now
18:22:43 <cockliuser[m]> I forgot this was Monero not Monero Offtopic 
18:22:46 <cockliuser[m]> Sorry
18:24:02 <bike[m]> wait this isn't #muslim-topic:sunni.social ?
18:42:59 <apotheon> cockliuser[m]: Yeah, Overton window is one way to (ahem) frame it.
18:44:49 <apotheon> to make this on-topic: Getting a bunch of people in India into Monero seems like a great way to kick-start some social change!
18:45:09 <apotheon> particularly socioeconomic
18:46:29 <cockliuser[m]> There's a 30% tax on any profits (?) from crypto
18:46:38 <cockliuser[m]> I don't know if that applies to buying goods
18:51:49 <apotheon> cockliuser[m]: In India?
18:52:10 <cockliuser[m]> yep
18:52:25 <apotheon> That's part of the reason it would kickstart some socioeconomic change.
18:52:44 <apotheon> . . . because it would heavily undermine that horrifically bad tax.
18:53:06 <cockliuser[m]> Government printing press didn't generate enough money so they needed to dig more into people's pockets lol
18:53:14 <apotheon> yep
18:53:18 <apotheon> what a shitshow
18:54:01 <apotheon> seems familiar, here in the US
20:16:16 <bike[m]> I heard some people on Reddit talking about triggering “taxable events” by transferring and buying crypto and I was shocked
20:16:31 <bike[m]> Imagine using exchanges for your crypto and getting taxed through it
20:16:32 <bike[m]> Not us.
21:13:26 <susman1[m]> a lot of people (left leaning subreddits mainly but many critics in general) say that all crypto is bad (especially POW coins like monero) due to its environmental effect- what is the response
21:14:07 <merope> [citation needed]
21:15:03 <susman1[m]> https://yewtu.be/watch?v=u-sNSjS8cq0
21:17:03 <cockliuser[m]> susman1: tell the critics about the power consumption of the wars needed to uphold fiat's power
21:20:25 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Umm how do they print cash, thats not esg compliant 
21:20:44 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Or the machine that banks use
21:20:49 <DanIsnotthemanBr> s/machine/machines/
21:25:33 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort***> > a lot of people (left leaning subreddits mainly but many critics in general) say that all crypto is bad (especially POW coins like monero) due to its environmental effect- what is the response
21:25:33 <bridgerton[m]> I remember seeing this https://youtu.be/H2did0TmZdk and the OG lenghty version https://youtu.be/yH2t4ayYGDI
21:26:02 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort***> They go into detail regarding all major anti-crypto arguments, not just NFTs
21:26:03 <apotheon> bridgerton[m]: USD is far worse for the environment.
21:26:17 <apotheon> Monero is not nearly as much of a power consumer as BTC.
21:26:22 <apotheon> Leave us alone.
21:26:28 <apotheon> That's basically my response.
21:26:43 <apotheon> Sometimes I explain in more detail.  Sometimes I just don't want to "hear" it.
21:27:15 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort***> also as the videos mention most of the brought up numbers about environmental impact are outright fabrications, yet regurgitated because of ideological reasons
21:27:34 <apotheon> yep
21:28:05 <apotheon> the levels of dishonesty:
21:28:06 <apotheon> 1. lies
21:28:09 <apotheon> 2. damned lies
21:28:14 <apotheon> 3. statistics
21:28:17 <apotheon> 4. statist ticks
21:28:36 <apotheon> - apotheon, circa 2012
21:29:00 <apotheon> I'm guessing at the year.  I don't remember with any certainty.
21:29:29 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort***> essentially most of those arguments refer to a paper which got debunked in the same journal twice that "Bitcoin could help push global warming above 1°C". The paper for some reason assumed that energy consumption and transaction processing are directly related. This seems fine to the outsider but anyone who knows anything about how cryptocurrencies work knows that this isn't the case, including newer transactions add 0
21:29:29 <bridgerton[m]> environmental costs.
21:30:16 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort***> also as cherry on top there is the fact that cryptocurrency mining at large is more environmentally friendly because green/wasted energy is actually cheaper than coal
21:30:35 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort***> but who are you to dare implicate the free market can work against climate change!
21:41:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ust?
21:41:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> As in, luna?
21:43:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> <susman1[m]> "a lot of people (left leaning..." <- My response is "youre on reddit, hypocrite"
21:43:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> Do people think casually browsing the web all day only uses the power from their phone or pc?
21:43:36 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort***> UST I would assume are US T-bills?
21:44:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> We can always hope
21:46:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> Even companies like visa are massive power drains. How many people get in their car to  drive to work in an airconditioned building for 8 hrs and are online their rntirr shifts? Printing paperwork, sending mail, all sorts of stuff
21:48:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> Using power to mine shitcoins is wasteful, whether you believe in <s>global warming</s> climate change or not
21:49:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> s/<//<\/
21:49:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> * Using power to mine shitcoins is wasteful, whether you believe in <s>global warming</s> climate change or not
21:51:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> Using power to mine xmr should produce money that is not backed by thin air
21:55:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> Proof of stake is, by definition, based on fiat
21:55:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> How do you mine pos coins? You need to become a vakidator. How? By spending money to purchase a position
21:56:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> What does it matter 
21:56:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> Is lithium mining better?
21:57:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> Are battery disposals every x yesrs filling landfills provably better?
21:57:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> Is the increased weight of electric vehicles and wear caused to roads and future construction, better?
21:58:31 <bike[m]> What I’ve noticed about humanity is that we’ve reached a point where we keep using new stuff and then finding out like 50 years later that it’s actually harming us as a whole group is some way shape or form
21:58:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> How do you charge an electric car? With sun and win power? Transmit over cables made out of environkentslly friendly wiring and conduits?
21:59:16 <bike[m]> Say for instance cigarettes
21:59:31 <bike[m]> 1950 someone would look at you wild for saying you didn’t smoke for “health reasons”
21:59:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> Lets all head to Monero Offtopic  before banhammer kicks us all
21:59:45 <bike[m]> 2023 someone would look at you wild for saying you smoke
21:59:50 <Alex|LocalMonero> <ofrnxmr[m]> "Even companies like visa are..." <- The environmental attack on PoW coins is frankly so unreasonable that I don't think any sincere environmentalist who looked at the data would ever agree with. It feels like hit pieces meant to manufacture opinion using confirmation bias of environmentalist-leaning people.
21:59:50 <Alex|LocalMonero> There are thousands if not millions of more intense greenhouse gas emitters than all of PoW crypto combined. I mean, it's like worrying about a mosquito bite when you have cruise missiles being shot at you.
22:00:32 <bike[m]> I want someone to shoot cruise missiles at me
22:00:41 <Alex|LocalMonero> Move to Kyiv.
22:01:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> or portland /s
22:01:24 <bike[m]> Is there free wifi over there?
22:01:32 <Alex|LocalMonero> I'm pretty sure there is.
22:02:21 <bike[m]> Perfect buying tickets right now
22:16:23 <monerobull[m]> <bike[m]> "I want someone to shoot cruise..." <- Perfect death.
22:17:51 <monerobull[m]> Chilling with your buddies, chatting about the weather, hellfire gets send out and before its sound even arrives you are liquidated 
22:17:52 <monerobull[m]> s/send/sent/
22:19:40 <monerobull[m]> Thats the cool precision-death by apache way. In kyiv youre more likely to get the maimed by rubble / fire from indirect hits
22:20:05 <monerobull[m]> death by infection 3 gruling weeks later
22:21:30 <bike[m]> Least favorite way to die
22:21:41 <bike[m]> Incapacitated to the point of not being able to wipe your own ass
22:21:44 <bike[m]> At that point shoot me
22:23:13 <monerobull[m]> bike[m]: From what i've read, i wouldnt want to be taken to funkytown
22:25:55 <plowsof11> #monero-offtopic:monero.social🤷
22:26:28 <monerobull[m]> plowsof11: this kills the conversation 💀
22:27:03 <plowsof11> least / favourite ways to die?
22:27:46 <monerobull[m]> for a conversation? be killed by a janny telling you to use a different channel :P
23:07:22 <trackerrant[m]> bike: bile i bridgerton bridgertonll
23:21:51 <bike[m]> <monerobull[m]> "From what i've read, i wouldnt..." <- Yeah that sounds worse tbh