11:47:24 Honestly a good article on the evolution of "maximalism" on Bitcoin. Some history lessons could be applied in Monero: https://blog.lopp.net/history-of-bitcoin-maximalism/ 11:54:18 "Honestly a good article on the..." <- Examples on what sorts of lessons could be applied to XMR? 11:54:42 Creation of maximas 11:54:59 - “have fun being spied” 11:55:25 - “perpetual privacy” 11:56:38 I don't see how these are bad? These maxims do not confuse Monero users, as Monero was always about privacy on doing the digital cash part. 11:57:08 The maxims of NGU with maximalism are cringe, and stupid, because bitcoin wasn't always about muh store of vlue 11:57:10 *value 11:57:12 I mean read it and reach your own conclusion. I found it valuable 11:57:25 Alright. 11:57:37 To the contrary. I find the creation of maximas as something positive 11:57:46 k4r4b3y[m]: we need to disrupt this cycle of retardation. Neither Bitcoin nor Monero have a self sustaining economy that creates value. 11:57:55 and nobody talks about it 11:57:55 Also the creation of cultural aspects 11:59:37 k4r4b3y[m]: nobody is going to be the next marc zukerbug by buying and holding Bitcoin or Monero. But people still act like they will. 12:02:03 spirobel[m]: I agree the part with bitcoiners doing what you say here. But I am not seeing Monero users acting as 100x'ing their "investments". Maybe I should spend more time on the twitter echo chamber. If anything, Monero users act as if they are going to be the next ballers, the anti-globohomo pirates, and freedom fighters, which they will indeed be. 12:03:09 And this, I propose, should be the cultural kernel that feeds the "Monero Extremism." 12:03:52 Lmao nobody in Monero is acting like that (zuck dreaming) 12:04:02 k4r4b3y[m]: We should make an inventory of the Monero supply chain and see what we have so far: a bunch of illegal shit, coffee from Guatemala, plushies from aliexpress and that is it. If we dont expand this and build an actual supply chain around stuff that matters, we are fucked. 12:04:35 louissignet[m]: yeah because its a taboo to say it loudly ... but subconsciously, people still dream. 12:04:43 Beer and Tea in Prag 12:04:46 spirobel[m]: No I agree. But a day at a time, fella. 12:05:28 I 100% don’t see it as NgU tech but NsP ( number stay private ) tech 12:05:41 k4r4b3y[m]: wrong attitude. I know rome was not built in one day, but there was a concerted effort to build it. And currently this effort does not exist. Monerochans temple wont manifest itself. 12:06:43 Let's be the monopoly in the darknet markets. Let's be the number one choice of the "gift card economy". Let's be the go-to solution to excess energy, and stranded energy source consumers (think solar and wind). Let's be the use-choice of the peer to peer agora markets (neveko, openbazaar, etc.). 12:07:33 spirobel[m]: I disagree. Many new distrobuted markets in development. Many new businesses accepting xmr. 12:10:05 spirobel[m]: How would you describe what you want to see here? 12:12:48 "Let's be the monopoly in the..." <- the only way businesses get really big and make people rich is by having an aspect of rent seeking to it. The whole concept of agorism is very against the idea of rent seeking. To move forward we need to solve this paradox: How can an anti rent seeking capitalist ideology capture a large part of the economy that is dominated by big rent seeking companies? People are too blinded to even 12:12:48 consider this problem. 12:13:26 Hmm.. Interesting formulation. 12:13:37 k4r4b3y[m]: more willingness to face reality. And realize the magnitude of the problem. 12:13:55 spirobel[m]: Do you think "bitcoiners" have an answer to that? 12:15:20 k4r4b3y[m]: absolutely not. But Moneroers also dont. 12:18:30 Can you explain how agorism is in conflict with rent-seeking enterprises? When you say "rent-seeking" what do you have in mind? 12:25:35 "Can you explain how agorism is..." <- Every successful business has a moat. And this moat often depends on the violence of the state. In the form of using copyright, patents and ip laws to defend something that the business acquired control over. Even to force employees and business partners to abide by contractual obligations is depended on the state. Many in our circle love the free market and capitalism and have this 12:25:35 reductive view of businesses as these wonderful things that provide value and therefore are fairly rewarded for this value. But in reality it is more complex. And the extraction of this value in the way it is currently done is not possible without the state. Agorist businesses cant depend on the state. So we need to create a whole new framework for how value can be create in this setting. So far I see nothing and no efforts made in this 12:25:35 regard. 12:26:49 Because Moneros whole value proposition is Monery without the state. So we also need to have value creation without the state. 12:26:55 s/Monery/Money/ 12:27:28 What about Silk Road? Back in the day, it was able to capture a lot of monetary value from its own platform, without the state's coercion, or without the patent laws, etc.. 12:28:54 k4r4b3y[m]: yeah its almost like a state like structure started to develop around this market. With identities, rules and regulations, rituals, a certain form of a "public" in the forum. But we all know how it ended. 12:30:33 We need to develop this further and make it less risky. But its not easy. 12:30:34 * We need to develop this further and make it less risky. But it is not easy. 12:30:56 I mean could you imagine a world where the electronics supply chain is run through something like silkroad? 12:31:04 this is the world we need to create. 12:35:51 imagine you buy your cpu design from a darknet vendor and send it off to a shadow fab ... and get your iot products assembled in some underground robot farm ... It sounds completely deluded. But something like this needs to become reality. Otherwise the whole concept of Monero is flawed. If this vision of Money without state is better and less corrupt than what we currently have, then this kind of thing needs to become reality. 12:45:08 There's a lot of stuff that needs to be done to truly keep computing and networking decentralized on that level. 12:45:08 Fabbing your own CPUs doesn't seem realistic ATM. There was this guy on YouTube that somehow happens to have all the equipment to do it- and it's pretty impressive what he made himself... But it's actually a microprocessor because it isn't at the level of modern computers. 12:45:08 https://youtu.be/IS5ycm7VfXg 12:47:48 Check these podcasts: https://vonupodcast.com/ ad https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/mortified-penguin there are already many people with agorist businesses. E.g. a "3D printer" for medicine: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/mortified-penguin/episodes/Episode-25-Dr--Michael-Laufer-e1a9gls (https://fourthievesvinegar.org/) 12:47:54 s/ad/and/ 12:49:55 bridgerton[m]: > <@bridgerton:matrix.org> There's a lot of stuff that needs to be done to truly keep computing and networking decentralized on that level. 12:49:55 > Fabbing your own CPUs doesn't seem realistic ATM. There was this guy on YouTube that somehow happens to have all the equipment to do it- and it's pretty impressive what he made himself... But it's actually a microprocessor because it isn't at the level of modern computers. 12:49:55 > https://youtu.be/IS5ycm7VfXg 12:49:55 I totally agree. It is not realistic currently. It is also very telling how hard it is for him to get the chemicals. You basically need a professional address to get these chemicals shipped to you. Like photoresists etc. So there would have to be a network of people that all try to build their own shadow fabs and tackle a different part of the supply chain / process. 12:51:06 "It's not realistic currently." So, what would you like to see when you 12:51:07 anarkiocrypto[m]: I listen to this sometimes. But it seems like they are mostly living off the grid and doing hippie stuff. 12:51:46 k4r4b3y[m]: > <@k4r4b3y:karapara.net> "It's not realistic currently." So, what would you like to see when you 12:51:46 say, "I am not seeing a concerted effort in this direction" [I paraphrase] ? 12:53:51 k4r4b3y[m]: I would like to see people that take it seriously. I dont want to live in the forest somewhere and do hippie stuff. That is not enticing to me. 12:59:04 helo 13:14:24 * louissignet[m] uploaded an image: (1254KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/monero.social/eTADiRFbAuoPkdOsJIZwHtfB/Screenshot%202023-07-24%20at%2015.11.46.png > 13:14:40 This is Bitcoin and "clearcoin" users in the future 13:16:33 so the narrative is: Monero wins because people get robbed insert snuff movie / story here ? 13:17:18 a reasonable media consumer has an internal filter for these kinds of stories 13:17:21 yes, it is extremely darwinian out there 13:18:37 This whole "winning" thing seems unnecessary to me. Is this really a winner takes all market? 13:19:00 I'm just happy with Monero "winning" just meaning it's the most private. 13:19:18 louissignet[m]: > <@louis.signet:monero.social> This is Bitcoin and "clearcoin" users in the future 13:19:18 I would like to stress, there won't be bitcoin/clearcoin "users" in the future. Bitcoin cannot and is not able to handle the current usage load on its network. Both onchain, and LN. So, most "bitcoiners" will be using custodial LN solutions which allow you to play with btc IOU's internally. 13:20:33 louissignet[m]: i'm happy in general with the existence of an actually private, digital cash, money that is used by people. That happens to be monero 13:20:59 louissignet[m]: > <@louis.signet:monero.social> I'm just happy with Monero "winning" just meaning it's the most private. 13:20:59 I am happy with Monero "winning" in which btc is just a meme hoarding ponzi scheme coin, and Monero gets passed around daily for both electronic and physical products/services. 13:21:22 Good question. What is winning for starters. 13:24:48 The focus in Bitcoin land and in Moneroland is too much on: buy this magic coin to protect you from X horrible thing. Here watch this fear porn. Now buy coin. This is basically the gold vendor selling to gold bugs script. 13:25:34 Then you have the libertarian in the south American forest script: freedom blablabla, second passport, taxes, gubbernment, buy this magic coin for freedom. 13:26:33 spirobel[m]: > <@spirobel:monero.social> The focus in Bitcoin land and in Moneroland is too much on: buy this magic coin to protect you from X horrible thing. Here watch this fear porn. Now buy coin. This is basically the gold vendor selling to gold bugs script. 13:26:33 Yeah, I see that, too. Have you seen LunarMining's talk recently? She was also stressing that this doom & gloom narrative has to switch to a one that is positive, and stressing instead the "freedom" spaces that use of Monero (and anonymity tech) brings with. 13:26:43 So you have a variation of the gold bugs story and a jim jones light 13:28:48 this is the video that I talk about: https://watch.web3privacy.info/session/sessionriseanon-lunarpunkandmemeticwarfare 13:30:03 I can agree with the gist of it. Instead of taking action out of fear, we should paint a picture of "new, more free, and novel ways of acting" that Monero allows its users. 13:30:29 k4r4b3y[m]: This is the whole solarpunk vs cypherpunk narratives 13:30:38 One is preparing for heaven, the other for hel 13:30:44 s/hel/hell/ 13:30:48 Both equally important IMO 13:31:20 But this also means you probably want to put some money in the solarpunk tech (eth at the moment) even if your values are more aligned with cypherpunk 13:31:26 I think in the video link I posted aobve, Rachel Rose offers a nice synthesis between solarpunk vs cypherpunk, which is Lunarpunk. 13:31:53 k4r4b3y[m]: they say many right things. But darkfi sounds like some sadomaso kink. And many of the concepts are very abstract and complex. 13:32:04 Lunarpunk still carries the serious attitude of cypherpunk, but with the positive-future-looking attitude of solarpunk. 13:32:52 louissignet[m]: vitalik and his digital identity stuff is spooky. WEF tier garbage. 13:33:14 they kiss the ring in the hopes they wont be deemed an unregistered security ... 13:33:43 lets see if it works ... I wont make a bet on it ... have better things to do with my life ... 13:34:27 Correct, still probably gonna capture most of the money accrual over time. Good pumponomics. 13:35:32 I changed my mind on ETH after Monerokon. The founder of institute of cryptoanarchy is an ethereum core member. This tells me they are not completely lost after all. 19:16:39 Hi. What is the minimum system requirements for running a Moreno node? 19:43:06 I read on internet 4gb. Wondering if that is enough given real experience 19:46:28 running a node for yourself does not require much: 19:46:28 Any modern CPU, 2GB total system ram (on a light Linux distro), and 50GB hard drive for a pruned chain. Some people even run one on an old android phone. 19:46:28 If you want good performance or have a helpful contribution to the network, you better have 4GB ram (8GB on windows) and 150GB SSD storage for the full blockchain. SSD is important for fast random IO. 19:47:38 Avoid old CPUs without building AES instructions (raspberry pi 4 lacks them) and avoid HDD or SD card storage, both have a huge performance impact 19:47:59 s/building/build-in/ 19:49:10 Yes am willing to open it to the public. 19:49:10 So looks like 4gb. Anyone knows a cheap vps or dedicated machines that are safe and accept monero? 19:49:41 is a thin client ok? 19:50:25 What you mean? I was thinking of ssh connection 19:52:45 for a node is ok a thin client? 19:53:18 zippy: I got myself a HP prodesk 600 with an i5-6500T exactly for this purpose. Cost me 100€ + 40€ for a 1TB M.2 SSD. Best bang per buck according to my research 19:55:50 "Yes am willing to open it to the..." <- > <@edge7:matrix.org> Yes am willing to open it to the public. 19:55:50 > So looks like 4gb. Anyone knows a cheap vps or dedicated machines that are safe and accept monero? 19:55:50 There are a lot of people running nodes on VPS, but imho this centralizes the network in a few data centers which I consider suboptimal. 19:55:50 Plus I like my wallet to sync without connecting over the internet 19:58:17 I am worried that running it in my lan would mean having problems exposing my node to Internet. I mean I don't have public ip neither I control the open port well with my isp 19:59:55 tried prestium? 20:00:16 "for a node is ok a thin client?" <- See above. Anyway if you say client people might misunderstand 20:02:08 I haven't made mine public either. I'm not yet skilled enough with Linux and networking and stuff 20:03:29 * don't have fixed public ip 20:04:00 Ok, so your one just sync and then your wallet connects to it and thats it? 20:11:28 yeah, exactly. Used to have it on my main PC, but only running when I need it. Want to get more into self hosting and thought this would be a good start 20:15:56 Ok. It can be a start. But would like to open it to the public 20:23:19 same 😅 20:41:09 "yeah, exactly. Used to have it..." <- I'm also trying to get into the self-hosting game. Where is the manifesto for newbies? What services are most worth the self-hosting troubles? 20:42:35 Monerod 20:44:09 ofrnxmr: thanks captain obvious 20:44:09 besides that want local contacts, calendar, todos, notes, and general file sync for now. 20:44:55 Nextcloud 20:46:46 No problem sargeant! 20:49:49 Nextcloud seems overly complicated but it gets mentioned so much I guess I gotta retry 20:53:37 I dont use it. Monero Offtopic i use stuff like kdeconnect, syncthing, jellyfin, 21:24:10 Try seafile less bloated and as proper e2ee