01:39:07 <cerebral_flex[m]> <playmate7782[m]> "depending on what u call big..." <- The good thing is there are alot of monero sellers where im from and good prices...luckily.
01:59:07 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Cake still having issues with apple and new app update?
09:24:32 <cockliuser[m]> <RavFX[m]> "Actually yeah, you can use xUSD...." <- > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> Actually yeah, you can use xUSD.
09:24:32 <cockliuser[m]> > Hope singularity don't execute
09:24:32 <cockliuser[m]> Isn't xusd dead
10:47:38 <k4r4b3y[m]> <playmate7782[m]> "> <@gfdshygti53:monero.social..." <- > <@playmate7782:matrix.org>... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/b172df3dcc84d92ed4b93f80dffd4ebfb55a74a5>)
10:48:40 <k4r4b3y[m]> if some actor more powerful than you can confiscate your "muh hardmoney" either at gunpoint or at "law-point" (aka, courts, etc.) then you have "fuck all money".
10:49:51 <k4r4b3y[m]> btc'ers loove larping as if its 19th century.
10:50:34 <k4r4b3y[m]> the terrain has changed A LOT. Today, the govt overreach to your "muh freedoms" are unprecedented. They can invent various bullshit reasons for confiscating your property, and coerce you to part ways with it.
10:51:28 <k4r4b3y[m]> today the electronic surveillance techniques have matured to such a degree that was nowhere near possible in 19th century (le belle epoch for the branch-saifedeans)
11:29:46 <playmate7782[m]> <k4r4b3y[m]> "> <@playmate7782:matrix.org>..." <- > <@k4r4b3y:karapara.net> > <@playmate7782:matrix.org>... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/601009b05d333277b866bfdc3777d9be6030bb80>)
11:29:56 <playmate7782[m]> <k4r4b3y[m]> "if some actor more powerful than..." <- > <@k4r4b3y:karapara.net> if some actor more powerful than you can confiscate your "muh hardmoney" either at gunpoint or at "law-point" (aka, courts, etc.) then you have "fuck all money".
11:29:56 <playmate7782[m]> > 
11:29:56 <playmate7782[m]> true
11:30:11 <playmate7782[m]> <k4r4b3y[m]> "the terrain has changed A LOT..." <- > <@k4r4b3y:karapara.net> the terrain has changed A LOT. Today, the govt overreach to your "muh freedoms" are unprecedented. They can invent various bullshit reasons for confiscating your property, and coerce you to part ways with it.
11:30:11 <playmate7782[m]> > 
11:30:11 <playmate7782[m]> agree with this
11:37:39 <playmate7782[m]> I need to understand monero in detail first. am comparing with bitcoin. it took almost 5 years for me to understand btc on technical level.
11:37:39 <playmate7782[m]> eg hashing, blocksize war i.e btc vs bcash etc etc.
11:37:39 <playmate7782[m]> I need to understand monero in detail. people opposing increasing blocksize in btc were pro decentralization. so need to know how monero solves same problem. whats the max transaction per second in monero. eventually if more people use monero will it have same problem like btc i.e high fees, lag in transaction. 
11:41:00 <Rucknium[m]> playmate7782: If you don't want on chain scaling, Monero is not for you. Monero's design goal is to scale on chain. It has a dynamic block size limit.
11:41:11 <playmate7782[m]> also still have to fig out why monero dont havr upper limit like btc. what if tomorrow some one launch fork or monero or new crypto with better privacy and scalability. and what if bitcoin community solves privacy issue. it is code  can bitcoin guys make bitcoin like monero in future. cryptographers can come up with some thing new making btc, monero etc outdated. 
11:41:11 <playmate7782[m]> have lot of question like how zcash is diff than monero.
11:41:11 <playmate7782[m]> I got background in economic
11:41:28 <playmate7782[m]> so its hard for me to decide which is best crypto reading white paper
11:41:46 <playmate7782[m]> same is problem with 99.99% people
11:42:13 <playmate7782[m]> I am open minded. dont worship one thing
11:42:56 <Rucknium[m]> The Cryptonote 2.0 white paper is outdated. It doesn't have RingCT or many other improvements to Monero over the years.
11:42:59 <playmate7782[m]> I believe people like andreas, james lopp are honest when it comes to bitcoin.
11:43:30 <playmate7782[m]> Rucknium[m]: now I have come across many feeds that dynamic blocksize is bad
11:43:39 <playmate7782[m]> it leads to less decentralization
11:44:23 <playmate7782[m]> is any youtubers or blogger who talks about monero
11:44:29 <k4r4b3y[m]> playmate7782[m]: It doesn't really
11:44:30 <playmate7782[m]> educate about monero??
11:44:37 <k4r4b3y[m]> playmate7782[m]: Yeah
11:44:40 <k4r4b3y[m]> Check out monero matteo
11:44:46 <playmate7782[m]> ok
11:45:01 <k4r4b3y[m]> Check out MoneroTalk
11:45:08 <playmate7782[m]> thing is too many youtubers. and many are not honest
11:45:15 <k4r4b3y[m]> playmate7782[m]: Yes
11:45:17 <playmate7782[m]> I follow monero talk on twitter
11:45:27 <playmate7782[m]> often listen them when they are live
11:45:31 <k4r4b3y[m]> Especially the ones who attack monero with BS claims
11:45:34 <Rucknium[m]> Monterotopia/MoneroTalk, Monero Magazine, Monero Matteo(?), MoneroKon presentations.
11:45:52 <k4r4b3y[m]> Check out Luke Smith's Monero related videos
11:46:44 * playmate7782[m] uploaded an image: (105KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/yibZiXNoFjuRwjDoHwORpSaX/Screenshot_20230614-171635.png >
11:46:49 <playmate7782[m]> this one right?
11:47:19 <k4r4b3y[m]> playmate7782[m]: Wait I will send like
11:47:21 <k4r4b3y[m]> Link
11:47:38 <Rucknium[m]> If you want more reliable info, read Mastering Monero and Zero to Monero like you said you would
11:47:38 <k4r4b3y[m]> This: https://piped.video/channel/UCn1P2pBjXNz2QL-Y9MuhXlg
11:47:59 * playmate7782[m] uploaded an image: (132KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/rQvlBgfIVgKYJFTgkwavcLnL/Screenshot_20230614-171751.png >
11:48:04 <k4r4b3y[m]> Check out Monero Matteo's most recent video
11:48:10 <Rucknium[m]> The written word, with citations and math, is more reliable than videos
11:48:17 <playmate7782[m]> problem with pipe is cant watch live feed
11:48:29 <playmate7782[m]> dont know if thats fixed
11:48:46 <k4r4b3y[m]> Rucknium[m]: Sure. But videos/audios with basic explanations are more reachable for the general people
11:48:57 <k4r4b3y[m]> playmate7782[m]: I think it is fixed
11:49:05 <k4r4b3y[m]> Download LibreTube on fdroid
11:49:09 <k4r4b3y[m]> It is great
11:49:18 <playmate7782[m]> I am using GOS
11:49:24 <k4r4b3y[m]> playmate7782[m]: Based
11:49:25 <playmate7782[m]> have fdroid
11:49:31 <k4r4b3y[m]> playmate7782[m]: Perfect
11:49:31 <Rucknium[m]> playmate7782 complained that youtube videos are unreliable
11:49:36 <playmate7782[m]> but many apps not updated
11:49:38 <k4r4b3y[m]> Just download LibreTube
11:51:07 <k4r4b3y[m]> Also be on the lookout for MoneroTopia '23 videos that should be released soon. Also be on the lookout for the MoneroKon '23 talks
11:51:19 <k4r4b3y[m]> They should be top-notch for learning about monero
11:54:59 <playmate7782[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "playmate7782 complained that..." <- because many youtubers are biased and into pump and dump
11:55:27 <Rucknium[m]> Yes, so read the books
11:57:40 <playmate7782[m]> started with mastering monero
11:58:04 <playmate7782[m]> reliable youtube channel for updated info
11:58:10 <playmate7782[m]> books are not updated
19:28:01 <playmate7782[m]> on the side note have question how is bitcoin address generated on bitcoin blockchain wallet diff than stealth add in monero
19:32:36 <jeffro256[m]> As a receiver in Bitcoin, you hash one public key and send it to the sender. On the blockchain, the "recipient" is that hash. With Monero, as a receiver, you generate 2 public keys (view & spend) and send them to the sender. The sender does some math to calculate a new unique public key which you know the private key to called a "one time address". This is the public key which shows up on-chain. This way, in Monero, no 2 txs share the
19:32:36 <jeffro256[m]> same recipient 
19:33:28 <jeffro256[m]> You actually can technically double up and send to the same address twice, but it can only be spent from once ... but that's just an edge case you don't have to worry about 
19:33:34 <playmate7782[m]> am looking at that diagram on the book
19:33:48 <playmate7782[m]> so was wondering sender knows by wallet
19:34:14 <playmate7782[m]> sender see my public key. and generate stealth address
19:34:56 <playmate7782[m]> but as every time new add is generated they cannot link my other one time add on blockchain right?
19:38:59 <jeffro256[m]> Yes, even if you send to the same Monero address ("4/8......."), the one time addresses that appear on chain have no correlation with one another 
19:40:57 <playmate7782[m]> ok cool I though if I send same one stealth add for more than one transaction. all transaction will be linked
19:43:10 <playmate7782[m]> wait diagram says sender generates stealth add
19:43:18 <jeffro256[m]> Well you don't normally see "stealth addresses" as a user, you see Monero addresses. (which is why "address" is a terrible term for this thing, users don't provide "stealth addresses" to each, they are created when constructing transactions).
19:44:23 <jeffro256[m]> If you wrote custom wallet code, you could construct two transactions with the same on-chain one-time public key / "stealth address", but this doesn't happen with normal wallets, especially since you can only spend from a unique one-time public key once  
19:44:25 <playmate7782[m]> stealth address is generated with some hashing algorithm on receivers base wallet right?
19:45:35 <jeffro256[m]> Yes sender *generates* stealth address (the wallet code does it), but you wouldn't, as an end user, "send" to one-time public key ("stealth address". You "send" money to Monero addresses 
19:46:12 <jeffro256[m]> If you send to a Monero address multiple times, your wallet will generate multiple unique one-time public keys ("stealth addresses") for you 
19:48:39 <jeffro256[m]> The thing you copy and send to your friend who owes you money is a Monero address, one-time public keys ("stealth addresses") are limited to one transaction and never get used again
19:50:04 <playmate7782[m]> so if accidentally my friend use old(used) stealth add, what happen?? error occur?
19:50:36 <playmate7782[m]> ok got it. everything happen in background
19:50:50 <playmate7782[m]> I was comparing with bitcoim
19:51:01 <jeffro256[m]> Your friend wouldn't use an old stealth address, they are freshly generated by the wallet code every time it makes a tx 
19:51:16 <playmate7782[m]> I dont have to send new receiving add  for every transaction
19:51:26 <playmate7782[m]> its done automatically by wallet
19:52:12 <jeffro256[m]> Your friend does not have the ability (unless they write their own source code) to specify which one-time public key ("stealth address") shows up in their transaction 
19:52:52 <jeffro256[m]> Yes, its done automatically by the wallet which is why I hate the term "stealth address" because it isn't an address and it makes it confusing for newcomers 
19:53:41 <playmate7782[m]> ONE TIME HASH would be better
19:54:03 <playmate7782[m]> or simply stealth(without add)
19:54:31 <jeffro256[m]> Well it's not a hash its a public key 
19:54:43 <playmate7782[m]> its basically one time text used for adding on blockchain
19:54:59 <playmate7782[m]> sorry public key
19:55:22 <jeffro256[m]> Part of the public key scalar are calculated using hashes, but the result is a public key of which the recipient knows the corresponding private key 
19:55:46 <jeffro256[m]> And the same pubkey can never be spent more than once 
19:56:11 <jeffro256[m]> Hence the "one-time" part of the name 
19:57:00 <playmate7782[m]> basically 1) one private key 2) public key i.e add and 3) public key for each transaction which will be added on blockchain? 
19:57:33 <playmate7782[m]> right? 
19:58:11 <jeffro256[m]> No private keys show up on the blockchain
19:58:43 <jeffro256[m]> The public keys are just calculated in such a way that the recipient can know the corresponding private key to "their" received public keys 
19:59:02 <playmate7782[m]> public key is seed words?
19:59:15 <playmate7782[m]> s/public/private/
19:59:28 <jeffro256[m]> There's 1 tx public key for the whole transaction and one public key per recipient in a transaction 
19:59:45 <jeffro256[m]> The private keys are derived from the seed, yes 
20:00:12 <playmate7782[m]> addres starting with 4 is my public key?
20:00:32 <playmate7782[m]> and add starting with 8 one time public key for blockchain?
20:00:55 <playmate7782[m]> or thats totally diff from public key
20:02:11 <jeffro256[m]> The address starting with a 4 or an 8 is your "Monero address" and contains 3 parts: the public view key, the public spend key, and a checksum (to prevent errors while copying the address)
20:03:04 <playmate7782[m]> and How to verify/link transaction ID with payment received? wallet does that or have to copy paste on terminal and calculate hash?
20:03:19 <jeffro256[m]> If your Monero address starts with a 4, it's a "primary address" and if it starts with an 8, it's a "sub-address". They're just different address types like in Bitcoin ("1...." vs "3...." vs "btc1....")
20:04:56 <playmate7782[m]> public view key and public spend key is bit new concept for me. 
20:04:56 <playmate7782[m]> seems bit too technical 
20:05:16 <jeffro256[m]> The wallet will do it automatically by trying to basically (I'm oversimplifying) redoing the calculation that the sender will perform to create the one-time public key, and if the result matches with what's in the transaction, then a receiver wallet knows that that transaction is for them
20:05:42 <playmate7782[m]> bitcoin we got public key and private key. its key pair. private key is to spend/verify transaction
20:06:34 <playmate7782[m]> name PUBLIC SPEND KEY is confusing
20:07:02 <jeffro256[m]> In Monero there are 2 key pairs: view and spend. If you're a receiver, you need the private view key to view incoming transactions, and the private spend key to actually spend 
20:07:26 <playmate7782[m]> oh k so total 4 keys
20:08:07 <playmate7782[m]> I think this was not their in 2016
20:08:34 <playmate7782[m]> because of this update genesis mining had halted payouts
20:09:01 <jeffro256[m]> So in total for Monero: (private view key, public view key) & (private spend key, public spend key). The receiver knows all 4, the sender only knows public spend key and public view key 
20:09:03 <jeffro256[m]> 2016 in Monero?
20:09:25 <playmate7782[m]> may be 2017
20:09:44 <playmate7782[m]> I had purchase 5000 tera hash on geneisis-mining
20:09:57 <playmate7782[m]> thats was only bitcoin
20:10:09 <playmate7782[m]> had purchased 2 years monero mining contract
20:10:31 <playmate7782[m]> and they stopped monero mining payout for months
20:10:55 <jeffro256[m]> AFAIK there has always been both view/spend keys since the inception of the Cryptonote protocol even before Monero
20:11:08 <playmate7782[m]> I dont remember exactly but Monero miningbI spend 50k usd 
20:11:56 <jeffro256[m]> They might've stopped the mining because if the PoW change in 2018
20:12:09 <playmate7782[m]> genesis guys told me it was not their fault
20:12:25 <jeffro256[m]> It switched to Cryptonight variant 1 in 2018
20:12:44 <playmate7782[m]> they used ASIC only for bitcoin. mostly they did on GPU
20:13:02 <playmate7782[m]> they invited me to iceland mining location for tour also
20:13:28 <playmate7782[m]> but had very bad experience with monero
20:13:40 <playmate7782[m]> they stopped monero payouts of everyone
20:14:11 <playmate7782[m]> so frustrated I converted monero to bitcoin
20:14:36 <playmate7782[m]> also I was using free wallet
20:14:56 <playmate7782[m]> they are outnof bness I guess
20:15:21 <jeffro256[m]> RIP never use online wallet they will rug pull you 100% of the time
20:15:25 <playmate7782[m]> they also froze my altcoims
20:15:37 <Rucknium[m]> Free Wallet is a known scam wallet.
20:15:44 <playmate7782[m]> yup 
20:16:07 <playmate7782[m]> luckily I pulled out most of amount
20:16:19 <jeffro256[m]> That sucks ...
20:16:32 <playmate7782[m]> it was early days. and did not have much monero wallet
20:16:38 <Rucknium[m]> Monero has tried to prevent ASICs from being used to mine XMR. Maybe the mmining company, if it was not just a scam, bought many Monero ASICs. Then they became useless when Monero conquered ASICs.
20:17:34 <playmate7782[m]> I put almost 10 million USD on behalf of my clients
20:17:47 <playmate7782[m]> people thought I scammed them
20:18:07 <playmate7782[m]> i means 10 million usd in mininf
20:19:02 <playmate7782[m]> lot of people lost money. post 2017 crash
20:19:45 <playmate7782[m]> learned hard way never manage money for others
20:21:24 <playmate7782[m]> so basically I can import public view key in mobile wallets?
20:22:09 <playmate7782[m]> no worry about mobile being seized by Gov/tax guys etc
20:23:23 <jeffro256[m]> If you're managing anything over $10K you should get a hardware wallet thats crazy 
20:24:07 <jeffro256[m]> And yes if you're gonna carry a device around definitely make it a "view-only wallet"
20:24:43 <playmate7782[m]> cannot buy. custom department seizes hardware wallets in India
20:25:01 <playmate7782[m]> need some one to buy and fly inside 
20:26:21 <playmate7782[m]> I ordered btc hardware wallet 4 years ago
20:26:40 <playmate7782[m]> it shipped to India but was impounded 
20:26:43 <merope> You can use any old computer as a cold wallet, just remove any internet connectivity
20:26:53 <merope> Even a raspberry pi
20:26:56 <playmate7782[m]> merope: I bought raspberry pi
20:27:34 <playmate7782[m]> but before doing anything. want to make sure I know what am I doing
20:28:23 <jeffro256[m]> Once you get the full wallet on the raspberry pi, here's a guide on how to make a view only wallet from the full wallet:
20:28:24 <jeffro256[m]> https://www.getmonero.org/resources/user-guides/view_only.html
20:30:27 <merope> Honestly you don't really need to know much about all this one-time-pubkey stuff for regular usage, it's all handled under the hood. All you need to do is give your friend one of your addresses (like 888tNkZrPN6JsEgekjMnABU4TBzc2Dt29EPAvkRxbANsAnjyPbb3iQ1YBRk1UXcdRsiKc9dhwMVgN5S9cQUiyoogDavup3H) and they will send monero to it, and your wallet will scan the chain and find the incoming transaction - same as in Bitcoin
20:32:38 <playmate7782[m]> merope: I need to know. their are two many crypto. also many privacy related crypto. why choose monero compared eg zcash or something else
20:33:37 <playmate7782[m]> whats stopping bitcoin developers to make bitcoin like monero with some fork or update
20:34:15 <merope> Nothing but their willingness to do it. And they have repeatedly shown that they're not willing to make the changes necessary
20:34:39 <playmate7782[m]> I own western union , money gram franchise. have introduced almost 1000 people to bitcoin. 
20:35:04 <playmate7782[m]> now if I want them to trade in monero they gonna ask me lot of question
20:35:14 <playmate7782[m]> I do currency exchange 
20:35:36 <jeffro256[m]> There's no chance in hell that Bitcoin devs will ever allow base layer amount hiding which is why Monero ring anonymity can be so much better at a theoretical level than Coinjoin
20:35:37 <playmate7782[m]> my clients/customers are mostly old dudes with lot of money
20:35:53 <playmate7782[m]> they want to do international payments outside banking
20:36:17 <merope> You could start with the fact that BTC will not last more than 20-30 years with the current setup. After that, either everybody will have to willingly pay insane tx fees, or the BTC mining network will start losing hashrate and it will get worse with every halving
20:36:46 <playmate7782[m]> merope: this is what monero folks are saying. 
20:37:01 <playmate7782[m]> bitcoin folks are countering with lightning
20:37:28 <playmate7782[m]> I need to understand myself every nut bolts and make decision
20:37:35 <merope> That's what math is saying. Without a tail emission and a 1MB blocksize, either users start paying massive fees on the base layer, or the mining incentive will start to drop
20:37:57 <merope> Lightning is layer 2. Can't have a layer 2 if your layer 1 goes down in flames
20:38:25 <playmate7782[m]> merope: but if hardware quality  increases , 20 years from now blocksize of bitcoin can be 100 mb
20:38:31 <merope> (I'm writing a paper on that, hopefully gonna publish it soon ™️)
20:38:36 <playmate7782[m]> atleast same as bcash
20:38:53 <playmate7782[m]> merope: their twitter acc MONERO TIME
20:39:07 <playmate7782[m]> he tried to explain but did not understand fully
20:39:11 <merope> playmate7782[m]: And how willing are you to bet that they will actually increase the blocksize? Something that they were meant to do a long time ago already?
20:39:41 <merope> Besides, that would just push the problem further down the line, but would not solve it
20:39:44 <Rucknium[m]> playmate7782: I can't understand your reasoning. You sided with the 1MB small blockers in 2017 but you want BTC to have 100MB blocks in the future?
20:39:52 <playmate7782[m]> merope: whole argument was running full node on old laptop or cheap hardware
20:40:33 <jeffro256[m]> Lightning doesn't fix fundamental problem with base layer fungability or scalability. Also there is nothing stopping Monero from adopting a layer 2 or completely ripping lightning right now. The reason it isn't done is because layer 1 on Monero isn't crippled
20:40:34 <Rucknium[m]> BTC is not going to increase the block size. It already happened in 2017.
20:40:34 <playmate7782[m]> 20 years from now avrg hardware people usong will be much better. compare iphone of 2007 with today
20:40:45 <k4r4b3y[m]> <playmate7782[m]> "whats stopping bitcoin developer..." <- Lol never gonna happen
20:40:58 <k4r4b3y[m]> You say you are an old timer OG, so you should know that already
20:41:16 <merope> You'd still need enough L1 transactions to keep paying those fees, otherwise the mining incentive goes down again and you're still in trouble
20:41:25 <RavFX> Bitcoiners panic when they ear the "fork" word
20:42:01 <merope> The only way to fix it is basically tail emission
20:42:05 <merope> (Like Monero has already been doing for over a year)
20:42:16 <jeffro256[m]> It's basically the eighth deadly sin at this point for a BTC maxi to suggest a hard fork 
20:42:32 <RavFX> imajin the amount of fork required to update bitcoin for a privacy money, Assuming it will have to be fixed many time in the futur (like it did with Monero)... Many forks :D
20:42:34 <playmate7782[m]> Rucknium[m]: am saying if future hqrdware i.e 15/20 years from now is cheaper and better, those who were opposing increased block size might not oppose it in future
20:43:48 <playmate7782[m]> personally I think they wont increase block size. they want to do off chain with lightning
20:44:20 <playmate7782[m]> but many things changes. 20 year is too long time
20:44:23 <Rucknium[m]> Compare 2010 hardware with 2017. IIRC Satoshi set the 1MB limit in 2010. The 2010's was a time of major hardware advancements. The small blockers couldn't even compromise on 2MB in 2017
20:44:39 <jeffro256[m]> merope: If I could go back and change one thing about Monero that didn't require future knowledge of cryptography or unhuman levels of foresight, it would be to make Monero's emission curve less steep. IMO there was too much XMR emitted the first couple years of its existence. Other cryptos, like BTC, didn't make it so incredibly advantageous for early adopters 
20:44:39 <merope> The bigger the blocksize, the lower they can set the tail emission
20:44:40 <Rucknium[m]> There is no indication that anything will be different, politically, in a decade or more.
20:45:47 <merope> jeffro256[m]: Agreed. Hell, I suspect it might make sense to set a higher tail emission *today*, just to get extra hashrate
20:46:01 <playmate7782[m]> <jeffro256[m]> "Lightning doesn't fix fundamenta..." <- yup. but many see dynamic block size as cripple
20:46:05 <merope> But predicting the impact of such a change on future price is basically anybody's guess
20:46:36 <merope> playmate7782[m]: Because they don't understand how it works, and they thing anyone can just spam 1GB blocks overnight
20:46:50 <merope> *think
20:46:53 <playmate7782[m]> hmm
20:47:27 <merope> It's dynamic, but there are constraints
20:47:45 <Rucknium[m]> Many smart people see 1MB block size as cripple
20:47:52 <k4r4b3y[m]> jeffro256[m]: I raised this point the other day. Cc: @ofrnxmr:monero.social
20:48:12 <playmate7782[m]> but I dont believe that they are dumb. all of them eg pro bcash or anti bcash all understands cryptography, encryption, coding
20:48:24 <playmate7782[m]> eg Adam back is pro btc
20:48:33 <playmate7782[m]> they might be biased
20:48:44 <merope> It's not about intelligence, it's about willingness to accept change
20:48:59 <playmate7782[m]> dont see they are dumb or dont understand monero
20:49:25 <merope> They don't want to change things (for whatever reason), so any argument you will bring will get rejected outright
20:49:35 <playmate7782[m]> merope: may be they are afraid if they abandon bitcoin, whole crypto will crash
20:49:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> Satoshi has 10% of supply, isnt btc a terrible example
20:49:56 <RavFX> ^this
20:49:57 <playmate7782[m]> something better than monero can be invented
20:50:14 <playmate7782[m]> and than if every one jump to new coim
20:50:24 <jeffro256[m]> playmate7782[m]: There's definitely a happy medium somewhere. For example, ETH/Solana bandwidth is enormous, so much so that it makes it impossible for people to run nodes on consumer hardware. But the BTC community refuses to ever increase the block flow rate, not even to 2 MB/10 minutes, and it has become ingrained as a personal principle amongst BTC maxis that this limit is never going to increase. And I think we can agree here,
20:50:24 <jeffro256[m]> without the political blinders, 2 MB / 10 minutes of bandwidth is not enough to run an entire international monetary system on, and putting the limit this low is unnecessarily conservative 
20:50:24 <Rucknium[m]> Smart people can disagree. What is surprising about that?
20:50:38 <playmate7782[m]> cryptocurrency wont have adoption. thats what they are thinking
20:50:43 <merope> if something better than Monero will be invented, Monero will be the first in line to adopt those changes
20:50:53 <k4r4b3y[m]> playmate7782[m]: Dynamic blocksize is a cripple? If anything is a "cripple" it is the 1 MB blocl size limit.
20:51:33 <RavFX[m]> RavFX: Ignore that, bridge lag
20:51:48 <playmate7782[m]> jeffro256[m]: even Maxis agree. and they want digital gold. not digital cash.
20:51:48 <playmate7782[m]> thats one of argument I heard
20:51:51 <Rucknium[m]> "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair
20:52:12 <playmate7782[m]> k4r4b3y[m]: yup. thats also way to look at it
20:52:37 <ofrnxmr[m]> Maxis done want digital gold, %hat was 2022
20:52:41 <merope> playmate7782[m]: > <@playmate7782:matrix.org> even Maxis agree. and they want digital gold. not digital cash.... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/e838818ffc586fe49632d6e9ad3dcc49fd2e9f3e>)
20:52:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Now they want custodial l3
20:53:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not even joking
20:53:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> L1 is just for nft security budgrt now
20:53:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> L2 isnt feasible
20:53:29 <k4r4b3y[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: The absolute state of it..
20:53:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> L3 is where its at and being shilled by maxis
20:53:51 <Rucknium[m]> Monero has a long history of adopting improvements even when "Monero" did not invent it. For example, Dandelion++ was designed for bitcoin. Monero has it. Bitcoin doesn't. Confidential transactions, too. Monero improved them with RingCT.
20:54:25 <playmate7782[m]> but ordinary folks who dont understand encryption, coding, etc etc  they will buy what people lik saylor say. 
20:54:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> And they went from "noooooo!!" To "this was always the plan. Satoshi intended this"
20:55:10 <playmate7782[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: thats for mass adoption I guess. for old dudes or pensiom funds
20:55:19 <k4r4b3y[m]> playmate7782[m]: > <@playmate7782:matrix.org> but ordinary folks who dont understand encryption, coding, etc etc  they will buy what people lik saylor say. 
20:55:20 <k4r4b3y[m]> > 
20:55:20 <k4r4b3y[m]> So? What is your point? You wanna catch the next pump n dump? I heard PregnantElonInuPepe isnthe next  one.
20:55:31 <RavFX[m]> Satoshi wanted to continue to let the blocks grow, as needed...
20:55:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Didntbsatoshi make a wallet
20:55:47 <k4r4b3y[m]> RavFX[m]: Facts
20:55:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> Called wallet of satoshi 🤡 maxis
20:56:07 <playmate7782[m]> if USA make bitcoin legal tender along with USD, USA can make fiat currency of most  african nation and many south americam and asian countries worthless
20:56:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Such a slap in the face to their idol
20:56:21 <playmate7782[m]> they can use it as tool to counter BRICS
20:56:29 <merope> playmate7782[m]: Custodial crypto is a contradiction. Custodial = bank. The whole point of crypto was to replace banks
20:56:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> playmate7782[m]: btc doesnt even work for 500k peopke 
20:56:46 <cryptogrampy[m]> Can someone please help.  I'm concerned that people who hear this message are going to hurt themselves: https://twitter.com/udiWertheimer/status/1668821428144164865?s=20
20:56:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> 500k daily users*
20:57:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> merope: see!!! Fkn maxis are brainwashdd af
20:57:27 <RavFX[m]> The fact that you have to look at the network before sending a btc TX...
20:57:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its so strange
20:57:33 <k4r4b3y[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: Bitcoin is a death cult.
20:57:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its like real workd madd hysteria
20:57:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> Mass*
20:58:09 <playmate7782[m]> <merope> "> <@playmate7782:matrix.org..." <- yup. they have.incentive to sell and make it a ponzi scheme as they were early
20:58:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its a ponzi by nature of its inability to resch is stated goals
20:58:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> The only thing it can do is rug new comers
20:58:58 <Alex|LocalMonero> merope: The point is making government fiat money obsolete. Banks still have a place in a crypto-only world, just like they did in a gold-only world.
20:58:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> ... or hard fork
20:59:40 <k4r4b3y[m]> That's why they are crazy about getting people to buy btc, not "use" it, and certainly not concerned with noncustodial use."Just buy bro, let the ponzi go on"
21:00:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> I agree that there will always be custodial solutions (example being xmr loans)
21:00:03 <jeffro256[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: LMAO he could've just said "send it to a burn address" instead of "die with your keys"
21:00:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or banks who hold your keys and "insure" them
21:00:07 <RavFX[m]> "Banks" will have to stay if they want to keep bitcoin, for sure
21:00:16 <k4r4b3y[m]> jeffro256[m]: KEK SO TRUE
21:00:33 <playmate7782[m]> saylor and the other orange pilled guy who is in el salvador or mike maloney atleast taking people away from CBDC
21:00:34 <k4r4b3y[m]> BUT HE HAD TO SAY "DIE" LMAO
21:00:36 <k4r4b3y[m]> What a deranged bunch
21:01:13 <playmate7782[m]> I personally think Bitcoin vs monero vs zcash vs dash etc should take place only after making people ANTI FIAT
21:01:46 <playmate7782[m]> let free market in long run decide whats best
21:01:58 <someoneelse49549> No one is going to abandon fiat for nothing. The best methods is convince them that fiat can be replaced by something with greater advantages
21:02:01 <k4r4b3y[m]> playmate7782[m]: Bitmaxis are fiat maximalists. Don't expect them to turn against dollars all the while they value the usd ngu
21:02:07 <monerobull[m]> Free market already decided
21:02:10 <playmate7782[m]> if their is classical libertarian gov in USA their might not be crackdowns
21:02:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> Atleast?
21:02:45 <k4r4b3y[m]> playmate7782[m]: _Bro.. I..._
21:02:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> What in the world `re you talking about
21:02:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> Cbdc is far better that bitshitcoin
21:03:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yknow, it actually WORKS for 400m people and isnt already obsolete 
21:03:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> Bitcoin cant even handle california.
21:04:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> Heck, it cant handle a city of 100k peopke adopting it TODAY
21:04:28 <playmate7782[m]> k4r4b3y[m]: alwys hope and be positive 😀😄
21:04:46 <monerobull[m]> playmate7782[m]: That's called being naive 
21:05:02 <k4r4b3y[m]> playmate7782[m]: I agree but you are being positive about insane hopes
21:05:04 <playmate7782[m]> CBDC  will happen 100%
21:05:09 <monerobull[m]> Obviously 
21:05:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its already at max capacity 
21:05:28 <monerobull[m]> B b b but lightning 
21:05:33 <k4r4b3y[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Something something el salvador....
21:05:34 <someoneelse49549> in a way, if satoshi nakamato didn't invented bitcoin we would have seen CBDC arrive way later
21:05:43 <playmate7782[m]> world bank, wef, imf etc will punish countries who have paper cash and who dont share transaction with uncle sam
21:06:02 <monerobull[m]> playmate7782[m]: I think the eu will be first
21:06:21 <k4r4b3y[m]> monerobull[m]: They loove sucking up to the uncle sam
21:06:30 <someoneelse49549> monerobull[m]: yes. They're political influence and lack of technical knowledge will definitely accelerate this
21:06:38 <someoneelse49549> s/They're/Their/
21:06:48 <RavFX[m]> Canada might join the party relatively early too
21:06:48 <k4r4b3y[m]> k4r4b3y[m]: We must defend american interests!!
21:07:42 <monerobull[m]> Converting Germany will have to be done with force like in Nigeria or take at least 30 more years
21:08:05 <playmate7782[m]> European teens and younger generation are brainwashed and cucked as per my observation
21:08:21 <monerobull[m]> Untill the cash loving people get mostly replaced by apple pay zoomers
21:08:40 <playmate7782[m]> monerobull[m]: I see germany youngsters most brainwashed
21:08:46 <playmate7782[m]> have been to germany
21:08:59 <playmate7782[m]> they believe all the environmental BS
21:09:08 <monerobull[m]> playmate7782[m]: The trick is, the immigrants don't 😂
21:09:45 <playmate7782[m]> I always admirer American constitution and idea of America. about Freedom
21:10:00 <playmate7782[m]> now FREEDOM dont exist in west
21:10:13 <monerobull[m]> Can't have massive amounts of conservative people come in to somehow pay for the retiring boomers and also make them woke at the same time
21:10:31 <playmate7782[m]> and young people following BERNIE SANDERS and AOC is making me believe USA might be doomed
21:11:08 <k4r4b3y[m]> playmate7782[m]: Constitution is long dead bro. Nobody cares.
21:11:14 <playmate7782[m]> I am pro CAPITALIST. Many monero forks and anarchist confuse cryonyism with capitalism
21:11:30 <playmate7782[m]> k4r4b3y[m]: yup agree
21:12:34 <playmate7782[m]> s/forks/folks/
21:14:12 <playmate7782[m]> <monerobull[m]> "The trick is, the immigrants don..." <- politician will promise immigrants BS. They will promise them to let them bring more immigrants. also they will bring GRETA. they will say peper is bad for environment
21:14:35 <playmate7782[m]> they will eventually fuck immigrants
21:14:53 <playmate7782[m]> I was thinking to move to germany became their is no speed limit
21:15:08 <playmate7782[m]> I admire german automobile
21:15:13 <playmate7782[m]> love ducatis
21:15:30 <playmate7782[m]> now in name of environment they want to ban speed limit
21:16:11 <playmate7782[m]> s/became/because/
21:16:59 <merope> ...I think the conversation has derailed a little
21:17:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> My matrix lagging. Might have a bunch of msgs come thriugh randomly
21:17:37 <playmate7782[m]> yea.  was confused about two public address
21:17:43 <playmate7782[m]> now I got it
21:50:41 <highfive[m]> what about quantum safety
21:50:52 <highfive[m]> how do we protect our moneros against fucking magic
21:52:17 <RavFX[m]> highfive[m]: Part of monero is immune
21:52:17 <RavFX[m]> Other part, not.
21:53:01 <RavFX[m]> tying to relocate the research
21:56:23 <highfive[m]> RavFX[m]: > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> Part of monero is immune
21:56:23 <highfive[m]> > Other part, not.
21:56:23 <highfive[m]> what part is immune?
21:56:38 <RavFX[m]> Looking for the research paper
21:57:15 <RavFX[m]> but don't remember what or what.
21:57:15 <RavFX[m]> I think Random-X is okay. So they can't instamine block
21:57:32 <highfive[m]> i really wonder whether there even is any algorithm executable by classical computers which can orchestrate a safe scheme at all
21:57:35 <RavFX[m]> the looking for the keys stuff, or the nice table I did see before
21:58:37 <RavFX[m]> Problem is that yes you can make classical scheme that is quantum resistant.
21:58:38 <RavFX[m]> But it's a lot of time and research, and many of such algo are crackable easily using classical computing.
21:59:10 <highfive[m]> that just implies its also not quantum secure?
22:00:00 <RavFX[m]> "The signature scheme used in Monero EdDSA is vulnerable to quantum attack as it relies on the discrete logarithm problem. However Monero gains some resilience to quantum attack through the anonymity of its users as well as the amounts being transacted. Although the Bulletproof protocol used in Monero to achieve this obfuscation of transacted amounts is vulnerable to quantum attack, an attacker would be reliant on luck in order to select a
22:00:00 <RavFX[m]> transaction of significant value. Furthermore, due to a recent change in the consensus protocol implemented on Monero where RandomX was introduced, it would also have further resistance to quantum attacks attempting to perform a 51% attack utilizing Grover’s algorithm."
22:00:05 <RavFX[m]> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590005621000138
22:01:00 <highfive[m]> i barely understood deutsch-josza, need to freshen up on grover and all of those
22:01:40 <RavFX[m]> btw, scroll down on that document
22:03:06 <RavFX[m]> most coins have "high" risk, monero have "medium".
22:03:06 <RavFX[m]> It's a good start.
22:03:06 <RavFX[m]> And I think Seraphis will fix some of that if not all right?
22:05:58 <highfive[m]> The largest problem I probably have with Q is what kind of weapons you can make with it
22:07:28 <highfive[m]> das rite it was deutsch-josza, shor's, grover's
22:09:04 <boog900[m]> https://github.com/insight-decentralized-consensus-lab/post-quantum-monero/blob/master/writeups/nontechnical_abstract.MD
22:09:46 <boog900[m]> https://github.com/insight-decentralized-consensus-lab/post-quantum-monero/tree/master/writeups
23:30:16 <highfive[m]> what about we have AI generate a number of post-q encryption schemes and diversify accordingly, and then rely on safety through probability
23:30:23 <highfive[m]> * through probability that some of the schemes are safe
23:30:50 <highfive[m]> then the only surviving scheme is used to fork the chain and restore user funds