00:00:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> <JivanPal[m]> "Crypto users don't use specific..." <- Yes they do
00:01:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> If youre running your own node, dont let others use your rpc
00:01:40 <JivanPal[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: For some definition of "use", sure, but Monero nodes don't really have a say in what kinds of transactions they admit/broadcast/relay
00:02:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yes they do
00:02:26 <JivanPal[m]> How so?
00:03:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats what a nodes job is. 
00:03:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> i can very much decide when and if to relay your tx
00:03:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> I can use specific nodes to mint nfts
00:03:21 <plowsof11> "dont broadcast Mordinals" was in a recent update .. FOSS
00:03:27 <JivanPal[m]> Sure, but on what basis would you be making that decision? You have no easy way to determine that it's even me sending it to you
00:03:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Other nodes will reject these 
00:03:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> JivanPal[m]: Yes i do
00:03:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> IP?
00:03:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> The txid?
00:03:55 <JivanPal[m]> And if I obfuscate my IP?
00:04:00 <JivanPal[m]> What does the txid tell you?
00:04:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> The id of the tx?
00:05:08 <JivanPal[m]> How si that useful to you?
00:05:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> Heu
00:05:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> Youre wrong
00:05:18 <JivanPal[m]> s/si/is/
00:05:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ofrnxmr out
00:05:27 <JivanPal[m]> Mhm, whatever you say
00:05:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> breaking monero on youtube 
00:05:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Call me in a few hrs with apology 
00:05:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or
00:06:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> Next hard fork issues with remote nodes 
00:06:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> That exist today
00:06:22 <JivanPal[m]> That's many, many hours of video content, can you point me to the exact 30-second snippet that answers my question?
00:06:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> no, you can read the titles 
00:06:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> And even ctrl f on the transcripts 
00:07:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> Which are available online
00:07:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or watch them
00:07:17 <JivanPal[m]> I ask a simple question: what info in the transaction data is useful to you in order to decide which transactions to suppress?
00:07:37 <ofrnxmr[m]> And stop guessing about well researched acts 
00:07:43 <JivanPal[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: This is like telling me to look up the spelling of a word in the dictionary. How can I find someting when I don't know what I'm supposed to be looking for?
00:07:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> JivanPal[m]: And it takea a few hrs to explain 
00:08:01 <JivanPal[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: How else is anyone supposed to learn anything? I'm not guessing
00:08:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> so go listen to sgp and sarang explain it 
00:08:18 <JivanPal[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Some pointers would be appreciated. 10 hours of content when I understand cryptography is not a good use of my time.
00:08:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> JivanPal[m]: By reading or watching the info 
00:08:31 <nioc> I heard nothing about info in a txid
00:08:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> JivanPal[m]: Ita ELI5'd by sgp 
00:09:07 <JivanPal[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Where?
00:09:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> nioc: Thats just moving goalpost from initiak rebuttal
00:09:18 <JivanPal[m]> I don't need an ELI5, any explanation will do, technical or otherwise
00:09:27 <JivanPal[m]> What rebuttal? xD
00:09:29 <nioc> that was his question
00:09:34 <plowsof11> what is the original 
00:09:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> The question that neess tk be answered is remote node attacka 
00:09:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> That uh
00:10:07 <nioc> I never use a remote node
00:10:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> Crypto users dont use specifc nodes...
00:10:23 <JivanPal[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: What? How is an attack on a specific node relevant to the question of how you, a node operator, determine whether or not to suppress a given transaction?
00:10:24 <plowsof11> txid -> decoys -> EAE?
00:10:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> Quote
00:10:39 <sgp[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Your asking what metadata can be used. The answer is long and complex, if you want a detailed answer. Transaction constructions are complex
00:10:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> <JivanPal[m]> "For some definition of "use..." <- And then this
00:10:46 <JivanPal[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Yes, and I attempted to explain what I mean
00:11:14 <sgp[m]> I think you're assuming the metadata is a simple response like "the only metadata item is A"
00:11:17 <plowsof11> i invite all localhosts to use any tor monero node 
00:11:33 <JivanPal[m]> sgp[m]: Is there a concise resource on this? Or perhaps you able to highlight one example?
00:12:03 <plowsof11> im just glad people are talking here, got my fix before bed 
00:12:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> Sgp recorded those many hours of videos
00:12:13 <sgp[m]> There's no concise, comprehensive answer. But there are concise examples
00:12:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> please watch them
00:12:24 <JivanPal[m]> sgp[m]: Any one would be appreciated
00:12:40 <sgp[m]> Pick any single Breaking Monero episode and read the transcript. Maybe something on timing
00:12:42 <JivanPal[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Maybe later' as I said, citing several hours of content is not a good way to answer a very direct question.
00:12:53 <sgp[m]> There are what, 12 or so episodes? 12 examples there
00:12:58 <JivanPal[m]> s/'/;/
00:13:05 <sgp[m]> Each is like 20 mins, and there are transcripts
00:14:09 <sgp[m]> Here's 1 example: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M_IYzzC5Zqk
00:14:25 <sgp[m]> 20 minute video, not 10 hours
00:15:00 <sgp[m]> However, that's a deep-ish analysis of a single point of metadata. There are other attack vectors
00:15:13 <plowsof11> i was going to reimburse for 10 hours 
00:15:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsSYUeVwrHBnAUre2G_LYDsdo-tD0ov-y
00:15:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://youtu.be/n6Bxp0k7Uqg
00:15:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> this episode is about remote nodes
00:15:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Top link is the playlist
00:15:45 <sgp[m]> It's like asking for a comprehensive list of all of Tor's privacy limitations. That would take days to explain
00:16:05 <JivanPal[m]> I'm not asking for a comprehensive list though...
00:16:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> weve spent 20 mins here
00:16:26 <JivanPal[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsSYUeVwrHBnAUre2G_LYDsdo-tD0ov-y... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/03cc1eafc46081a1a8ec6594d3e183b49bc593e9>)
00:16:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> Kk
00:16:48 <JivanPal[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Yes, and several examples probably could've been given, but alas, here we are
00:17:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> RTFM and DYOR ar better here 
00:17:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> The ELI5 was shortened as muchas possible
00:17:37 <ofrnxmr[m]> And ended up being hours long and a book
00:17:56 <sgp[m]> Oh oh oh, here's a single good video. The one that inspired breaking Monero: https://youtu.be/SAzYkg3wuHs
00:18:16 <plowsof11> the MAGIC monerofund.org allowed the community to crowdfund this research proposal on a related topic https://monerofund.org/projects/eae_attack_and_churning  
00:18:18 <sgp[m]> It's not comprehensive, but it better fits the idea of being a single video to start with perhaps
00:18:44 <JivanPal[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: These are silly adages for these sorts of direct queries, especially when you are talking to someone who has already read the manual and done his research.
00:19:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Rucknium:  help
00:19:53 <JivanPal[m]> Anyways, thanks for the discussion and resources, I'll check them out and come back sometime with questions, if any, it's time for me to get some sleep
00:20:35 <sgp[m]> People will definitely believe you've "already done the research" more if you at least skim the breaking Monero transcripts :) Good night
00:20:59 <JivanPal[m]> Well, I have read Zero to Monero and such, so 🤷‍♂️
00:21:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> And think people dont use specific nodes?
00:21:34 <sgp[m]> Zero to Monero will help with the cryptography and stuff, but it's less of a resource to pinpoint privacy limitations if that's what you're interested in getting into
00:25:26 <TrasherDK[m]> <JivanPal[m]> "How else is anyone supposed to..." <- I'm guessing, you haven't run into ofrnxmr before.
00:25:54 <JivanPal[m]> TrasherDK[m]: No, I am now to this channel, haha
00:26:04 <JivanPal[m]> s/now/new/
00:27:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> Welcome! 
00:27:29 <plowsof11> if you wait until June 7th ~ 9th 2024, you could travel to Monerokon in Prague and purchase Monero in cash p2p, or from a Monero ATM with euro notes (which has a new donation goal up  https://atm.monero.is/donate.html)
00:29:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> ATM at MoneroKon 2023: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2DDnBxwKbU
00:49:58 <nioc> plowsof11: that is for the digilol one?
00:51:02 <nioc> oh yes it is  :)
00:57:20 <naphtha[m]> <JivanPal[m]> "No, I am now to this channel..." <- that "ignore" button is really useful sometimes
00:57:58 <plowsof11> bridge selectively dropped your first message nioc :'( 
00:59:02 <nioc> I will have to remember to wake it up first next time !!!!!!!!!!!!
01:01:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> naphtha[m]: useful to ignore ofrnxmr? Sounds ignorant
01:17:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://youtu.be/n6Bxp0k7Uqg?t=10m33s
01:19:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> The whole video is good, of course
06:33:13 <archlinux__> Hey I had a quick question regarding the Feather Wallet for Monero. Do you have to setup a full node in order to use the wallet or you can access a node relay to be able to use it?
06:34:44 <merope> You can connect to a remote node
06:35:06 <XMRBABY678> Hey is anyone familiar using the Feather wallet?
06:37:31 <merope> Plenty of people, why?
07:16:50 <XMRBABY678> I was asking because I was wondering if in order to use the wallet you either had to download a node or get access to a node relay
07:17:21 <XMRBABY678> *You either have
07:25:32 <spirobel[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "And then this" <- the buck stops with the miners. This is just a pedantic point. Nodes do not have an ability to censor transactions. We saw the same thing play out in Bitcoin ordinals, when some Blockchain Bureaucrats thought they could censor the network. One mans spam is another mans treasure and it does not matter what node operators think about that in the end. 
08:56:49 <ceetee[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "Thats what a nodes job is...." <- > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Thats what a nodes job is.... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/ea6d03940170e62daa0300cc6ac35b59ff8a5e66>)
08:56:50 <ceetee[m]> s///, s/glag_is_illegal/flag_tx_illegal/
12:37:36 <Rucknium[m]> Jivan Pal 🇬🇧: Monero transactions can differ in many ways in their "cleartext" that all node runners can see. 
12:38:54 <Rucknium[m]> A few: The number of inputs and outputs of a transaction. Which transaction outputs are referenced in each ring. tx_extra contents.
12:39:34 <Rucknium[m]> In my Monerotopia presentation I cover more of them. Start on page 40: https://github.com/Rucknium/presentations/blob/main/Rucknium-Monerotopia-2023-Slides.pdf
12:41:07 <Rucknium[m]> Node runner are free to run custom software that would not relay transactions that meet any criteria they choose.
12:43:31 <Rucknium[m]> It is a separate question whether the differences between transactions actually give the node runner any useful information about what the purpose of the transaction is. Usually, the tx differences probably do not.
12:46:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> <ceetee[m]> "> <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Thats..." <- > <@ctrej:matrix.org> Well yes, but the context was "if I run a node, is it problematic if it relays illegal transaction"
12:46:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> > A node can see some metadata such as the junk drawer, but there is not flag `if (flag_tx_illegal) drop_tx();` so you can not be liable for not enabling this feature
12:46:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> The junk drawer can be used for that
12:48:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> to say it ends at miners...yeah.. the miners nodes
12:49:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> I can choose to not relay any tx that havent had at least 1 block to do analysis on
12:50:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> can choose to not mine*
12:52:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> <XMRBABY678> "I was asking because I was..." <- Feather comes configured with community run remote nodes
12:52:44 <spirobel[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "Node runner are free to run..." <- the same way mastodon instance hosters are free to not relay certain messages. Another good analogy is someone hosting an smtp server. The thing is: once the transactions have been included in a block the nodes have to relay it to stay useful. There are also ways to embed extra information in the transactions so it cant be pruned like with tx_extra.
12:53:07 <spirobel[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: okay blockchain karen
12:53:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ok karen karen
12:54:59 <Rucknium[m]> spirobel: I agree.
12:56:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Federation isnt the same as blockchain. As you yourself said, miners are the only once who can commit transactions. 
12:56:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Federated messages are "mined" by every "node" that sees then
12:57:09 <Rucknium[m]> I said changes to relay rules without a hardfork are a leaky sieve: https://libera.monerologs.net/monero/20230317#c220459
12:57:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> If the top 5 mining pools decide to conspire to block certain transactions on their nodes, it doesnt matter much if every other node relays them
12:58:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> Theyll be dropped from txpools before being commit to BC
13:00:48 <spirobel[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Federation isnt the same as blockchain. As you yourself said, miners are the only once who can commit transactions. 
13:00:48 <spirobel[m]> > 
13:00:48 <spirobel[m]> > Federated messages are "mined" by every "node" that sees then
13:00:48 <spirobel[m]> That is not what I said. Node operators are similar to people that run an smtp server or a mastodon instance. From the way you talk you sound exactly like this kind of mastodon hoster that wants to lay down some rules for his tiny little empire. So the behavior is the same too. 
13:01:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its not the same 
13:03:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> Blockchain: nodes dont commit transactions, only miners can make those "messages" permanant
13:03:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> federation: node operators all commit messages, not sure powerful ones, and the ones who censor end up missing messages. you either accept all, or dont get a full picture and are useless 
13:05:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> in blockchain: miners and _their_ nodes decide whether ordinals (etc) will make it from the tx pool > the blockchain 
13:06:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> 25000 other nodes can relay a tx. If the nodes being used for mining on dont accept it, it doesnt get commit to the network.
13:07:50 <spirobel[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: there are two social groups: people that mine (and to an extent that it matters) and people that just run node. the first group matters. The second group has no power. Glad they provide a service to the community, but if they decide to control their little turf, they can fuck off
15:13:50 * louissignet[m] uploaded an image: (396KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/monero.social/KOBungbRhINPClaQZxURERAp/Screenshot%202023-07-10%20at%2017.13.18.png >
15:14:40 <louissignet[m]> WEF Playbook for capturing "crypto" (a.k.a bitcoin & ethereum) happening unopposed right before our eyes.
15:17:48 <RavFX[m]> Yep, been a while I say it.
15:17:48 <RavFX[m]> Lightning Labs is not in you're chart! It's the people behind LN right?!?
15:17:49 <RavFX[m]> There right on the scammer website... : https://www.weforum.org/organizations/lightning-labs
15:21:05 <nioc> unopposed?  maybe even encouraged 
15:21:11 <nioc> NGU  \o/
15:56:17 <Guest98> i read this here https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/13988/does-compiling-with-march-native-bring-a-measurable-performance-improvement-f
15:56:43 <Guest98> but i dont know what to compile monero or xmrig with flag -march=native
16:18:58 <hyc> what performance are you trying to improve? most of the hard part of the mining is all done in machine language, there's nothing for the compiler to optimize
16:27:28 <Guest98> mining performance
16:45:33 <Guest98> when you read link jtgrassie  says that compiling with -march=native helps
16:45:47 <Guest98> where to add this
16:54:26 <sech1> It doesn't help
16:56:02 <sech1> AES support is checked at runtime. Everything else is already in assembly, so compiler can't do much.
16:59:38 <hyc> I just  told him that :P
17:00:10 <Guest98> so that link is saying smth wrong
17:02:44 <sech1> That link is saying that compiler can enable AES if it's not enabled by default
17:03:06 <sech1> Monero compiles AES versions even on CPUs which don't support it - it's then checked at runtime
17:03:39 <sech1> Yes, in general, -march=native can improve performance. But not with Monero mining.
17:16:17 <tux> hello how long is pruning an existing 150GB blockchain supposed to take? 
17:16:25 <tux> It's been running since yesterday haha
17:17:33 <tux> actually I am a certifiable idiot, I can safely delete monero since a proper server is ready now
17:18:03 <tux> when I said I can delete monero, I meant both blockchains. PC Wallet is empty anyway. Sorry for spamming.
17:20:50 <ceetee[m]> Enabling pruning does not reduce the size of existing downloaded blockchain. Instead it marks space in the database as available, and will not grow in size until the pruned blockchain is larger then your current file
17:25:18 <tux> ceetee[m]: I meant the monero-blockchain-prune application
17:27:00 <tux> from what I understand there are 3 options. The first one is what you said, the third one actually reduces the size of an existing blockchain db 
17:27:19 <ceetee[m]> I didn't know there was a separate program, I only know the prune command in monerod
17:30:16 <tux> ceetee[m]: I might be wrong. I can't find the stackexchange post regarding this in my history anymore sorry. 
17:31:00 <tux> but the command definitely exists (under linux for me) whereis monero-blockchain-prune
17:31:03 <tux> monero-blockchain-prune: /usr/bin/monero-blockchain-prune
17:41:02 <nioc> Deleting the chain and syncing from the beginning takes about the same amount of time as pruning an existing chain 
17:41:50 <nioc> Syncing with the prune flag from the beginning ***
18:58:35 <selsta> 19:41 <nioc> Deleting the chain and syncing from the beginning takes about the same amount of time as pruning an existing chain  <-- not anymore after mooo did optimizations
18:58:48 <selsta> but I'm not sure if that's included in the latest release
18:59:16 <nioc> selsta: thx, what is in the next release?
18:59:41 <selsta> https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/8503
18:59:44 <selsta> only in master so far
21:35:18 <Guest98> how to check if aes is enabled when i'm mining on linux