00:06:11 Thank you it works again 00:29:50 <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Ctrl alt defeat 01:12:54 Yeah, Monerodocs is kinda dead now. 01:12:55 Click a link in the page -> connection has timed out 15:44:56 Hi, friends. A few questions for those of y'all more-versed in Monero's structure: 15:44:56 1. If an entity ran 50%+ of the Monero nodes, could they effectively deanonymize txs? 15:44:57 2. If yes to #1, has there been much discussion historically about mitigating this by mandating that nodes also have a fixed amount of Monero at stake? 15:44:57 3. If yes to #1, would this be changed with the integration of Seraphis? 15:44:58 Thanks in advance for your input. 15:49:40 trustthyself: 1) No. Monero transaction privacy is protected by cryptography (and a little bit of statistics), not node network graph topology. 15:49:47 1. Depends on other details. 15:50:20 The more nodes you run, the more chances you have of being the first hop in a tx being relayed to the network. 15:50:51 If you're the first node to be, then you know the IP address it was created from. Of course, it could be a tor node, or some other proxy. 15:51:08 You cannot know whether you're the first node, however. 15:52:01 So it's always a guessing game. But the more nodes you have, with higher connectivity to the rest of the network, the more you can guess you're the first node the furst time you see a tx. 15:52:16 50% is not a particularly interesting threshold here, 15:53:17 Hence why Dandelion++ is now utilized -- to make that IP-based tracking/timing more difficult. 15:53:18 If you have 100% of the network minus one node, then you can definitely know you're the first node, but all it gives you is the source IP. You do not get info on, say, which output is being spent. 15:53:47 Though I suppose if there's only two monero users ever, you and the victim, it doesn't matter, you can guess in other ways :) 15:54:37 So "deanonymize" is not a good enough standard. You have to define what you mean by that. 15:54:50 I see. So not all the tx details can be discerned by having a majority of the node count, but the likelihood of ascertaining the location (per IP address) is increased, unless the person is using Tor or some other means. 15:54:59 Sure. Yes, "deanonymize" is admittedly broad. 15:55:01 Right. 15:55:52 I am trying to understand how much, if any, one entity having 50%+ of Monero nodes would/could compromise or mitigate the privacy features of Monero tx. 15:57:35 Even if you know for sure that a tx comes from an IP address, that tx has very little information. It hides the value of the tx with confidential transactions, the receiver with stealth addresses, and partially hides the sender with ring signatures. 15:59:45 Anyway, you can read the original Dandelion++ paper. It may have a formula you can apply. There was a paper written last year that tried some simulations with D++. Unfortunately that paper had very unrealistic transaction volumes. I write my criticisms of the paper in #monero-research-lab:monero.social and talked with one of the authors there...in December 2022 and January 2023 I think. 15:59:52 You can consider a user loading a web page on an amazon hosted web server. If you can see all that's going on at the ISP level, you can tell the user initiated a given SSL connection to an amazon server, but after that you don't know which web server it was to, what page was loaded, etc. 16:00:05 Similar thing here. You see a use was made, but not what that use was. 16:00:20 Ok, so because of this, question #2 above likely hasn't gotten much discussion? It's not seen as being needed. 16:00:21 if you want to get a specific number on the 50%. 16:01:04 Requiring monero to be able to use monero is counterproductive. 16:01:52 So, per question #3 above, it'd increase privacy for the sender (as it wouldn't be 1 of 16). 16:02:02 It'd also push towards centralization: nodes that have monero to use a collateral becoming proxies for others and being able to MITM them. 16:02:39 What is "it" in "it'd increase privacy for the sender" ? 16:03:45 trustthyself: No 16:04:15 Ring signatures and D++ (or any defenses against node network analysis) are completely separate things. 16:04:58 Logs about that paper: https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-research-lab/20221207#c174465 16:05:13 https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-research-lab/20230109 16:08:07 The "it" referring to Seraphis. 16:24:53 trustthyself: Yes, Seraphis is supposed to increase sender anonymity by increasing ring size to 128 or more. But the Seraphis proposal does not intend to change anything about how nodes operate and connect with each other AFAIK. 16:26:16 Gotcha. Ok, I appreciate y'all input to my questions. 16:27:31 Really neat to hear that the cryptography is not compromised if a majority of nodes are held by one entity. That sure differs from the way some other crypto networks function. 16:30:14 trustthyself: Which crypto networks do you mean? 16:32:36 Well I think any crypto network that has staked masternodes, for example. 16:32:41 But they have the staking as a way to mitigate one entity from running 50%+ of masternodes. 16:34:28 It does not mitigate. It does the opposite... 16:35:04 It prevents many newcomers from gaining a foothold, letting the original scammers hog most of the nodes. 16:36:11 Well, not "prevent", but "protect against". It's not foolproof of course, but an extra force preventing decentralization. 16:36:35 By "mitigate" I mean that the cost involved creates a disincentive to acquire more and more staked nodes. 16:40:24 Yes, your criticism of that model is apt. Tradeoffs with any model, I suppose. 17:14:51 POS is just a way for those who already hold most of the wealth to get even more. It's a bit like how hedge funds and federal reserve interest rate manipulation work to continually concentrate wealth in the hands of those who already have it, but POS is automated. 17:25:50 <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Reset counter for pos comment 17:37:51 Hear me out... Car insurance but on the blockchain via a smart contract 17:38:56 We could eventually insure other iteme.. washing machine.. the list is endless really 17:54:05 not until my pancakes are insured on chain 17:57:52 insure deez nuts ha goteem 18:50:37 <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Question how come you never see on monero twatter aka x post about css being funded or shill css stuff? 19:00:34 you do 19:00:56 https://twitter.com/search?q=monero%20ccs&src=typed_query 21:02:46 It's interesting how strongly people resist the knowledge that trying to restrict access to their cryptographic tech might be part of the reason it's not as popular as they'd like (to say nothing of all the technical reasons to avoid it). 21:02:51 https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/my-final-day-at-ecc/45398 21:04:30 "Zcash has some of the best tech, other projects figured that out and use it… for free. What does Zcash get back? (Rhetorical question)" <- bitching about others learning from something you did, with an obvious "you should pay us money" vibe, is counterproductive, especially in cypherpunk space 21:05:57 probly some wallstreet normie 21:06:16 "The best technical minds aren’t always the best marketing minds…" 21:06:17 marketing and technical are polar opposites 21:14:01 they don't operate in the cypherpunk space tho. they're in the VC-funded tech-startup openo-source-but-not-really space 21:14:42 companies will do what companies do 22:40:34 apotheon: scientific knowledge comes from sharing, not selling. People have forgotten this. 22:41:58 indeed 22:43:15 I'm increasingly of the opinion that all privacy-oriented cryptographic software should be distributed anonymously and give exactly zero damns about legal crap like copyright and patent laws. 22:44:34 If that gets normalized, no amount of stupid licensing and attempts to prioritize payment over utility will have a real effect. 22:45:12 distributed with all source code made available, that is 22:46:26 people havent forgotten it. they just don't particularly care about spreading knowledge 22:47:08 intelectual 'property' is already normalized for hundreds of years 22:47:14 patent, copyright 22:49:33 Piracy is the answer. 22:49:53 I agree. 22:50:32 it should be self-evident that ideas are only valuable when they're shared. if you think of a novel idea and never tell anyone, then you have zero impact on the world 22:52:09 The challenge is sustaining a project with large impact and zero funding. 22:53:18 louipc: If we take Zcash devs at face value, they do care about the greatest tools, and spreading knowledge is necessary for that. Of course, I don't really take their grandiloquent statements at face value; you're right, of course. 22:54:13 hyc: I appreciate your evidently strong ethic in this regard. 22:55:01 gravimatrix: I think it's more fair to say the challenge is stepping outside the common "intellectual property" assumptions and use other funding models that fit the project's needs. 22:55:10 Monero is doing an okay job of that. 22:55:20 apotheon: zcash's tech is a marvel, no doubt about it. Still useless if not shared far and wide. 22:55:38 Much of Zcash tech is basically borrowed from others, anyway. 22:55:55 All our advances are on the backs of others. 22:56:16 apotheon: True. that's the reason why I'm here. Looking for solutions regarding crowd-funding. We have an interesting project to share with the world. 22:56:25 I don't mean to minimize what they did, but it's foolish to pretend you're not standing on the shoulders of giants, as they say. 22:59:07 gravimatrix: What kind of project is it? 22:59:53 (. . . or are you talking about Monero?) 23:01:14 apotheon: alternative propulsion tech 23:02:07 we got gravity control tech. And no funds to develop it (unless we sell out to the military or corporate greed). 23:10:29 gravimatrix: sounds fun 23:10:41 no idea how to fund that 23:11:40 well, I saw Kim .com did something recently, with bitcoin cash... it's behind cloudflare or something, can't even create an account. 23:11:42 probably have a hard time getting DARPA funding, too 23:12:04 ah, Cloudflare, the universal MITM 23:12:13 :( 23:12:53 I'm pretty sure the military industrial complex path for that would be one of a few options: 23:13:17 1. get hired as an engineer, and let the major military contractor get the patents 23:14:01 2. stumble into a meeting with someone at a major military contractor and prove it's real, then watch as the contractor "independently" develops it and patents it 23:14:14 3. be wealthy as fuck with connections 23:15:08 Pretty much every other project like this gone through those paths. 23:15:11 no judgement from me on whether it actually works or not, of course; well outside my expertise 23:15:46 I'm off to a meeting. Ta. (no, it's not a military industrial complex meeting of any kind) 23:15:59 lol, thanks god