03:33:47 <Guest6> What’s the number of Monero users worldwide? Monero, being a privacy coin, operates differently from other coins. Specifically, there is no way to trace the number of wallets on the blockchain. However, this doesn't imply that we can't make an educated guess.
03:33:48 <Guest6> In this research, we sampled data from some of the most popular stable coins, including USDT, USDC, BUSD, DAI, and PAX. We extracted their on-chain statistics from Ethplorer and observed a pattern between the number of holders and the average daily transaction count. We argue that this pattern could be generalized to a wide range of coins,
03:33:48 <Guest6> especially those primarily functioning as a currency. We then use this pattern to estimate the number of Monero users worldwide, result in a range between 0.9 million to 1.4 million. Read PDF link for full content.
03:33:48 <Guest6> https://coral-jo-ann-63.tiiny.site/
04:32:02 * ceetee[m] posted a file: (146KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/BYZOmasundkLOqkuPjMvVBrn/Monero%20Holders%20Estimation%202023-07.pdf >
04:39:19 <Guest6> Monero Holders Estimation (2023-07)
04:39:19 <Guest6> https://dpaste.org/psYCF
05:43:25 <TrasherDK[m]> Being a math spaz, I'm guessing, estimated users is based on avg. transaction amount on a couple of public ledgers, or what?
10:32:41 <TheBasketWeaving> Who administers the monero.social homeserver
10:34:41 <plowsof11> they're around. is someone being naughty using that homeserver?
10:49:48 <hbs[m]> it does not seem to send emails upon registration 
10:50:13 <monerobull[m]> <Guest6> "https://dpaste.org/psYCF" <- i remember when someone estimated that there are like 250k monero users max
10:50:31 <naphtha[m]> hbs[m]: the server probably doesnt have rdns set up or is blocked by spamhaus
10:50:38 <naphtha[m]> solution is simple, stop using gmail or proton
10:51:24 <recanman[m]> Out of curiosity, what do you use?
10:52:30 <recanman[m]> Fortunately, the most sensitive accounts I have are of the importance of my GitHub account. So I just use ProtonMail for it. Unfortunately, my ISP blocks port 25 and 587 outbound so I cannot send emails.
10:55:07 <naphtha[m]> me? i host my own with docker-mailserver but disroot mail is good
10:55:20 <naphtha[m]> if you don't want to rent a vps
10:55:25 <recanman[m]>  * Fortunately, the most sensitive accounts I have are of the importance of my GitHub account. So I just use a singular ProtonMail email for each account that I have. Unfortunately, my ISP blocks port 25 and 587 outbound so I cannot send emails.
10:55:37 <recanman[m]> naphtha[m]: I'd rather have physical control.
10:55:50 <naphtha[m]> set up a vpn on the vps
10:55:52 <recanman[m]> naphtha[m]: Based
10:56:07 <naphtha[m]> so your mails arent stored on the vps but you can still port forward
10:56:11 <naphtha[m]> without having blocked ports
10:56:24 <recanman[m]> Like a relay?
10:56:30 <naphtha[m]> yes
10:56:56 <recanman[m]> I looked into the concept of an SMTP relay but I didn't want to have my emails going through some random company before they reach the destination.
10:57:12 <recanman[m]> But those are the official ones.
10:57:15 <recanman[m]> Never though of using a VPS.
10:57:17 <TheBasketWeaving> <plowsof11> "they're around. is someone being..." <- Someone wants to get in contact with them
10:57:23 <naphtha[m]> that's why i suggested running your own vpn
10:57:31 <naphtha[m]> so you don't even have to deal with relay software
10:58:02 <recanman[m]> Thank you very much.
10:58:05 <TheBasketWeaving> TheBasketWeaving: There is a room full of server admins that the admins of monero.chat should join. All the big servers share reports regarding spam and homeserver admins ask questions to eachother there
10:58:40 <TheBasketWeaving> I dont know what its about, i just saw the message there and figured id go and see who runs this and ask them to join
10:58:56 <TheBasketWeaving> Idk if postimg the room address would count as advertising, so i wont 
11:03:46 <recanman[m]> Unrelated note, your server localpart is awesome.
11:05:30 <TheBasketWeaving> recanman[m]: Thanks
11:22:12 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Gotta luv it when people go how do i get monero non kyc. Localmonero “ not good enough” go mine it then
11:22:28 <recanman[m]> Do people actually say that?
11:22:30 <naphtha[m]> lmao yeah
11:22:33 <recanman[m]> LocalMonero is pretty awesome.
11:23:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> DanrdarkIsnotthe: Also
11:23:03 <recanman[m]> I used KuCoin to get my first 0.1 xmr when I first started, and I've used LocalMonero for other stuff
11:23:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> When people complain about LM markup
11:23:38 <naphtha[m]> white people be like
11:23:40 <recanman[m]> Is it the 1% escrow fee?
11:23:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> .. its not a markup
11:24:01 <recanman[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: The market price
11:24:07 <recanman[m]> I just realized what you meant.
11:24:08 <recanman[m]> kek
11:24:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> recanman[m]: no. Just me selling 10/% over "spot"
11:24:12 <naphtha[m]> its not a markup its a service fee
11:24:13 <naphtha[m]> thats like saying
11:24:37 <naphtha[m]> the corner store is ripping you off because they're making profit
11:25:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> And walmart is selling at a loss, to put mompop out of biz
11:25:44 <naphtha[m]> or when people say coffee shops/bars are a scam because, AKSHUALLY, UMM, I COULD MAKE THE COFFEE MYSELF AT HOME FOR A FRACTION OF THE PRICE
11:25:54 <hbs[m]> <monerobull[m]> "i remember when someone estimate..." <- At 11:24Z today the number of users was at most 76455783 :-)
11:25:54 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> True
11:26:28 <monerobull[m]> hbs[m]: what?
11:26:28 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Fckn paying for a service
11:26:35 <recanman[m]> naphtha[m]: Scam? It is a business.
11:26:53 <naphtha[m]> obviously
11:27:09 <recanman[m]> Maybe you're exaggerating, they can still make it for a "fraction of the price", but the markup is convenience.
11:27:13 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Zero profit allowed
11:27:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> I have buy ads on LM above spot
11:27:24 <naphtha[m]> i'm not saying i say that i'm saying some people say that
11:27:29 <recanman[m]> I would think that people would know that 😅
11:27:32 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Lol
11:27:37 <recanman[m]> naphtha[m]: I understand.
11:27:45 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> 🤦‍♂️
11:28:15 <naphtha[m]> ive had this question in the back of my mind
11:28:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> Who sells to me? 
11:28:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> 1. People who want 100% of their reported value after fees
11:28:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> 2. LM buyers who buy 5-10% below spot
11:28:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> 3. Arbitragers from cex
11:28:17 <naphtha[m]> how the fuck
11:28:38 <naphtha[m]> does coingecko and other price providers calculate the value of monero
11:28:46 <naphtha[m]> they can't know how much xmr was sold in a day
11:28:51 <naphtha[m]> only the number of txs
11:28:56 <recanman[m]> That is one thing that I am not sure about.
11:29:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> naphtha[m]: They lie
11:29:08 <recanman[m]> The price is all manipulated I would assume
11:29:15 <recanman[m]> * would assume, but I don't know much.
11:29:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> i take whatever they say, and call their bluff
11:29:29 <naphtha[m]> interesting 🧐
11:29:29 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Send a group message out. Price today peeps
11:29:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Who sells to me?... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/0ae0a2520e788d2bb145b10f1034e76d24567ed1>)
11:30:05 <naphtha[m]> i think localmonero would be a much better source for the price but pretty much everyone selling there goes by the "official" "price"
11:30:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not me
11:30:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> I buy "official + x%"
11:30:32 <recanman[m]> naphtha[m]: LocalMonero takes from a bunch of exchanges
11:30:36 <recanman[m]> localmonero.co/statistics
11:30:47 <recanman[m]> It is almost at $200
11:30:56 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Moon?
11:30:58 <recanman[m]> [localmonero.co](localmonero.com)
11:31:03 <naphtha[m]> i don't mean the dynamic price localmonero offers
11:31:12 <naphtha[m]> i mean the hypothetical market value
11:31:18 <naphtha[m]> when there is no authority as to what the value is
11:32:07 <recanman[m]> Not sure
11:32:07 <naphtha[m]> like with the second hand market
11:32:07 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Get a dart board and throw a dart
11:32:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> my authority 
11:32:08 <recanman[m]> Unrelated question, do you use a VPS as a proxy to all of your traffic in order not to expose your IP on DNS?
11:32:08 <naphtha[m]> recanman[m]: nope
11:32:08 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Thats the price
11:32:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> I have an ad (hidden) at "REAL PRICE"
11:32:12 <naphtha[m]> its the real ip of the server
11:32:18 <naphtha[m]> for now
11:32:30 <naphtha[m]> as i haven't had any problems with ddos attacks or anything like that
11:32:35 <recanman[m]> I've had my domain for a year now, and I have it on Cloudflare + Lets Encrypt, but I just realized that my IP is exposed. I don't think it is too bad but I wanted to fix it, since the domain name has my family name in it.
11:32:42 <naphtha[m]> if that does happen i will self host a WAF
11:32:46 <recanman[m]> Cloudflare wants me to pay the (((business plan))) so I can upload my own tls cert
11:32:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> real price is max of btc cap/supply*xmr supply, vs btc + 5%
11:33:01 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Oo
11:33:04 <naphtha[m]> it doesnt matter if you upload your own cert
11:33:07 <hbs[m]> <monerobull[m]> "what?" <- That's the number of outputs if I am not mistaken
11:33:08 <naphtha[m]> cloudflare will mitm anyways
11:33:19 <recanman[m]> recanman[m]: My family name is very common so it is not a problem, but just in case my family is the only one in the area.
11:33:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> s/supply/btcsupply/, s/xmr supply/xmrsupply/
11:33:29 <recanman[m]> naphtha[m]: I know, protecting from common people
11:33:31 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Yeah proxying
11:33:34 <recanman[m]> s/common/anyone/, s/people/else./
11:33:48 <naphtha[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: that kinda makes sense actually
11:33:57 <naphtha[m]> but
11:33:59 <naphtha[m]> what supply?
11:34:02 <naphtha[m]> no one knows the supply
11:34:12 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> And i think cloudflare only allows full tls with there certs?
11:34:13 <naphtha[m]> all we have is estimations
11:34:33 <recanman[m]> DanrdarkIsnotthe: If you pay the business plan, you can do more.
11:34:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> naphtha[m]: 18.4 vs 19.1 or whstevrr
11:34:39 <naphtha[m]> recanman[m]: no one else can mitm
11:34:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> xmr vs btc
11:34:45 <naphtha[m]> only cloudflare can
11:34:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> naphtha[m]: The total emission is definitely known
11:34:57 <recanman[m]> Sorry, I meant anyone else having the IP address
11:35:25 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Cloudflare lets you proxy to hide ip
11:35:30 <naphtha[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: actually yeah youre right im retarded
11:35:44 <naphtha[m]> recanman[m]: yeah cloudflare will do that
11:35:47 <naphtha[m]> but it isnt really worth it
11:36:11 <naphtha[m]> if you serve anything more than static sites
11:36:23 <bridgerton[m]> <dezun> naptha I hate your pfp it disgusts the fuck out of me
11:36:28 <recanman[m]> This situation:
11:36:28 <recanman[m]> Say my last name is smith. I live in a specific city in Colorado. I register smith.com, and I host my stuff on it.
11:36:28 <recanman[m]> Say someone wants to get information about me. They look up my last name, but it is very common. They come across smith.com, and the IP address location is in that city. That gives them more information.
11:36:42 <naphtha[m]> bridgerton[m]: you need to listen to some chief keef
11:36:46 <recanman[m]> naphtha[m]: I serve many things
11:36:55 <recanman[m]> naphtha[m]: Who is that?
11:36:58 <plowsof11> the search for the money printer https://www.moneroinflation.com/
11:37:06 <recanman[m]> Oh, a rapper!
11:37:08 <recanman[m]>  * Oh, a rapper.
11:37:11 <recanman[m]> s/!/. Disgusting./
11:37:49 <naphtha[m]> they like damn sosa where you fit that cash in
11:37:50 <naphtha[m]> https://youtu.be/Ym4NzmkGdz8
11:37:56 <naphtha[m]> chief keef isnt a rapper
11:38:04 <naphtha[m]> hes the 21st century mozart
11:38:31 <recanman[m]> I'm going to assume the songs are about money, women, drugs, and crime?
11:38:36 <plowsof11> romanian underground rappers -> #monero-offtopic:monero.social 
11:38:39 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Bitch and hoes?
11:38:44 <monerobull[m]> plowsof11: the inflation workshop at monerokon had tons of slides filled from top to bottom with math
11:38:51 <monerobull[m]> i now have more faith
11:39:10 <naphtha[m]> chief keef isnt romanian brah
11:39:23 <naphtha[m]> recanman[m]: what are the songs you like to listen to about?
11:40:32 <plowsof11> naphtha: #monero-offtopic:monero.social 
11:41:09 <naphtha[m]> fine fine
11:41:15 <naphtha[m]> damn hater
11:43:36 <louissignet[m]> Is it me or Monero no longer appears as an option in sideshift?
11:44:47 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Business wallet rip
11:45:02 <plowsof11> lol cant see it here https://sideshift.ai/
11:45:48 <naphtha[m]> fuck is this supposed to mean
11:45:50 <plowsof11> assuming maintenance of xmr @ sideshift anhdres 
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11:47:15 <anhdres[m]> plowsof11: we noticed it two days ago. working on an alternative. not a fan of them lately tbh
11:47:32 <anhdres[m]> we had no prior notice
11:47:41 <louissignet[m]> any recommedentation on a working alternative?
11:47:43 <bridgerton[m]> <dezun> UHhhh I think its a reference to the javascript vulnerability in TOR maybe i dunno
11:47:51 <louissignet[m]> I'm usually swapping ln for xmr
11:48:29 <anhdres[m]> louissignet[m]: https://kycnot.me/ is a very good as a guide
11:48:35 <louissignet[m]> thnx
11:48:39 <louissignet[m]> bridgerton[m]: ?
11:49:50 <anhdres[m]> https://trocador.app/ is another alternative, they aggregate exchanges and insure your trade on most cases
11:50:51 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Surprise where not accepting your coin!
11:52:49 <plowsof11> i just sent an email to kycnot about sideshift #snitch 
11:56:12 * naphtha[m] uploaded an image: (270KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/kyun.host/eYfJCTrYkGfxoRdqaDAsQNtD/5214%20-%20SoyBooru.jpg >
11:56:13 <naphtha[m]> YOU MUST REMOVE MONERO FROM YOUR EXCHANGE
11:57:02 <recanman[m]> <naphtha[m]> "what are the songs you like to..." <- I don't listen to music, sorry.
11:57:55 <recanman[m]> <anhdres[m]> "https://trocador.app/ is another..." <- There is also intercambio.app, orangefren.com
11:58:11 <louissignet[m]> <anhdres[m]> "https://trocador.app/ is another..." <- Worked beautiful thanks
11:59:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> recanman[m]: Redirected to UN yesterday
11:59:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> Avoid that trash
11:59:18 <recanman[m]> What??
11:59:27 <recanman[m]> What is UN?
11:59:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> United nations
11:59:36 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Eurocoin
11:59:37 <recanman[m]> United Nations...?
11:59:56 <recanman[m]> > <@anhdres:matrix.org> https://trocador.app/ is another alternative, they aggregate exchanges and insure your trade on most cases
11:59:56 <recanman[m]>  * ~There is also intercambio.app, orangefren.com~
12:00:00 <recanman[m]>  * There is also intercambio.app, orangefren.com
12:00:18 <recanman[m]> How does that work?
12:00:21 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> It was seized by UN
12:00:22 <recanman[m]> I don't understand.
12:00:27 <recanman[m]> Oh
12:00:35 <recanman[m]> Both of them?
12:00:53 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Hmm ngo seized my domain
12:00:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> Orangefren runa both
12:01:09 <TheBasketWeaving> <recanman[m]> "Oh, a rapper!" <- I only listen to music where nobody talks. Instrumentals. People never have anything of value to say and it just ruins songs
12:01:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> And crickets from both of these copy paste asswipes
12:01:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> Both = majestic and orangefren
12:02:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> Intercambio is an orangefren developed trocador copy paste job
12:02:36 <recanman[m]> I did not know that
12:02:50 <recanman[m]> * know that, good to know.
12:03:05 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Forked/ clone
12:03:11 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Relabel
12:03:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> Orangefren is known for being the portal which bad majestic swaps were happening
12:03:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> DanrdarkIsnotthe: Even TOS was copy pasted
12:04:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> Atomswap.com(?) is another scamware of majestics
12:04:18 <recanman[m]> So MajesticBank is bad?
12:04:31 <recanman[m]> I don't know too much about them.
12:04:34 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Subsidiary 
12:04:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> elite wallet is also majestic' thievery 
12:05:04 <nums[m]> MajesticBank rates were terrible when I last researched them
12:05:16 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Putting elite makes it sus
12:05:29 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Like “best wallet”
12:05:46 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Military grade encryption 
12:05:53 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Bic
12:06:19 <TrasherDK[m]> <naphtha[m]> "they can't know how much xmr was..." <- Because? They don't know how to subscribe to a ticker feed on exchanges?
12:06:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> DanrdarkIsnotthe: Saying "the on you can trust" is sus
12:06:45 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Ask coinbase
12:06:53 <naphtha[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: qrd on this? who is majestic?
12:07:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> Majesticbank.sc
12:07:12 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Monerkon sponsor lol
12:07:12 <nums[m]> is anyone else using http://hszyoqwrcp7cxlxnqmovp6vjvmnwj33g4wviuxqzq47emieaxjaperyd.onion/ ?
12:07:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> Wut is it^
12:07:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> DanrdarkIsnotthe: Briber*
12:07:46 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Scan with clamav
12:08:03 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Same thing
12:08:08 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Like lobbyist 
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12:08:41 <bridgerton[m]> <dezun> why is your font so weird
12:09:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> nums[m]: Trash
12:09:03 <recanman[m]> What is librewolf?
12:09:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> recanman[m]: no bs firefox
12:09:34 <recanman[m]> Oh
12:09:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Mull is android equivalent 
12:09:45 <recanman[m]> Why not use parabola's iceweasel?
12:09:54 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> To annoy endor mullvad browser lol
12:10:53 <nums[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: have I been doing it wrong? 😄 rates seemed good and reliable the few times that I have used them
12:11:16 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Magic alt!
12:11:22 <TrasherDK[m]> <hbs[m]> "That's the number of outputs..." <- Did you claim the IRS bounty yet?
12:11:25 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> * Majestic alt!
12:11:27 <naphtha[m]> bridgerton[m]: because vector fonts suck
12:11:53 <naphtha[m]> DanrdarkIsnotthe: im thinking of switching from librewolf to mullvad browser
12:12:07 <naphtha[m]> since librewolf gets an unique fingerprint on creepjs
12:12:10 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> So they fixed irs>xmr api????
12:12:14 <naphtha[m]> even between sessions
12:12:15 <naphtha[m]> and mullvad doesnt
12:12:45 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> You tried arkenfox on ff?
12:13:31 <naphtha[m]> nope
12:13:32 <recanman[m]> I don't think arkenfox protects you from unique fingerprint
12:17:33 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> https://github.com/arkenfox/user.js/wiki/1.1-To-Arkenfox-or-Not
12:18:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> <nums[m]> "have I been doing it wrong..." <- Exch,for example, often has less than 2 xmr
12:19:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> And will make you wait many blocks
12:21:05 <nums[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: You are right I do have to wait from time to time for more xmr to become available
12:22:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> Had towait 40 mins yesterday
12:23:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> So they literally took my shitcoin and didnt have xmr
12:23:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> wait for "6>7>6>7>5>8 blocks "
12:23:18 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> So bank run
12:24:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> On kucoin**
12:25:11 <nums[m]> Personally I don't mind the wait, it ticks all my other boxes and it was the first service to work for me out of several that I have tried or researched.
12:26:03 <nums[m]> Do you still get a fair exchange rate when you have to wait for 40+ mins?
12:26:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> nums[m]: I got fucked
12:27:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> i ferl like 1% less than was quoted at confirnation time
12:28:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> 420 of of ltc waa like 406 of xmr
12:28:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> 0.5% isnt 14$
12:28:45 <nums[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Sorry to hear, maybe I have just gotten lucky. For me it was always very close to the quoted ratio.
12:29:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> Fixedfloat has always given what i expect or near
12:29:09 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Next time i will short, to crash xmr
12:29:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> Exch seems to change the amount at the ladt refresh
12:30:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> OR literally has reserves and is waiting for "the worst rate" to send my xmr
12:30:32 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Maybe
12:30:38 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Doesnt like you
12:30:43 <nums[m]> Don't trust anyone lel
12:30:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> They also were false reporting rates for a while
12:31:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not including the tx fees 
12:31:28 <nums[m]> They definitely like me more I have done the math and I was fairly rewarded for my swaps
12:31:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> So theyd clsim "best rate" but be 3-4th best, since everyone ekses wuotes were all inclusive
12:32:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> Def wrong lol
12:32:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> I swap multiple times a day
12:32:59 <nums[m]> so where do you swap now?
12:33:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> And i avoid exch because of the "shotgun overcharged swaps"
12:33:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> I still use it, but ive done swaps at both at the same time and had exch randomly give terrible payouts 
12:33:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> Fixedfloat and exch
12:33:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> through trocador
12:35:42 <nums[m]> Fixedfloat requires Javascript though :(
12:38:26 <TheBasketWeaving> nums[m]: Javascript is evil
12:39:06 <nums[m]> TheBasketWeaving: I agree!
12:39:29 * TheBasketWeaving sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/a2571cdb42b440c0cf50402cdd795385bc5c3078
12:39:39 <TheBasketWeaving> Ah damn ir
12:39:48 <TheBasketWeaving> Ah here
12:39:51 * TheBasketWeaving sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/044a23fa4d760c545dd811bf178e14558f3f08d3
12:40:01 <TheBasketWeaving> The only JS I'll ever need
12:40:11 <nums[m]> what do you mean with swapping through trocodar?
12:40:24 <recanman[m]> TheBasketWeaving: > <@admin:basket-weaving.kyrgyzstan.kg> ```... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/51d100b8fd6e5b6431d8d8f6a8dbfd068c988b77>)
12:40:43 <TheBasketWeaving> All those sites that demand js
12:40:48 <TheBasketWeaving> Theyll finally know what it feels like
12:40:56 <TheBasketWeaving> If i enabled tgis
12:41:01 <TheBasketWeaving> * If i enabled this
12:41:09 <TheBasketWeaving> And if anyone cared about my website
12:41:22 <nums[m]> TheBasketWeaving: that's how things should be 😄
12:41:53 <nums[m]> s/trocodar/trocador/
12:42:03 <TheBasketWeaving> html, css, php, sql, and a custom webserver where necessary
12:42:06 <naphtha[m]> TheBasketWeaving: you must be really innocent if you think you'd be the first one that does this
12:42:14 <naphtha[m]> TheBasketWeaving: php is utter trash
12:42:17 <TheBasketWeaving> naphtha[m]: No I know it has been done before
12:42:22 <TheBasketWeaving> naphtha[m]: You are utter trash
12:42:32 <recanman[m]> naphtha[m]: Agreed.
12:42:38 <TheBasketWeaving> I like php
12:42:44 <recanman[m]> PHP leaves horrifying memories.
12:42:51 <naphtha[m]> tell me one (1) big php project that isn't buggy trash
12:42:53 <recanman[m]> * horrifying memories once you use it in production environments.
12:42:54 <TheBasketWeaving> Its a way to make the internet smart when i dont want to write a webserver
12:43:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> TheBasketWeaving: Booooooo
12:43:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> Php is trash
12:43:06 <TheBasketWeaving> Write purer php
12:43:11 <TheBasketWeaving> Don't depend on much
12:43:19 <TheBasketWeaving> Less dependencies less breakage
12:43:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> nums[m]: Trocador.app
12:43:26 <TheBasketWeaving> Mediawiki seems to be doing great on php
12:43:27 <recanman[m]> If only it were that simple
12:43:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> naphtha[m]: BITEJO 
12:43:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> jk
12:43:41 <naphtha[m]> TheBasketWeaving: barely
12:43:50 <recanman[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> BITEJO 
12:43:51 <recanman[m]> > jk
12:43:51 <recanman[m]> Kek
12:44:15 <recanman[m]> muh ccs
12:44:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> 100
12:45:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> recanman[m]: no deleting 💢 /s
12:45:11 <recanman[m]> Lol
12:45:19 <recanman[m]>  * Lol, that's quite funny.
12:45:23 <recanman[m]> I did it for a comedic effect.
12:45:25 <recanman[m]>  * I did it for a comedic effect
12:45:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> edits show up too
12:45:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> Kind of spammy on irc
12:45:57 <recanman[m]> What client are you on?
12:46:09 <recanman[m]> Oh, you're on IRC
12:46:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> Element
12:46:17 <TheBasketWeaving> I heard irssi is big on IRC
12:46:20 <TheBasketWeaving> I don't know why
12:46:24 <TheBasketWeaving> I don't use IRC
12:46:32 <TheBasketWeaving> I just hear these things
12:46:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> But matrix is killing the ability to join libera groups directly from matrix very soon
12:46:56 <TheBasketWeaving> ofrnxmr[m]: How can matrix do that, its all on libera.chat
12:47:28 <recanman[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: I am also on Element, how do you configure that?
12:47:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> ...
12:47:28 <TheBasketWeaving> Oh, theyre doing it
12:47:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> By only allowing connection to matrix servers
12:47:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> recanman[m]: #monero:libera.chat
12:48:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> #p2pool 
12:48:06 <recanman[m]> Ooh
12:48:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Rip next week for matrix users
12:48:37 <TheBasketWeaving> Its opt in
12:48:38 <recanman[m]> test
12:48:41 <recanman[m]>  * test test
12:48:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> You can also look on monerologs.net
12:48:44 <recanman[m]> test
12:48:46 <recanman[m]>  * test.
12:48:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> TheBasketWeaving: No
12:48:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its RIP next week
12:48:58 <naphtha[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: matrix.org will only allow you to connect to matrix.org servers?
12:49:01 <TheBasketWeaving> You can opt in to bridge liberachat
12:49:01 <recanman[m]> recanman[m]: This is pretty cool.
12:49:12 <TheBasketWeaving> TheBasketWeaving: In your liberachat channel
12:49:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> naphtha[m]: To matrix federated servers, homeservers etc 
12:49:32 <TheBasketWeaving> So, if the kind strangers of #p2pool:libera.chat decide to, it can remain
12:49:45 <naphtha[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: libera.chat is a homeserver
12:49:47 <TheBasketWeaving> But if they do nothing, itll unbridge
12:49:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> TheBasketWeaving: Yes. Moving forward, has to be bridged to a matrix channel
12:50:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> naphtha[m]: Its not a matrix server (?)
12:50:27 <TheBasketWeaving> ofrnxmr[m]: SAD
12:50:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its an irc server (?)
12:50:43 <naphtha[m]> has to be
12:50:51 <naphtha[m]> matrix can only communicate with the matrix protocol
12:50:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> No it doesnt
12:50:52 <naphtha[m]> not irc
12:50:59 <naphtha[m]> you need a bridge for anything else
12:51:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats why supoort is getting dropped 
12:51:12 <naphtha[m]> support for what????
12:51:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> And bridge is the only path forward soon
12:51:47 <naphtha[m]> you probably mean libera.chat will take their matrix homeserver down
12:51:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> naphtha[m]: For connecting to libera irc directly via matrix protocol
12:52:18 <recanman[m]> v
12:52:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> i dont "mean" anything. Need to find the news 
12:52:20 <recanman[m]>  * [v](https://libera.chat/news/matrix-deportalling)
12:52:20 <naphtha[m]> not the decision of matrix.org
12:52:23 <recanman[m]>  * https://libera.chat/news/matrix-deportalling
12:52:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> thanka recan
12:53:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> Portalled channel vs plumbled channel
12:53:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> Libera isnt a matrix homeserver 
12:54:19 <plowsof11> apparently "we're ok"
12:54:37 <plowsof11> our broken bridge wont get broken 
12:54:59 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Its a bridge between two worlds
12:55:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> plowsof11: we hav some rooms  no bridg #p2pool  -log and -mini
12:56:19 <TrasherDK[m]> <TheBasketWeaving> "html, css, php, sql, and a..." <- ```
12:56:19 <TrasherDK[m]> php -S <addr>:<port> -t <docroot>
12:56:19 <TrasherDK[m]> ```
12:57:57 <plowsof11> im in p2pool-log ofrnxmr on matrix (unable to invite hm)
13:01:26 <nums[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "Trocador.app" <- My bad I didn't realize Trocador.app is an aggregator of exchanges. I will give this one a try in the future thanks for sharing.
13:01:38 <recanman[m]> It's beautiful 
13:01:43 <recanman[m]> Trocador.app is beautiful
13:02:17 <plowsof11> kycnot.me has other services too, also monerica.com 
13:06:15 <nums[m]> plowsof11: great stuff, didn't find monerica.com before now
13:06:33 <recanman[m]> It's good to use as a reference point.
13:06:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> <nums[m]> "My bad I didn't realize Trocador..." <- Trocador.i2p if youre using i2p
13:07:01 <recanman[m]> If you find anything that uses Monero that isn't on there, you can make a pull request and contribute.
13:07:24 <recanman[m]>  https://github.com/monerica-project/monerica
13:24:47 <nioc> from matrix https://matrix.org/blog/2023/07/deportalling-libera-chat/
13:25:20 <nioc> it's been stated that it won't affect the current monero channels 
13:27:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thnks nioc too
14:07:40 <rub1ck[m]> Hey lads
14:08:06 * rub1ck[m] uploaded an image: (7485KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/fcnJcZMhdhfrrHyiLtQxznrv/00047.png >
14:08:12 <rub1ck[m]> Watcha think
14:08:40 <Lyza> anyone else having an issue with i2p peers in monerod or did my config just suddenly break somehow
14:12:06 <ZarterPleaseping> How can I buy monero without kyc, there are no local monero sellers near me who accept cash
14:12:28 <recanman[m]> Purchase a gift card with the cash, use it on LocalMonero
14:12:33 <recanman[m]> You don't have to use cash for no KYC
14:12:55 <ZarterPleaseping> I know but my payment methods would never be very private
14:13:01 <ZarterPleaseping> recanman[m]: That's a good idea actually
14:13:29 <recanman[m]> You can use Cake Wallet I believe to use the gift card directly
14:13:31 <recanman[m]> I'm not sure though
14:15:11 <ZarterPleaseping> recanman[m]: You can must buy gift carsa withthem
14:20:30 <ZarterPleaseping> But thoughts on simply using a debit card to buy monero? 
14:20:52 <recanman[m]> Your bank will know that you used Cake Wallet, which is known for Monero
14:20:59 <recanman[m]> They won't know what happened with the Monero
14:21:24 <ZarterPleaseping> True...
14:21:24 <recanman[m]> What's your threat model?
14:21:56 <ZarterPleaseping> I didn't find any local monero buyers with giftcards for my currency
14:22:24 <ZarterPleaseping> recanman[m]: In reality or what I treat it like?
14:22:24 <naphtha[m]> <ZarterPleaseping> "How can I buy monero without kyc..." <- cash by mail
14:22:48 <recanman[m]> I did not want to suggest that option but that works.
14:22:53 <recanman[m]> You have to be careful with it.
14:23:01 <naphtha[m]> how?
14:23:16 <ZarterPleaseping> It feels risky though
14:23:28 <recanman[m]> Depends where you are/
14:23:30 <recanman[m]> s///;./
14:23:31 <recanman[m]> s///./
14:23:43 <recanman[m]> https://localmonero.co/nojs/cash-by-mail-tips
14:27:55 <ZarterPleaseping> Moreover there is no in my country
14:28:59 <naphtha[m]> doesnt have to be in your country
15:33:42 <Lyza> does --tx-proxy use socks v4?
15:40:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> 4a iirc
15:40:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> vtnerd: 
15:41:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> Probably shows in the commit
15:41:53 <Lyza> okay, just trying to figure out why i2pd suddenly stopped working with monerod
15:42:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> What happend
15:42:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> Probably because i2p in monerod doesnt work properly
15:42:53 <Lyza> I'm rolling back to the rpevious version to see if that fixes it, may be the result of upgrading i2pd --- there's just no peers and some socks related warnings in the i2pd log
15:43:02 <Lyza> nah I've been using it for awhile and working great tbh
15:43:07 <Lyza> much betetr than in the past
15:43:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> I2p has been disabled on my nodes pending tx-proxy and anon-inbound fixes
15:43:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> Lyza: What version of i2pd
15:44:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> Lyza: Nothing has changed on monero implementation
15:44:17 <Lyza> 2.48.0 -- I'm using their debian repo that always has most current version
15:44:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its always been broken, and the more peopke use it the more broken it is
15:44:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> I think j last uaed 2.47
15:44:44 <Lyza> Idk what to tell you, usually I have over a dozen i2p peers inbound and outbound
15:45:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> i didnt say "it doesnt work", i said "its broken"
15:45:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> both in different ways
15:45:30 <Lyza> not sure what you mean then
15:45:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> Anon inbound by broadcasting fake ports a flooding peerlists with fake peers
15:46:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Txproxy by dropping i2p outgoing and as a result, failing to broadcast tx (even if you have i2p in + onion in + onion out)
15:47:04 <Lyza> I think a lot of that has been fixed
15:47:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> None of it has
15:47:16 <Lyza> I haven't had a transaction fail to broadcast in months and months
15:47:32 <Lyza> bro it's definitely been fixed a lot, I've been using it long enough to know
15:47:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> bro its definitely not been touched
15:48:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ive been monitoring the issue and fixes regarding it long enough to know 
15:48:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> And plowsof @plowsof:matrix.org:  runs a high volume node who can confirm the same 
15:49:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> The anon inbound issue has existed aince implementation, and has not been fixed as of 18.2.2 or any pr in the repo
15:50:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Just because you havent personally reproduced the issues, doesnt mean they were fixed. Im not speaking my opinion, these are facts. So im done here
15:50:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: ^
15:50:58 <Lyza> https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/6938
15:51:27 <Lyza> I'm not saying there aren't still issues, but you said none of it was fixed and that is entirely incorrect
15:51:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> No, its not
15:52:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> V18 fixed connections and p2p protocol overall
15:52:06 <Lyza> lmao okay whatever, you obviously didn't even look at the link
15:52:26 <Lyza> I came here hoping for someone to be helpful not start a stupid argument because they don't like the i2p implementation or whatever
15:52:40 <Lyza> it has been working for me, something changed, doesn't seem related to anything you're saying
15:52:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Did absolutely nothing about the broken implementation of i2ps txproxy and anon inbound
15:53:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> That great that it works sometimes
15:53:11 <Lyza> it works consistently but 👍
15:54:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> But yes, i will ignore the inconsistencies 
15:54:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "Anon inbound by broadcasting..." <- ^
15:54:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "Txproxy by dropping i2p outgoing..." <- ^
15:54:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Reproducible, everytime. "i dont like"
15:54:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> its broken
15:54:55 <Lyza> sorry it's broken for you 👍
15:55:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> You can even connect to yourself, multiple times
17:16:02 <selsta> ofrnxmr[m]: are you using i2p-zero or i2pd?
17:31:57 <Lyza> rolling back to an older version doesn't seem to have helped. my config hasn't really changed otherwise. my btc node has i2p peers but it's in a different VM and doesn't use socks
17:36:02 <Lyza> I guess I'll try to debug a little more before I open an issue, but i2pd itself appears to be working
18:15:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> <selsta> "ofrnxmr: are you using i2p-..." <- I2pd
18:15:37 <selsta> I think the majority of the network uses the outdated i2p-zero which misses a lot of the recent i2p fixes.
18:16:04 <selsta> I wonder if that's causing some of the issues. Not talking about being able to connect yourself specifically.
18:16:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> thr tx-proxy isue seems to be from an oversight during impl
18:17:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> When it was only onion support, a failed txproxy = "do not broadcast"
18:18:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> Now with i2p added, _any_ failed tx-proxy (onion OR i2p) = "do not broadcast"
18:18:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> if both are confmfigured, jt should broadcast over either or and not rely on both to be available 
18:19:32 <ZarterPleaseping> <naphtha[m]> "doesnt have to be in your..." <- The shipping would be expensive
18:20:04 <naphtha[m]> ZarterPleaseping: shipping a small envelope really isnt that expensive
18:20:07 <naphtha[m]> no matter how far away
18:20:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> Lyza:  do you have both onion and i2p configured?
18:20:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> of so, have you tried with i2p only? 
18:20:38 <ZarterPleaseping> Maybe but takes a lot of time
18:20:40 <Lyza> I've never used it with tor, only i2p
18:21:01 <ZarterPleaseping> Gift cards sounds good though 
18:21:16 <naphtha[m]> if you have paysafecard or an equivalent in your country
18:21:20 <naphtha[m]> you could also use it
18:21:25 <naphtha[m]> more value than a gift card
18:21:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> Gotcha. And you can get neither incoming nor outgoing?
18:22:15 <Lyza> yeah, not even like in a temporary 'connecting' status
18:22:35 <Lyza> I'm about to create a fresh VM
18:23:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> Are you referring to rpc?
18:23:36 <Lyza> no, tx-proxy peers
18:23:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> or, where is the "connecting" status
18:24:13 <Lyza> monerod sync_info will show a 'connecting' sort of status, not sure if that's the exact word it uses
18:24:31 <Lyza> it's usually pretty transient, jsut a second or 2
18:24:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> Can you access rpc?
18:25:15 <Lyza> I don't have RPC available over i2p but yes locally I can
18:25:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you config an i2p server to connect to rpc port, you can check if its i2p/firewalls or if its monerod p2p
18:26:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you can connect to rpc (after config) http://your.b31.i2p/get_info, then p2p should also work
18:26:24 <Lyza> true
18:26:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you cannot connect, its sounds like a connection issue between i2pd and localhost
18:31:24 <Lyza> well the i2pd log suggests it's receiving the socks requests from monerod
18:31:35 <Lyza> cause it's saying they failed :/
18:34:27 <ZarterPleaseping> There is such a big difference price wise buying from the cake wallet app or and exchange and local monero
18:38:17 <naphtha[m]> sure, if you use no kyc methods
18:38:45 <ZarterPleaseping> But even if I use my own credit card?
19:03:33 <nums[m]> How is the experience of selling monero for euros via a peer-to-peer negotiated sepa bank transfer? My bank is rather paranoid some I am afraid they will crack down on me as soon as I receive suspicious "euros" but maybe there are ways to mitigate this risk?
19:03:49 <nums[m]> s/some/so/
19:04:05 <nums[m]>  * How is the experience of selling monero for euros via a peer-to-peer negotiated sepa bank transfer? My bank is rather paranoid so I am afraid they will crack down on me as soon as I receive "suspicious" euros but maybe there are ways to mitigate this risk?
19:04:45 <bioset[m]> nums[m]: Id rather use cash by mail
19:06:46 <nums[m]> bioset[m]: because you can choose to disclose it to your bank when/if you see fit I guess?
19:08:52 <hbs[m]> <nums[m]> "How is the experience of selling..." <- banks are entitled to request that you provide proof of the source of funds, with various consequences if you refuse to do so
19:14:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> <ZarterPleaseping> "There is such a big difference..." <- which is more?
19:14:58 <nums[m]> <hbs[m]> "banks are entitled to request..." <- it's a good point, my monero came out of thin air but my bank will unfriend me if I share that story
19:15:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> heres an idea: if its so much cheaper, why not so the world a favor and buy it off cex, and sell it higher on LM
19:15:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> nums[m]: I tell the bank "i sell drugs. Jk. Babysitting"
19:15:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> "jk. Im a stripper"
19:16:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> I told my bank "im selling off my monero"
19:17:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> "it got delisted, so im dumping it"
19:17:14 <nums[m]> I have a few bills that can only be pay through my bank so I have to hand over the money at some point but I think cash is better after thinking it over. More flexibilty until cash has been phased out completely.
19:17:44 <RavFX[m]> I just pay my bills in cash
19:17:44 <RavFX[m]> Or XMR (for online services)
19:18:09 <nums[m]> RavFX[m]: > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> I just pay my bills in cash
19:18:09 <nums[m]> > Or XMR (for online services)
19:18:09 <nums[m]> where I am from you can't unless you want to be homeless
19:18:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> explain
19:18:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Cant pay bills in cash?
19:18:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> I know a guy who can take my cash and pay my bills for me
19:18:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> While building credit for himself 
19:19:11 <RavFX[m]> I'm totally unbanked since 2017, never looked back.
19:19:11 <RavFX[m]> There is some annoyance when I want to buy niche stuff online
19:19:13 <nums[m]> crazy I know but they have me by the balls
19:19:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> Need to contact sepa
19:19:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> And tell themto switch to monero 
19:20:03 <RavFX[m]> Maybe can find a localmonero contact that can pay you're bills
19:20:24 <nums[m]> RavFX[m]: good one maybe this will work!
19:21:36 <nums[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: they cited KYC regulation and hang up on me ^
19:21:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> what about it
19:22:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> @mymonero please explain to them that mymonero loves kyc
19:22:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> Next question
19:22:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> i know my customers. Do you?
19:23:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> Clearly not
19:23:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> Because the fucking bank lets their customers get scammed all day
19:23:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> How tf do you get scammed on a centralized service?
19:24:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> like.. 90 year olds spending all of their money of crypto
19:24:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> Sounds legit
19:24:23 <RavFX[m]> Bank are only there to make profit out of you're deposit (and now there overleveraged, in some country it's real bad... waiting for the pop)
19:25:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> What im trying to say.. is banks etc "kyc" and still fail miserably at "knowing their customers" or "anti money laundering"
19:25:58 <bioset[m]> <nums[m]> "because you can choose to..." <- Banks are not involved except when withdrawing to cash from your account maybe. But for me its too much of a headache. Maybe today the bank doesnt have an issue but in the future you get some problems from some obscure angle
19:26:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> My account stays empty
19:26:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> Technically negative 
19:26:37 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Overdraft 
19:26:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> They wont close my accounts as long as i carry a balance 
19:26:45 <nums[m]> yes negative is the way to go, I realized that yesterday
19:26:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> I mean, paying interest 
19:27:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> If they want to, thats fine
19:27:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> Their loss
19:27:48 <nums[m]> there is only so much they can take if your main asset is debt
19:28:13 <RavFX[m]> Banks simply, can't be trusted
19:28:13 <RavFX[m]> I might still have an account, or they might have closed it.
19:28:13 <RavFX[m]> Last transaction was sending all digits to some local exchange that don't exist anymore because they would not give me a new ATM card (mine expired). They wanted me to make a check to myself to withdraw my money, did not want to lose time to find where I stashed these deprecated pieces of archaic papers.
19:29:27 <RavFX[m]> To get new ATM card they asked me to go to the branch I opened the account... fk that, no time to waste
19:29:54 <nums[m]> RavFX[m]: > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> Banks simply, can't be trusted
19:29:54 <nums[m]> > I might still have an account, or they might have closed it.
19:29:54 <nums[m]> > Last transaction was sending all digits to some local exchange that don't exist anymore because they would not give me a new ATM card (mine expired). They wanted me to make a check to myself to withdraw my money, did not want to lose time to find where I stashed these deprecated pieces of archaic papers.
19:29:54 <nums[m]> my account was frozen of a 1 euro deposit to a crypto wallet, the person on the phone was casually reading my entire TX history to me and asking all kinds of inappropriate questions to save me from myself ofcourse
19:30:04 <nums[m]> > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> Banks simply, can't be trusted
19:30:04 <nums[m]> > I might still have an account, or they might have closed it.
19:30:04 <nums[m]> > Last transaction was sending all digits to some local exchange that don't exist anymore because they would not give me a new ATM card (mine expired). They wanted me to make a check to myself to withdraw my money, did not want to lose time to find where I stashed these deprecated pieces of archaic papers.
19:30:04 <nums[m]>  * my account was frozen because of a 1 euro deposit to a crypto wallet, the person on the phone was casually reading my entire TX history to me and asking all kinds of inappropriate questions to save me from myself ofcourse
19:30:17 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Terrorist 
19:30:43 <RavFX[m]> nums[m]: That look like what banks would do yeah
19:31:47 <RavFX[m]> Some are more crypto hostile... really depend of the country and laws I guess
19:31:49 <hbs[m]> RavFX[m]: Yes saving people from themselves is their specialty, and that seems to be true in whatever country you're in
19:32:30 <RavFX[m]> At least there ATM are reliable thanks to localmonero 😂
19:33:28 <RavFX[m]> * localmonero 😂 (in my country, can't do that in CAN/US/EU I think)
19:34:28 <RavFX[m]> Using localmonero to get cash from random bank ATM is faster than going to ATM with an ATM card 😂
19:40:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> My account was frozen becauae of stolen funds 
19:40:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> I called and they unfroze and said its sending banks problem 
19:41:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> My banks wants their moolah
19:41:23 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Criminal 
19:41:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> Sender reported the transfer as fraud. My bank said "shrug"
19:41:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> "did u scam some(ne"
19:41:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> nope, sold em monero
19:41:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> Sold em what? Monero.. crypto
19:42:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> "oh.. you shoukd be using a business acct"
19:42:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> Nah, i dont run a business. Im selling MY monero
19:42:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> "ok. Well this was reported as a purchase for puppies"
19:42:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> yep. They got scammed 
19:43:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> "ok np. Thanks. Your account is unlocked now. Anything i can do for you?"
19:47:37 <RavFX[m]> I don't like exchange of definitive TX (crypto) vs cancellable TX (bank, credit, scampal, etc etc). They regularly try to scam to have free crypto.
19:50:00 <RavFX[m]> Once the cash flow out of random ATM, it's in my pocket, good luck reversing that
19:52:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> <RavFX[m]> "I don't like exchange of..." <- Its nicr that my bank wont accept the reversal
19:53:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> Simply says "user authorized the transaction."
19:53:21 <RavFX[m]> Yeah, not all bank are equal.
19:53:21 <RavFX[m]> I guess you don't know until you test ;)
19:53:23 <nums[m]> Not so long ago I was thinking that maybe an argument could be made in court that individuals should be able to be their own bank. The specifications for how to handle SEPA transfers for example are public so what is really stopping us from implementing it besides the fact that individuals are not recognized as banks.
19:53:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> They also wont help me if i send money to the irs because im getting arrested 
19:57:01 <nums[m]> just need some regulation for one-person-banks 😁
19:58:17 <RavFX[m]> I am my own bank, no need to involve the state.
19:58:17 <RavFX[m]> The trick is to get more people to be there own bank so that way you need less and less the banking infrastructure
19:58:57 <RavFX[m]> Why SEPA when you can do XMR TX and use things like trocador/intercambio
19:59:16 <RavFX[m]> if X accept crypto, whatever crypto it is, there is a way to transact
20:00:02 <RavFX[m]> Problem is getting the big one to adopt it (for example amazon)
20:00:03 <RavFX[m]> would be so better than using a bazillion gift card
20:00:08 <nums[m]> RavFX[m]: I think it would pay to infiltrate the system like that
20:00:57 <RavFX[m]> Would be nice to have a bridge, but I guess the bridge would get regulated.
20:00:57 <RavFX[m]> and SEPA is not ment to TX crypto, even if the spec are open, you can't send XMR thru that, it have to be converted somehow
20:02:33 <nums[m]> RavFX[m]: > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> Would be nice to have a bridge, but I guess the bridge would get regulated.
20:02:33 <nums[m]> > and SEPA is not ment to TX crypto, even if the spec are open, you can't send XMR thru that, it have to be converted somehow
20:02:33 <nums[m]> I think for the time being most of us will still operate in the first realm to some extent. Regulation will come ofcourse but it could weaken the power banks currently hold over individuals that can only escape at great expense.
20:12:19 <nums[m]> I have looked into registering a bank in my home country and the process was both expensive and covered with roadblocks so this one-person bank idea is really just a daydream. It would be nice though if there could be a separate process for tiny banks that only perform basic operations.
20:21:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its only a daydream if you dream about the rules
20:22:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> Being a chartered bank is one thing. Simply being a bank is another. #bringbackthemob
20:40:09 <nums[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "Being a chartered bank is one..." <- Dreaming of being chartered makes me realize how silly it all sounds. I will only be on the charter for as long as they let me. I have again landed at monero planet.
20:58:19 <naphtha[m]> <nums[m]> "How is the experience of selling..." <- use revolut
20:58:44 <naphtha[m]> lately even if they suspend accounts for trading on localmonero
20:58:51 <naphtha[m]> they will unsuspend after you provide them the trade receipts
20:59:23 <naphtha[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "I told my bank "im selling off..." <- tell them you're getting fucked in the ass
20:59:29 <naphtha[m]> and you're paying the guy that does it
21:02:33 <naphtha[m]> <RavFX[m]> "Maybe can find a localmonero..." <- ive had people offer this to me
21:02:51 <naphtha[m]> but it would require me to disclose my plug
21:08:33 <nums[m]> <naphtha[m]> "use revolut" <- thanks I will check them out
21:24:49 <RavFX[m]> Revolut only support EEA, Australia, Singapore, Switzerland, Japan, the United Kingdom, and the United States.
21:24:49 <RavFX[m]> Kind of lot of crypto cards too
21:25:23 <RavFX[m]> EEA is like the only thing that is actually supported expect some exceptions that support US (if they still exist)
21:40:27 <birchie[m]> Can someone recommend a good matrix home server? Many ban monero servers. The ones that don't are often slow or unstable.
21:44:23 <monerobull[m]> matrix.org 😭
21:44:30 <birchie[m]> Noooooo
21:44:32 <birchie[m]> I refuse
21:44:34 <birchie[m]> Lol
21:45:22 <monerobull[m]> after months i bit the monero.social bullet and within 3 days there was a major maintenance downtime :P
21:45:46 <monerobull[m]> after that i just stuck with default :/
21:47:51 <birchie[m]> I didn't realize monero.social had open registration
21:47:59 <birchie[m]> Ty
22:28:59 <stsh[m]> Is it rude to ask what monero contributors have the cleanest/most exemplary code? Just looking for inspiration to study--am I safe to pick any off the top? 
22:30:26 <plowsof11> i think most monero contributors copy the style of code near / around the thing theyre changing .. code style is serious business 
22:33:51 <stsh[m]> I see--so study templeOS? 
22:39:07 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> Centralized on matrix.orgie
22:40:29 <naphtha[m]> <RavFX[m]> "Revolut only support EEA..." <- > <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> Revolut only support EEA, Australia, Singapore, Switzerland, Japan, the United Kingdom, and the United States.
22:40:29 <naphtha[m]> > 
22:40:29 <naphtha[m]> > Kind of lot of crypto cards too
22:40:29 <naphtha[m]> i know thats not what you meant but don't buy crypto through revolut - they take a 3.5% fee when selling and they don't even allow you to withdraw it (!)
22:40:35 <naphtha[m]> probably the worst platform when it comes to crypto
22:41:10 <naphtha[m]> <stsh[m]> "I see--so study templeOS?..." <- next month marks 5 years since we lost him
22:41:24 <naphtha[m]> 😿
22:42:27 <stsh[m]> Polling the audience--who is next coming code Jesus post-terrydavis era? 
22:44:21 <birchie[m]> pablof7z
23:40:55 <louissignet[m]> Vitalik shitting on Monero because too much privacy is extreme if it doesn’t allow for Blacklisting of Bad Actors
23:40:58 <louissignet[m]> https://twitter.com/i/spaces/1DXxyvDYZqgKM
23:41:12 <louissignet[m]> Ammm, what happened to censorship resistance man
23:42:01 <louissignet[m]> Starts at minute 22
23:42:47 <louissignet[m]> Or 20-21 if you want to hear his bad takes on ring signatures
23:47:20 <louissignet[m]> 26:35 “chainalysis should do the flagging”
23:47:30 <louissignet[m]> This man just went full statecoiner
23:49:26 <nums[m]> I guess there is still a reason to have a Twitter account actually something I would want to listen to
23:52:36 <nums[m]> is this an usual take for Vitalik? I mostly know him through funny internet pictures and never payed him much attention before
23:59:20 <naphtha[m]> <stsh[m]> "Polling the audience--who is..." <- me
23:59:31 <naphtha[m]> 🫡