00:24:42 <gingeropolous> part of my wants to max out these 2 supermicro quad opteron boards.. and part of me realizes that they'd be stupid power hungry
02:54:23 <nsaunders> q
04:44:44 <funuzd[m]> I've been (trying) to live off Monero for the past 6 months or so. I had somebody who was purchasing small quantities from me through cash in mail and I was also using gift cards. Cake aren't doing the gift cards anymore (outside of US) and my buyer isn't interested in Monero anymore. Are there any Aussies in here that would be interested in purchasing small quantities of non-KYC Monero from me? It would all be through escrow.
04:51:58 <nsaunders> does a view only wallet require much storage?
04:59:53 <skeptdev[m]> <funuzd[m]> "I've been (trying) to live off..." <- Unfortunately, unless your business targets privacy-focused clients, I don't think you're gonna succeed
05:00:48 <naphtha777[m]> <funuzd[m]> "I've been (trying) to live off..." <- why not sell on localmonero
05:02:09 <funuzd[m]> This isn't much of a business, I'm just looking to cover my bills and expenses each week.
05:03:08 <funuzd[m]> LocalMonero looks like non-KYC volume trading which is not in the spirit of what I'm doing at all.
05:03:41 <naphtha777[m]> localmonero has buyer ads and seller ads
05:03:56 <modul8[m]> its not volume trading. anyone can use it. not sure of the fees to be honest.
05:04:00 <anarkiocrypto[m4> https://www.bitrefill.com and https://www.coinsbee.com/en/shop have gift cards for Australia if that helps.
05:04:01 <naphtha777[m]> you can sell how much you want to buyer ads
05:04:29 <modul8[m]> localmonero does not require an email address which is nice
05:04:33 <naphtha777[m]> modul8[m]: fees arent that bad tbh, i can find ads buying for 5 eur less than the market value
05:04:55 <naphtha777[m]> once i found someone buying for over market value
05:05:42 <funuzd[m]> I did not know there were buyer ads. I will have a better look at it.
05:11:36 <modul8[m]> <funuzd[m]> "I did not know there were..." <- may be better option to look there first as i dont see a good reason not to use it. hence why my spidey sense feeling a little tingle right now
05:14:10 <funuzd[m]> As I said to you privately, we will either use escrow or I will assume all risk. I just looked, all the trades for me to "sell" through cash in mail are larger volume than I'm looking to deal with. There's no shortage of risk with non-KYC volume trading.
06:37:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> Have fun with YOUR trusted escrow
06:37:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ill take lm over whoareya anyday
06:38:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> "i looked" and still wrong
06:54:48 <omnero376[m]> <funuzd[m]> "As I said to you privately, we..." <- You're plainly lying. There are clearly 3 ads with no minimum, all of which are traders with thousands of 100% feedback. You can accept one of those ads and pay the fees (which make sense as you get the benefit of a trader with a lot of reputation), or place your own ad and deal with less reputable people at market price or better
06:57:01 <omnero376[m]> actually there are 4
07:14:44 <nsaunders> on ubuntu 23.04 there's no .bitmonero for the blockchain.  Where does the GUI wallet store data?
07:21:38 <DanIsnotthemanBr> https://monerodocs.org/interacting/monero-wallet-gui-reference/
07:22:46 <DanIsnotthemanBr> https://github.com/monero-ecosystem/monero-GUI-guide/blob/master/monero-GUI-guide.md#starting-a-local-node-full-node
07:27:04 <omnero376[m]> <nsaunders> "on ubuntu 23.04 there's no ...." <- I thought that was the correct directory. Maybe you're just looking in the gui file browser with hidden directories not showing, so ctrl+h will show it?
07:36:25 <nsaunders> no, I looked for hidden files.  ls -lah
07:36:49 <nsaunders> there's a monero folder, but no luck in there that I see.
09:56:20 <k4r4b3y[m]1> where can I read more about the nuances about how Monero does pruning?
10:07:14 <k4r4b3y[m]1> for example, if I create a pruned node for myself, can I use that node to restore an old wallet?
10:07:26 <sech1> yes
10:07:43 <k4r4b3y[m]1> or does such an old wallet need info that pruned nodes may not provide?
10:08:44 <k4r4b3y[m]1> how does the pruned node still "know" about the enotes of an old wallet (a few years old let's say, and let's say I create the pruned node "today")
10:08:55 <k4r4b3y[m]1> because the pruned node lacks 2/3 of the blocks
10:09:08 <k4r4b3y[m]1> so it might not be able to provide the wallet the full set of enotes?
10:32:07 <sech1> Pruned node has all blocks, it just stores 1/8 of prunable data for each block. You can still sync a wallet from it.
10:39:18 <k4r4b3y[m]1> is there a disadvantage, to the user, running a pruned node and not a full node?
10:59:12 <plowsof11> if the user wants to host xmrchain.net they need a full node
11:04:16 <k4r4b3y[m]1> Yeah that must suck. Apart from that, using a pruned node as an xmr wallet's server seems to have no disadvantages to the user. Good.
11:04:47 <plowsof11> read this a sec https://www.getmonero.org/2019/02/01/pruning.html 
11:08:30 <k4r4b3y[m]1> I read that, and the moneropedia one, too
11:08:47 <k4r4b3y[m]1> currently going through the monero stackexchange's prune tag.
11:20:06 <alex[m]1234> hey
11:20:13 <alex[m]1234> why monero price is down?
11:20:23 <alex[m]1234> 145$ ?
11:21:02 <alex[m]1234> Oh my bad 1 XMR = 1 XMR
11:54:19 <plowsof11> alex price talk -> #monero-markets:monero.social 
12:00:35 * nothsec[m]1 uploaded an image: (267KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/karapara.net/c7a87477f6974b12346f232c89b2ec2fd371bac62afcce4055644c83122869db/IMG_20230605_144320.jpg >
12:00:56 <nothsec[m]1> There is lots of stickers everywhere in Bulgaria
12:01:01 <nothsec[m]1> Good job guys
12:01:46 <minth> #monero-markets is also here on libera, no need to go to matrix for it
13:00:26 <Demetrius[m]1> first confirmation is so fast, less than 30 sec
13:00:35 <Demetrius[m]1> is that right?
13:02:02 <minth> sounds about right, it can also take a few minutes
15:06:18 <TrasherDK[m]> <gingeropolous> "part of my wants to max out..." <- I feel your pain. Having CPU's able, but not free, is frustrating.
15:16:46 <TrasherDK[m]> <funuzd[m]> "I did not know there were..." <- funuzd: Looking for buyers in a market, you should start by looking at the sellers in the same market, just to understand the mark-up you will experience, engaging in that market.
15:29:05 <TrasherDK[m]> <k4r4b3y[m]1> "> <@k4r4b3y:karapara.net> is..." <- I have `rsync`d against remote pruned nodes, many times. After, the local, `rsync`en node, launch, and continues, like nothing.
15:33:04 <TrasherDK[m]> 48 hours in, fsck.ext4checking a 2.7 TB partition. Life sucks.
15:37:59 <Alex|LocalMonero> <funuzd[m]> "I've been (trying) to live off..." <- LocalMonero is the perfect case for you, m8. It's not "volume trading" specialized by any means.
15:38:24 <Alex|LocalMonero> funuzd: join #localmonero:agoradesk.com as well, plenty of aussie sellers there.
16:59:35 <alex[m]1234> How does mobilecoin compare to monero?
17:00:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> Pos fork
17:00:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats as far as i got
17:01:16 <apotheon> Isn't it kind of a snake oil more-centralized pseudo-fork thing from CryptoNote?
17:01:27 <alex[m]1234> is it better than monero?
17:01:30 <apotheon> alex[m]1234: Avoid it.  IT's shit.
17:01:38 <apotheon> Monero's much better.
17:02:37 <apotheon> The founders/coredevs were on board with the idea of making it trackable by the state and censorable for what they think of as reasonable purposes.
17:03:23 <apotheon> I have yet to see a straight-up cryptocurrency I'd take more seriously as a protection of my privacy than Monero.
17:03:32 <alex[m]1234> So why is in integrated in signal?
17:03:37 <apotheon> DarkFi looks good, but it's a very different thing with different use cases.
17:03:45 <apotheon> Signal kinda sold out.
17:04:26 <apotheon> There are options that not only haven't sold out, but have better designs now, too.  Both Briar and Session are decentralized and use better designs for privacy.
17:04:59 <apotheon> MobileCoin has some kind of scammy premine thing going on, too.
17:05:50 <apotheon> Moxie took a MobileCoin premine payout for his endorsement of MobileCoin and integration in Signal, then he handed the reins of Signal over to the WhatsApp founder dude.
17:06:00 <apotheon> . . . who now runs Signal.
17:06:39 <apotheon> I knew some shit was up even before MobileCoin, though, when Moxie actually defended WhatsApp's MITM-factory feature.
17:06:48 <apotheon> s/feature/"feature"/
17:07:01 <alex[m]1234> apotheon: I'm already having a difficult time bringing my friends from snap chat and WhatsApp to signal
17:07:29 <apotheon> Yeah, it's a common and unrelenting problem: most people don't care enough about privacy.
17:07:53 <apotheon> Signal's better than WhatsApp, but I wouldn't trust it for anything truly significant.
17:08:14 <alex[m]1234> apotheon: yeah
17:08:47 <apotheon> A lot can be gleaned from a little metadata and some server logs, even with E2EE.
17:10:10 <alex[m]1234> But session is not truly decentralized your massages and files will stay in session's servers until the end user reads them
17:11:01 <apotheon> They're decentralized servers, at least architecturally, which is the necessary first step in decentralization.
17:11:10 <apotheon> Signal servers are *necessarily* centralized.
17:11:10 <alex[m]1234> Session only hides your IP 
17:11:42 <apotheon> Session doesn't have shit for metadata.  I'm not sure what you think it's exposing.
17:12:11 <apotheon> Session is decentralized by design, in the same way that blockchains are decentralized.
17:12:38 <apotheon> Briar is in some sense more fully decentralized than Session, though.
17:12:41 <sech1> Signal's messages are kept on the server for indefinite time even if the chat is with timeout
17:12:48 <apotheon> yep
17:13:19 <sech1> If you have signal on phone and PC for example, you'll see old messages being loaded and erased even if they timed out on the phone already
17:13:24 <alex[m]1234> apotheon: yes it is
17:13:39 <apotheon> Signal has also had some issues with not releasing source code for things in a timely manner, sometimes being so slow about it that the source isn't out until long after it has been replaced with new code, which is . . . concerning, let's say.
17:14:09 <sech1> so theoretically some modified Signal version could download old "deleted" messages, I think
17:14:15 <apotheon> yep
17:14:27 <Snipa> Sigh, why can't messengers just be secure and easy.
17:14:52 <apotheon> not enough interest to fund the work AND keep the devs honest at the same time
17:14:53 <Snipa> Good adoption would be nice too. :D
17:14:56 <Snipa> Yeah, I know.
17:15:10 <Snipa> Hard to make money off people's info if it's all encrypted all the time.;
17:15:36 <apotheon> I'll choose keeping devs honest over convenience, as long as it actually WORKS, though.
17:15:46 <Snipa> Yeah, the issue is people I want to chat with, won't.
17:15:59 <apotheon> Get a better class of friends, I guess.
17:16:06 <apotheon> (har)
17:16:16 <alex[m]1234> apotheon: oh
17:16:30 <apotheon> I've got the missus and several friends on Briar, and a few others on Session, though.
17:16:53 <Snipa> Most of them don't need encryption.
17:16:54 <apotheon> The only people I have on Signal as my main communications channel are ex-co-workers, I think.
17:17:08 <apotheon> Everyone needs encryption, but yeah, most people don't think they do.
17:17:20 <Snipa> Yeah, that's fair.
17:17:36 <Snipa> Tbh, if OTR wasn't such a pain in the ass to integrate into things, it's still one of my favourite general options.
17:18:11 <alex[m]1234> In my opinion Briar is not good for day to day chat, Briar was build to bypass censorship 
17:20:32 <apotheon> The main reason OTR is so difficult to integrate is probably its licensing.
17:20:51 <apotheon> That's one of the detriments of using licenses that discourage forks.
17:21:23 <apotheon> Being built to bypass censorship makes it great for day-to-day comms, in my opinion.
17:21:53 <apotheon> It's actually what the missus and I use most, because (among other benefits) it's the single most reliable way to get text messages through that I've ever used.
17:27:01 <apotheon> Briar even beats SMS for reliable message delivery, in my experience.
17:27:36 <apotheon> Over the years before better stuff than Signal appeared, I had a LOT of issues with Signal losing messages altogether.
17:27:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> <apotheon> "Session doesn't have shit for..." <- Google fcm
17:28:02 <apotheon> I'm pretty sure there has never been a completely lost Briar message.
17:28:37 <apotheon> Status looks promising, too, but I don't know enough about it yet to be sure.
17:29:06 <apotheon> ofrnxmr[m]: Is that a reference to Firebase Cloud Messaging?
17:29:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> <sech1> "Signal's messages are kept on..." <- Session stores "disappearing" messages for 14 days. I thought signal did in fact delete "deleted" messages 
17:29:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> <apotheon> "Signal has also had some..." <- So does session, shipping binaries with no source
17:29:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> Deoendencies*
17:30:05 <apotheon> Yeah, there's a two-week grace period before the decentralized message nodes delete messages.
17:30:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> apotheon: Yea
17:30:34 <apotheon> I think it deletes them after delivery, if they're picked up before the 14 days, but I might be mistaken.
17:30:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Session doesnt
17:30:58 <apotheon> re: source . . .
17:31:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> Theyll even reappear under the right circumstances 
17:31:10 <apotheon> Do you mean they haven't published the source, or that the binaries don't come with source included?
17:31:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> My github issue after they reappeared, and many others + session response that it is by design
17:31:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> apotheon: I mean they ship dependencies that dont have source available
17:32:20 <apotheon> Well . . . the fourteen day thing is a known feature allowing for message delivery without both endpoints having to be online at the same time, which is a far better approach than Signal.
17:32:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> When we tried to fork it for fdroid, linsui found the version of some module they used for encryption or transport never had any source available
17:32:55 <RavFX[m]> Session source look buried deep somewhere
17:32:55 <RavFX[m]> when I Go in Download, I do have all platform, zero "source" option
17:32:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> So linsuo used an open source alternative 
17:33:05 <apotheon> Oh, if you're talking about the notification stuff in the standard Google Play version, just use the FDroid version, which doesn't come with that crap.
17:33:08 <RavFX[m]> Same for signal, have to find it yourself. If it's even there
17:33:19 <apotheon> 17:32 < ofrnxmr[m]> When we tried to fork it for fdroid, linsui found the version of some module they used for encryption or transport never had any source available
17:33:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> apotheon: It stores the messages agfter they are read and "disappear"
17:33:22 <apotheon> that's news to me
17:33:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> the fdroid fork ks a cpmmunity fork
17:33:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> By linsui
17:33:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not endorsed or recommended bt session
17:33:57 <apotheon> huh
17:34:02 <apotheon> Well, that works for me, anyway.
17:34:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> Session agreed to remove google shit, then backtracked and said they wont do it until there is a foss alternative as reliable as fcm
17:34:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> yep
17:34:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> The fdroid version uses foss dependencies 
17:34:59 <apotheon> I was pretty sure Session was delivering an FDroid version, from its own repo, though -- and that'd have to be a version that doesn't use the Play stuff, by definition.
17:35:15 <apotheon> I'd have to go back and check.
17:35:42 <apotheon> If it's as bad as you make it sound, it still beats Signal, but just reinforces my preference for Briar.
17:37:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://github.com/oxen-io/session-android/issues/73#issuecomment-1139230515
17:37:40 <apotheon> One thing about FDroid that annoys me is the way it uses the term "UPDATE" for the downloading process and the installing process, which makes it difficult at times to recognize what part download-and-install is happening at any given moment.
17:41:23 <apotheon> ofrnxmr[m]: Is the Session fork you mentioned in the standard F-Droid repository or in a separate repository?
17:42:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://github.com/oxen-io/session-android/issues/73#issuecomment-1130002205
17:42:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> apotheon: Separate
17:42:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> Nvnnvn
17:43:10 <apotheon> It looks like the official F-Droid version has FCM disabled by default, but it can be enabled.
17:43:16 <idkrn[m]> <apotheon> "One thing about FDroid that..." <- Use a better client
17:43:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> I read session repo. Yes, its in fdroid.org
17:43:29 <apotheon> idkrn[m]: What's a better "client" for F-Droid?
17:43:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> apotheon: Its just cosmetic
17:43:47 <idkrn[m]> apotheon: Droidify or neostore
17:43:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> auroradroid and neosomething
17:44:07 <apotheon> interesting
17:44:16 <apotheon> I didn't even know there were alternate clients.
17:44:36 <apotheon> Can they be installed from F-Droid?
17:44:37 <ofrnxmr[m]> Theyre available in fdroid too :p lol
17:44:43 <idkrn[m]> apotheon: The official one is the worst. It uses an ancient target SDK and has bad design
17:44:56 <idkrn[m]> apotheon: Yeah but it would be better to use izzyondroid
17:44:58 <apotheon> good to know
17:45:03 <apotheon> thanks for the info
17:45:20 <idkrn[m]> The other ones can auto update without privileged access
17:45:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: Fdroid basic can do this ^
17:45:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> On android 12+
17:46:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> "F-droid basic alpha"
17:46:22 <apotheon> I like how positive the Session guys are about an FCM-stripped Session fork.
17:46:38 <apotheon> That's a pretty strong indicator they aren't doing something sketchy, I think.
17:46:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not to me
17:47:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://github.com/oxen-io/session-android/issues/73#issuecomment-1130002205
17:47:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> They backpeddled 
17:47:09 <apotheon> The Briar guys are pretty positive about forks and reimplementations, too.
17:47:14 <apotheon> Oh, did they?  Shit.
17:47:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> And its been > a year since linsui did it and they just continued on like nothing happened
17:48:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> Told linsui to maje sure people dont think its official or supported
17:48:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> And said they woukd eventually release an officual one
17:50:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> started off sounding great. Quickly went left when they went from "yes, i agree, we should ship a free version asap" to "use our apk, it has no fcm (lie)"  to "if you dont enable it, who cares" etcetc
17:51:24 <Rosie0801[m]> I’ll help 11 people ,on how to make $40,000 in 3days  from the polymath cryptocurrency. if interested send me a friend request or direct message by asking me (HOW) for more details on how to get started
17:51:32 <ceetee[m]> <apotheon> "idkrn: What's a better "client..." <- droidify. neostore looks a bit nicer, but can be quite buggy and frustrating
17:52:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> rosieeeeeee
17:52:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> How much is that in xmr? Rosie0801: 
17:53:03 <ceetee[m]> GIVE ME MONERO Rosie0801: 
17:53:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> She must be too busy for me
17:53:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ohhh, so she cums when you call.i see
17:54:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yo rosie, speak. We were in the middle of a conversation
17:55:45 <rbrunner> Curious people want to know why, out of all possible numbers, 11 people will make that money
17:57:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> Theres only 4 of us though
17:58:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> So do i get ... twice as much xmr
17:58:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> apotheon @apotheon:libera.chat:  this was my conclusion on session foss... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/140756e26e21ea62cd90af331450b5609fd073dc>)
17:59:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> at the same time, session twitter would be tweeting things like "remove google from your life - use session" 
18:01:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> And id be replying like "you rely on and ship google though"
18:01:14 <apotheon> heh
18:01:32 <apotheon> . . . so "it beats Signal" isn't by as big a margin as it could be.
18:07:06 <plowsof11> does Rosie0801 need to be banned or
18:09:22 <apotheon> If I could just get everyone in the world off of iPhones, a major motivation for using Session instead of Briar would be eliminated.
18:14:55 <idkrn[m]> <apotheon> ". . . so "it beats Signal" isn't..." <- I'm not aware of anything that actually beats signal
18:15:17 <apotheon> depends on what you want, I guess
18:15:26 <apotheon> I want privacy and trustworthiness.
18:15:34 <apotheon> I also like it when things don't lose messages.
18:15:36 <idkrn[m]> apotheon: Signal provides both
18:15:43 <idkrn[m]> And you don't need to trust signal servers
18:15:45 <apotheon> Session doesn't beat Signal for losing messages, but Briar does.
18:15:52 <apotheon> How do you not trust Signal servers?
18:16:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: A lot does
18:16:07 <idkrn[m]> apotheon: By design
18:16:10 <apotheon> Do you run your own?  Great.  Now you can't communicate with most of the world.
18:16:17 <idkrn[m]> Sealed sender is a big part of that
18:16:24 <idkrn[m]> apotheon: No necessary
18:16:32 <idkrn[m]> * In reply to @apotheon:libera.chat
18:16:32 <idkrn[m]> Do you run your own?  Great.  Now you can't communicate with most of the world.
18:16:32 <idkrn[m]> Not necessary
18:16:49 <apotheon> . . . so you see no dangers in metadata.
18:16:51 <apotheon> good to know
18:16:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> Centralized network of ips and phone numbers is easily beatable
18:16:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: ?
18:17:02 <minth> signal links your account to your phone number, that's terrible opsec
18:17:10 <apotheon> Social graphs aren't a thing, I guess.
18:17:16 <idkrn[m]> minth: Not true
18:17:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: ?
18:17:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: ^ this is the design you speak of?
18:18:06 <minth> idkrn[m]: not true that it links them or not true that it's terrible?
18:18:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or you just believe that signal runs the same code on the server as what is published openly? 
18:18:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or you KNOW that they do
18:19:10 <idkrn[m]> Signal designed things so that you don't need to trust their servers
18:19:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> koolaid
18:19:37 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: The code on the servers is irrelevant
18:19:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> What r u talking about? They designed things so you MUST trust them
18:19:54 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: You just don't understand how signal works
18:20:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> Even your phone provider knows youre using signal
18:20:03 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Do you know what sealed sender is
18:20:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: No, you dont understand anything, really
18:20:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> Basic stuff here
18:20:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: Do i care? Yes. There is a big long blog post about it
18:20:55 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Sign up with a VoIP number. Also who cares if they know
18:21:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> What does that have to do with SIGNAL SERVERS
18:21:05 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Coming from you lol
18:21:20 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: What are you supposedly trusting them with
18:21:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: Yup
18:21:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: Metadata
18:21:37 <idkrn[m]> Everything is e2ee even metadata
18:21:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> Rofl
18:21:58 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: This is a very convincing argument
18:22:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yeah,signal doesnt know times or routes 🤡
18:22:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> Phone numbers are cosmetic 🤡
18:22:44 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: You can use a VoIP number…
18:22:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> Signal has nooooonidea how much you use it or who you talk to 🤡
18:23:03 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: They don't know who you talk to if you use sealed sender
18:23:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: Why? I thought signal was trustless
18:23:26 <idkrn[m]> Sealed sender makes it extremely difficult to find out anything
18:23:36 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Cause you complained about needing it
18:23:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats for sender recipient 
18:23:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not for servers smh
18:24:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: If its trustless, i can use my work phone number with np
18:24:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> But i cant, now can i?
18:24:20 <idkrn[m]> What are you worried about the servers doing
18:24:26 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Go ahead
18:25:19 <apotheon> 18:15 < idkrn[m]> And you don't need to trust signal servers
18:25:19 <apotheon> 18:20 < idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Sign up with a VoIP number. Also who cares if they know
18:25:23 <apotheon> explains a lot
18:25:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> ill upload my contact list while im at it 🤡
18:25:37 <apotheon> "Who cares about opsec?  I only care about encryption."
18:25:42 <apotheon> Encryption isn't a silver bullet.
18:25:54 <idkrn[m]> apotheon: About what
18:26:07 <idkrn[m]> apotheon: What are you talking about
18:26:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> about your lack of 🧠
18:26:18 <apotheon> 18:21 < idkrn[m]> Everything is e2ee even metadata
18:26:22 <apotheon> your telephone number is metadata
18:26:28 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Your not really in a position to claim that
18:26:36 <apotheon> information about who you're contacting is metadata
18:26:42 <apotheon> rate of messaging is metadata
18:26:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> 👀 plowsof dm'd me and said "go tf to off topic. Ill kick you too"
18:26:56 <idkrn[m]> apotheon: Sealed sender makes that almost impossible to find out
18:27:19 <idkrn[m]> apotheon: Fair, but what can they actually do with that
18:27:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: You dont know what yas is talking about
18:27:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: Off topic
18:27:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> We watched a movie in classlast week about thus
18:27:57 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: You keep saying that and nothing this
18:28:33 <plowsof11> i think the best thing to do is to direct ALL of these complaints toward Molly. (after the android wallet sdk ccs is merged and hopefully funded) 🙏 are you ready for this energy valldrac 
18:28:34 <apotheon> Are we in danger of being kicked if we don't change the subject?
18:28:49 <idkrn[m]> * In reply to @ofrnxmr:monero.social
18:28:49 <idkrn[m]> You dont know what yas is talking about
18:28:49 <idkrn[m]> You keep saying that and nothing interesting
18:29:03 <apotheon> 18:27 < idkrn[m]> apotheon: Fair, but what can they actually do with that
18:29:24 <plowsof11> is the topic just "encryption" vs "metadata used to build social circle / time / frequency of messages"?
18:29:26 <apotheon> build social graphs, leading to investigation of other aspects of your life using targeted tools
18:29:57 <apotheon> opsec matters for communication
18:30:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> Fine, fuck yall
18:30:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwGsr3SzCZc
18:30:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> skip to 5:35
18:30:09 <apotheon> economic activity is communication, including Monero
18:30:26 <idkrn[m]> plowsof11: Molly does not deserver complaints 😤
18:30:36 <idkrn[m]> * In reply to @plowsof:matrix.org
18:30:36 <idkrn[m]> i think the best thing to do is to direct ALL of these complaints toward Molly. (after the android wallet sdk ccs is merged and hopefully funded) 🙏 are you ready for this energy valldrac
18:30:36 <idkrn[m]> Molly does not deserve complaints 😤
18:31:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> What does it "deserve"?
18:31:07 <idkrn[m]> apotheon: There is no social graph to be built when they only know how many messages you send
18:31:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwGsr3SzCZc
18:31:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> 5:35 please
18:31:27 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Praise and money
18:31:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> Watch slowly and stop embarassing yourself in public
18:31:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: Lmfao
18:31:52 <apotheon> idkrn[m]: You ignored the part about who's on the other side of the communications -- and yes, the number of messages sent does contribute to social graph analysis.
18:31:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> Praise for what?
18:32:07 <apotheon> It shows strength of connections (or purports to show that, at least).
18:32:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> Please tell me what molly has accomplished in 2 yrs worthy of the praise and money aboce what is already allocated
18:32:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> (after you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwGsr3SzCZc and skip to 5:35)
18:33:00 <idkrn[m]> apotheon: Who's on the other side of is protected by sealed sender
18:33:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> l o l
18:33:32 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Not in a place where I can do that
18:33:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Go reread sealed sender. Even if it it, IT HIDES NOTHIBG
18:33:45 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: This is too technical for me to understand
18:34:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> Signal knows what ips are receiving messages, replying 
18:34:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwGsr3SzCZc
18:34:05 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: That's its purpose
18:34:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> Video form ya damn hippo
18:34:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: Says you and nobody else
18:34:34 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: What
18:34:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not even signal
18:34:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> idkrn[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwGsr3SzCZc
18:34:45 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: What does signal claim
18:35:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> Read what sealed sender is and does
18:36:11 <apotheon> Sealed Sender is designed to reduce data retention, not to prevent data collection.
18:36:29 <plowsof11> im going to read this https://cs-people.bu.edu/kaptchuk/publications/ndss21.pdf in #monero-offtopic:monero.social 
18:36:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> Only a jackrabbit would think it obfuscates data flows from 1 endpoint to another
18:37:16 <apotheon> While it theoretically prevents building a social graph directly, anyone with access to the system can use it to collect data elsewhere to build a social graph.
18:37:37 <idkrn[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: "shouldn’t need to know who the sender is."
18:37:37 <idkrn[m]>  https://signal.org/blog/sealed-sender/#:~:text=shouldn%E2%80%99t%20need%20to%20know%20who%20the%20sender%20is.
18:37:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> #monero-offtopic
18:37:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> Apotheon you can join on irc too
18:37:56 <apotheon> You don't even need much technical background to get that from the sealed sender "technology preview" blog post.
18:37:59 <idkrn[m]> apotheon: Collect what data? From where
18:38:00 <apotheon> I'm on IRC.
18:38:09 <apotheon> What do you mean?
18:38:28 <apotheon> oh, I see what you mean
18:38:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> #Monero-offtopic is bridged to irc
18:39:11 <apotheon> not that I need more channels
18:39:42 <apotheon> Of course, the general stuff about social graphs and metadata are relevant to Monero, too.  Opsec matters for all communications, including economic transactions.
18:39:59 <apotheon> The particulars of sealed sender aren't Monero-relevant, though.
18:41:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> ...
18:42:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> Wrong room apo :)
18:42:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> Weve moved chat to where we can speak without restraint and go as far down rabbit holes as necessary
18:43:50 <apotheon> . . . so opsec is off-topic for Monero now?
18:43:53 <apotheon> weird
18:44:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> signal has absofuckinumgluteky nothing to do with monero
18:44:47 <apotheon> 18:39 < apotheon> Of course, the general stuff about social graphs and metadata are relevant to Monero, too.  Opsec matters for all communications, including economic transactions.
18:44:50 <apotheon> 18:39 < apotheon> The particulars of sealed sender aren't Monero-relevant, though.
18:44:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> The other room is monero-offtopic, not random-offtopic
18:45:07 <apotheon> ohhhhhkay then
18:45:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Like research lounge instead of lab
18:46:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> it gets to be pretty active too, and some good convos there
18:46:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Such as thus exact chat was has with the past week
18:46:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Within*
18:47:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> Regarding signal, metadata, and social graphs specifically
18:53:33 <chesterfield[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "signal has absofuckinumgluteky..." <- It does use a fork of Monero 😊
18:53:45 <valldrac[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "Regarding signal, metadata..." <- So, what's the room to discuss this? I'll join in 😁
18:59:23 <apotheon> As always, in my experience, shifting channels killed the conversation, but in this case it was probably a mercy killing.
19:01:39 <valldrac[m]> No problem. Next time. This is a recurring discussion
19:02:22 <plowsof11> apotheon you didnt switch channels , the conversation is happening on our computer screens which remains in the same place 
19:03:05 <apotheon> Really . . . ?  I'm in monero-offtopic and I see nothing but a link to a video.
19:03:50 <apotheon> oh, and a link to a usenix conference thing
19:04:54 <apotheon> . . . and the video was linked here first, so it's not exactly a continuation.
19:05:32 <plowsof11> we're batting for the same team, the devils advocate has left - so we can just agree with each other or let the conversation die 
19:07:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> sgp:  can you fix history in off topic
19:07:39 <sgp[m]> what do I need to do there
19:08:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its set to since invited, the rest are.."since the point of selcting this option"
19:10:03 <sgp[m]> Is seeing the history important? I wouldn't think so for an offtopic channel?
19:11:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> We have important convos there all the time
19:11:26 <sgp[m]> in offtopic?
19:11:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> just not necessarily about "monero"
19:12:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Pools is the cesspool
19:12:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Offtopic is just not monero specific
19:42:07 <chch3003[m]> Hmm what is the backup plan if there is a global internet outage? Asking for a friend.
19:46:23 <Alex|LocalMonero> chch3003[m]: For broadcasting xmr txs? Short-wave radio.
19:46:35 <Alex|LocalMonero> Bounce them off the moon for extra swag.
20:00:48 <chch3003[m]> And synching nodes
20:03:36 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Send plowsof 
20:05:02 <hyc> Althea network is worth looking into, they seem to be doing real usable infrastructure as opposed to Helium's useless toys
20:05:28 <hyc> but yes, we can do packet radio too if needed
20:06:32 <hyc> probably we should get more HAM radio folks into Monero
20:07:07 <hyc> a lot of them are already experts at off-grid living, run solar+battery operated radio relays, etc
20:09:09 <hyc> but I like the notion of Althea's community owned 4G networks. LTE mesh networking, pretty much ideal.
20:10:08 <hyc> still would want some satellite assistance, for intercontinental comms
20:12:26 <RavFX[m]> But you need KYC for HAM, except if you ignore the law of course.
20:13:30 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Isnt it licensed?
20:13:33 <RavFX[m]> (You have to pass tests then you get assigned a callsign (linked to you)
20:13:52 <RavFX[m]> so yes, it's KYC/licensed
20:14:10 <hyc> yes that's true
20:14:46 <hyc> and if you ignore the law and operate an unlicensed transmitter powerful enough to have a useful range, you'll have unwelcome visitors come to shut you down
20:15:13 <RavFX[m]> hyc: yep. exactly :/
20:15:18 <hyc> there are some unlicensed radio bands still, for short range comms (1 mile or so? something like that)
20:15:48 <hyc> walky talkies, FRS radios, etc use them
20:16:05 <RavFX[m]> Yeah, more than a mile.
20:16:06 <RavFX[m]> Using some frequencies I don't remember
20:16:06 <RavFX[m]> Like these doomsday communicators I saw a while ago (forgot links)
20:16:56 <RavFX[m]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9qWJNcTHWI
20:17:02 <hyc> you can also get pretty decent range with wifi if using narrow beam point-to-point antennas
20:17:52 <hyc> oh, that uses LoRaWAN
20:18:22 <hyc> low energy, low bandwidth. good for SMSs I guess.
20:19:49 <hyc> we funded these guys, but their Lorawan project went nowhere https://twitter.com/Locha_io
20:19:58 <hyc> maybe they exit scammed, I don't recall the details
20:23:13 <hyc> that armachat looks like a nice device to have anyway, for dire emergencies
20:23:25 <hyc> but it won't keep the monero network running
20:23:27 <RavFX[m]> they have updated version https://hackaday.io/project/182611-armachat-picomputer-fusion-with-raspberry-pico
20:24:46 <RavFX[m]> Non, for Monero, you need way better (can't even work on HAM even if you have a license) as the allocated frequency are quite narrow, you might be able to use a 9600 bauds modem legaly.
20:25:51 <hyc> yeah. so LTE mesh or point-to-point 802.11 wifi
20:26:09 <hyc> maybe Elon's Starlink will still work ;)
20:27:38 <hyc> or we send microSD cards around, strapped to pigeons' legs
20:29:30 <chch3003[m]> Interesting, I bookmarked the links :) 
20:29:30 <chch3003[m]> I am afarid we can't sync nodes from radio tho. Hopefully we have Starlink or renting a satellite like BlockStream is doing
20:32:45 <RavFX[m]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DumgHz56IjI&t=21s
20:33:20 <chch3003[m]> @hyc Was it this guy working on Locha https://twitter.com/willcl_ark ?
20:33:22 <RavFX[m]> That kind of tech could work.
20:33:22 <RavFX[m]> But we would need designated nodes. to prevent people using all the bandwidth syncing
20:34:40 <hyc> chch3003[m]: it was Randy Brito, but I dunno who else worked with him https://twitter.com/randybrito/status/1219236455823921153
22:49:52 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Anyone notice wavweb constantly connects and leaves?
22:58:34 <idkrn[m]> Yes
23:09:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> Kick
23:09:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> Em