00:00:58 Kubutu and openSUSE are probably the biggest and best-supported (per docs, user guides, forums etc) 00:02:56 oh looks like Plasma 6 just released last month, i should spin up a VM to check it out... 00:04:56 arch ftw 00:05:39 classic arch user 😏 00:06:16 they still building all their packages with every compile-time flag enabled? 😂 00:06:52 Plasma is like the most well integrated option imo (the one that suck the less) 00:06:52 Except if you want a tiling manager, that's another can of worm 00:08:02 i hadnt used KDE since pre-Plasma days until i got a Steam Deck around the holidays 00:08:10 it is actually pretty nice nowadays 00:08:29 used to be a lot jankier as its development cycle isn't as tightly integrated as GNOME's 00:08:43 so it'd only be a few months before jank creeped in and ruined the UX 00:10:05 they ask you now :D 00:10:25 that's progress! 00:10:53 arch is a good intermediate distro, i would hesitate to recommend it to someone just coming from a proprietary OS tho 00:11:11 but i also haven't touched it in ages so i wonder how they've improved overall 00:15:59 For someone with less experience I would recommend Artix instead of Arch. 00:15:59 Better installer That partition and encrypt the drive properly for a thing. 00:15:59 And alternative choiceS for the Init 01:13:40 The arch cloud image for a vm seems to be pretty easy to use 01:14:04 Not much to setup 01:21:55 <123bob123:matrix.org> Artix is way easier then arch install 01:22:03 <123bob123:matrix.org> Fck chroot 01:25:18 Yeah, for a noob it's as easy as the classical next, next, next, reboot 01:31:29 <123bob123:matrix.org> I dont have to remember to change boot device 😬 01:48:34 EndeavourOS is also nice 01:51:56 <123bob123:matrix.org> Apple like 09:09:28 Can anyone care to address my concerns for XMR? 09:09:28 1) Increased government restriction. If governments required XMR users to share their view key after tracking people who ping XMR nodes through internet service providers, how would XMR continue running? 09:09:28 2) Centralized developer team. If all the developers were compromised and a poisoned XMR codebase was released, we could technically fork XMR and use something else, but trust for the coin would cease to exist. 09:09:29 3) Lack of liquidity. Biggest problem in my view. Even with DEX solutions, going from XMR -> Cash or XMR -> Goods and vice versa is difficult. A circular economy is unfeasible because of my 1st point as the coin would eventually get regulated forcibly if it ever becomes big. 09:12:12 I'm from the Bitcoin camp. I believe regulated coins are the future and that cypherpunk ideals are unrealistic. XMR already has a bad rap and I am not sure how the coin can overcome the concerns I listed. 09:13:29 1. This is completely unrealistic and worst case ill put my node behind tor or vpn to armenia. 09:13:44 1) You can always run your XMR node in a crypto-friendly country and connect to it through VPN/Tor 09:14:21 even the hollywood mafia with all their layers cant fight piracy and they have a financial incentive to do so 09:14:36 even the hollywood mafia with all their lawyers cant fight piracy and they have a financial incentive to do so 09:14:50 2) All development and source code is public. It takes one person out of the whole world to find any poison and ring the alarm bells before release 09:14:58 I understand. Is this the Daniel Kim argument? It is impossible for XMR to be banned in all countries because if it is, another country has the incentive to use XMR for gains? 09:15:11 3) LocalMonero and DEXes are the future 09:15:22 also just look at tor, developed by the feds, used by the feds 09:15:25 the feds also use monero 09:15:26 1 - yes, it's basic game theory 09:15:59 >I believe regulated coins are the future and that cypherpunk ideals are unrealistic. 09:16:03 and i believe the regulated coins future is a joke 09:16:33 well, technically it's true - CBDCs are coming 09:16:39 I am not convinced by DEX solutions. I have seen all the DEX solutions that were attempted on BTC for almost a decade now and all were either regulated or do not have sufficient liquidity for extremely large amounts. 09:16:39 congrats, theyve turned bitcoin into a speculative asset and nothing more 09:16:55 those weren't real DEX 09:17:00 if regulation is accepted, its 100% captured in a few years 09:17:05 you can't regulate something that has no centralized governance 09:17:16 wizbiz: 09:17:40 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/rumnEctibWdYdUMsjCbykZDF 09:17:50 thorchain is a real dex and has a fuckton of liquidity 09:19:29 <123bob123:matrix.org> This is going to turn into name calling 09:19:42 <123bob123:matrix.org> I predict 10 blocks ahead 09:20:18 i prefer good arguments. we actually have those. 09:20:55 No. I apologize for the NGU idiots in the BTC community. I have been apart of BTC for long time now and I am sick of this bullshit. I see potential for XMR but it contains too many pitfalls. 09:21:15 weve got an answer for nearly every concern :D 09:21:32 Thorchian does not solve the problem of Crypto -> Cash or Crypto -> Goods 09:21:40 Thorchain does not solve the problem of Crypto -> Cash or Crypto -> Goods 09:21:48 you can use haveno for crypto -> cash 09:21:55 <123bob123:matrix.org> See point 2 is valid for btc 09:21:56 (once live) 09:22:22 Yes but this goes back to my problem of extremely large amounts. Cash by mail for $50 million is not possible. 09:22:35 <123bob123:matrix.org> Btc core is 3 or 5 people? That can push code? 09:22:45 i know someone who can probably get you that 09:23:08 You can find ways to wash that amount if you really have $50million 09:24:54 "Bad rap" again. Why do I have to engage in criminal activity to withdraw large amounts? With BTC, I can now easily withdraw with trusted CEX like Coinbase that is financially regulated and trusted. 09:26:03 Then don't engage in criminal activity? Fly legally to a jurisdiction where it's lax. Or use Kraken or other CEX. You can always pay taxes. 09:26:33 Even if you cashed out/received bank transfers from P2P trades. 09:26:37 Bitcoin core has vested interests with many, many companies and organizations like MIT who fund development. I am not sure about XMR with suspicious CCS funds... 09:27:18 <123bob123:matrix.org> Suspicious how? 09:27:32 These organizations keep the developers in check. Banks are also becoming involved as BTC becomes more integrated with financial services. 09:27:33 <123bob123:matrix.org> Know one knows who sent what 09:27:58 CCS funds are distributed for specific proposals with clearly defined goals 09:28:13 So yes, they also "keep developers in check", but in a good way 09:28:22 because proposals are formulated by devs themselves 09:28:27 <123bob123:matrix.org> Co opting by vc is not good 09:28:30 oh great, the banks keep your devs of "freedom fuck the banks coin" in check 09:28:56 <123bob123:matrix.org> We have ofrn for compliance 09:29:12 <123bob123:matrix.org> Monero conpliance officer 09:29:17 <123bob123:matrix.org> Monero compliance officer 09:29:54 Hal Finney knew that BTC would become involved with banks and the coin was eventually going to be potentially used as a large settlement layer. Satoshi abandoned development after the WikiLeaks incident as the "hornet's nest" was kicked. I know my history about BTC and the "fuck banks coin" is rubbish. 09:30:40 Satoshi did not want to anger law enforcement and this XMR coin does the complete opposite. 09:30:47 bitcoin isnt even trying to be a currency anymore, the insano maxis even gave up on lightning turned their back on satoshi after the emails revealed hes an evil big blocker 09:30:58 bitcoin isnt even trying to be a currency anymore, the insano maxis even gave up on lightning and turned their back on satoshi after the emails revealed hes an evil big blocker 09:31:00 <123bob123:matrix.org> I thought btc was meant to be de banking ? 09:31:24 its built to survive this 09:33:31 BTC was meant to allow payments without going through an institution. "Bank" was only mentioned 2 times in the original whitepaper to explain examples. Banks can still be involved with BTC, but this does not mean that payments are going through an institutional layer... 09:35:37 “It's pretty strange really that we all see a good chance that bitcoins will hit a dollar in the relatively near future. How many investments can be expected to triple in value in that time frame? Is gold going to be $3500 any time soon? Apple stock going to triple? Maybe Facebook, if you could get some. That seems like a pretty sure thing. We are really lucky to be in at the be 09:35:37 ginning of a possibly explosive new phenomenon. Considering the odds against most money-tripling investments, Bitcoin looks like a good place for a percentage of your portfolio.” 09:35:37 - Hal Finney 09:35:38 BTC can be both a currency and a coin that preserves value. No one gave up on lightning and developments are still happening. 09:36:19 As a business owner I can't risk accepting BTC. 09:36:19 <123bob123:matrix.org> Do you like ordinals too? 09:36:23 >No one gave up on lightning 09:36:30 have you seen bitcoin twitter? 09:36:35 <123bob123:matrix.org> Chain split 09:36:41 I'm not sure how this turned into an argument between BTC and XMR. I just wanted my concerns addressed and I was given disappointing answers I already read on the Reddit. 09:36:53 I opened r/bitcoin yesterday, that's a terrifying sight 09:37:06 <123bob123:matrix.org> I think you had your mind already made up 09:37:08 What other concerns you have? 09:37:12 Everyone only cares about the price, 100% NGU retards there 09:37:23 Old users of Bitcoin do not use that Reddit channel. We have a place that I will not name. 09:37:25 <123bob123:matrix.org> Point 2 - co opt btc core 09:37:31 <123bob123:matrix.org> Push bs code 09:37:32 its worse than r/dogecoin, at least that is sometimes funny 09:37:54 what's that secret place? https://bitcointalk.org/ ? 09:38:04 <123bob123:matrix.org> Yeah 09:38:14 I can say the same about r/xmrtrader. Everyone there thinks exchanges are "suppressing" the price of XMR and that it will soon pump. Ridiculous. 09:38:28 its a containment sub, not the main one 09:38:31 No. Bitcoinforum is a place for advertising gambling sites and bots. 09:38:47 at least the suppression theory has a pile of evidence to support it 09:39:02 if you frequent r/xmrtrader, they do post evidence periodically 09:39:11 <123bob123:matrix.org> ^ 09:39:36 I think this is the most hilarious coping mechanism I have seen. There is no suppression and the evidence is hand-wavy. 09:39:54 Wasn't there a similar issue with XMR NFTs and bloat? 09:40:01 <123bob123:matrix.org> Nope 09:40:02 No 09:40:10 <123bob123:matrix.org> Got nuked cause we didnt want it 09:40:13 so you're saying Binance has enough XMR in their reserves, and the "withdrawal closed" are just because they have problems with wallet? Naive 09:40:18 <123bob123:matrix.org> Chain bloat 09:40:20 that was a proof of concept to point out an issue 09:40:23 that issue was resolved 09:40:45 but bitcoin may never ever fork 09:40:47 OK. You win for that argument. I do like the frequent changes and upgrades to XMR. I do wish BTC was similar in that respect. 09:40:48 <123bob123:matrix.org> It did help with tx_extra size limit 09:41:24 thing is, if NFTs make any sense at all, they do so on bitcoin with data on-chain 09:41:48 and it even helps make it a tiny bit more realistic that bitcoin could survive without any block rewards 09:42:33 i think its hilarious how starkly some people are against them 09:42:42 Binance has too many reserves and you can track them on CMC. I am not sure why withdrawals close, but if Binance was manipulating XMR it would have been mentioned in the lawsuit with the SEC, so stop this bullshit. 09:42:48 the stuff with the CVE was peak pettiness 09:43:12 Binance never published their XMR reserves 09:43:13 they literally showed the wrong chart on CMC 09:43:16 only for monero 09:43:25 and CMC is owned by Binance, surprise surprise 09:43:29 they can show _anything_ there 09:43:30 Tail emissions are fantastic and there are talks in the BTC community to address this issue of transaction fee rewards. 09:43:57 lawsuit with SEC? XMR is not a security 09:44:01 Why wasn't this included in the SEC lawsuit? Bullshit is why. 09:44:04 SEC don't care 09:44:07 which would annihilate the inflation is le bad meme 09:44:20 people have built their entire lives around muh 21 million 09:45:37 you cant tell someone "uhm, actually we were wrong and bitcoin is going to die without inflation" after they were told 21 million for 20 years 09:45:40 <123bob123:matrix.org> Whats happening for craig wrong. 09:45:46 We do not think inflation is bad. I understand why you think this as the NGU community have loud mouths. Basic economics suggests deflation is bad and I hope the contribution by banks will persuade changes to this supply cap. 09:45:48 <123bob123:matrix.org> With* 09:46:08 No one cares about this fraud. 09:46:24 so what is left for bitcoin if not NGU and capped suppl,y? 09:46:24 so what is left for bitcoin if not NGU and capped supply? 09:46:25 <123bob123:matrix.org> Making people spend money 09:46:29 its terribly slow, its terribly expensive, its terribly traceable 09:48:44 1. Terribly slow -> Lightning and other solutions are being built for this. We can also take good features XMR has like dynamic block sizing and integrate it into BTC when the issue arises. BTC does not update anything if the chain works fine. We update when necessary. 09:48:45 2. Terribly expensive -> Yes, this is an issue when the chain is busy, but lightning addresses this. 09:48:45 3. Traceable -> Satoshi offered a solution to this. Use a new address for each transaction. We also have coinjoin and taproot. 09:49:14 Dynamic block sizing doesn't work without tail emission, few people know this 09:49:16 have fun with blocksize war #2 09:49:35 you need tail emission to penalize miners who make blocks too big 09:49:51 good luck pushing tail emission in btc :D 09:49:58 lightning doesnt work in a high fee environment either 09:50:07 ive seen people loose upwards of $65 when their channels were force-closed 09:50:11 lightning doesn't work in general 09:50:18 micro-payments my ass 09:50:20 it's an unsolved problem in computer science 09:50:24 <123bob123:matrix.org> At least people arent whinging on reddit why my transactions taking 4 eva 09:50:38 Evidence? 09:50:45 bruh 09:50:56 Evidence for what? Lightning? 09:50:58 I understand lightning has issues but saying it just doesn't work is ridiculous. It is still evolving. 09:51:11 maybe the fact that nearly everyone uses custodial lightning 09:51:18 And the my concerns for XMR haven't been answered properly yet. 09:51:22 And my concerns for XMR haven't been answered properly yet. 09:51:51 Like XMR and vulnerable remote nodes? 09:51:58 what 09:52:08 <123bob123:matrix.org> ¿ 09:52:13 all the nodes can do is lie to you about high fees and somewhat spy on you 09:52:20 Both coins have issues, but XMR has bigger ones. Syncing a whole blockchain that takes hours 09:52:31 <123bob123:matrix.org> Run your own node guys! 09:52:35 syncing bitcoin also takes hours? 09:52:38 Finding a path in a graph when any edge in that graph can change at any moment is an unsolved problem 09:52:48 Sorry I should have phrased it better. XMR has wallets like MyMonero that you have to share your viewkey with. Not vulnerable remote nodes, but it is still kinda custodial 09:52:48 <123bob123:matrix.org> Days 09:52:51 especially when each node of that graph is not aware of the full graph 09:53:03 this is being addressed 09:53:07 it's an unsolved problem in computer science, and some think it's unsolvable in principle 09:53:30 it is solvable in some specific cases, but not in general 09:53:39 specific cases being certain types of graphs 09:53:51 like big centralized "hub" nodes - then lightning will work 09:54:01 with seraphis youll have view-keys that can "pre-sort" transactions which only partially impacts privacy compared to the full decrypt you currently have with viewkeys 09:54:02 but what's the point if it becomes centralized with a few "bank" nodes in it 09:54:23 id recommend jbermans monerokon 2023 talk 09:54:50 <123bob123:matrix.org> If your concerns were resolved you are going to switch? 09:55:17 <123bob123:matrix.org> Or we going in Post Malone 09:55:51 never. you can only trust the math in some places, you cant trust the math to audit the supply though! 09:56:01 Not switch but I was going to share XMR with my community of old heads. Many of us know about XMR but no one in my community have done research except me and I want to make them open to this coin, but I can't get myself to with these major issues. 09:56:29 and i see these as major issues and your solutions laughable 09:56:43 From what I have seen, Seraphis and jamtis or whatever it is called has barely made any progress 09:56:52 Fungibility is a major risk. I don't want my business investigated or funds frozen if a customer is shady and sends me something tainted 09:57:00 i could say the same about lightning 09:57:25 Lightning has progress you can see and test 09:57:31 <123bob123:matrix.org> Point 2 is a major issue for btc, not xmr. Prs are only merged by core. Code is made pushed by devs by community funded devs 09:57:39 all exchanges that got hacked https://defillama.com/hacks 09:58:20 "Lightning has progress" when it was first released? How many years ago? I don't doubt it works right now, but it's fundamentally unreliable for reasons I mentioned above 09:58:43 It will either degrade to a few big nodes and everyone connecting to them, or it will degrade to a not working state 09:58:58 I already answered the solution for this point. There is zero incentive for the core to push poison code because all of the grants, supports and close monitoring by external organizations. All identities are also public and if bad code was pushed, these developers would get into trouble. 09:59:00 it boils down to this: all of moneros issues can and will be fixed with time. bitcoin has some fundamental issues that need to be addressed, otherwise the chain is doomed to fail. monero is open to change, bitcoin has a cult that is against any and all change. good luck. 09:59:31 XMR devs are either frauds like fluffypony, lose funds from the CCS mysteriously and engage in suspicious activity in general 09:59:42 fluffy is not even a dev, stop this bullshit 09:59:57 MyMonero counts 09:59:59 <123bob123:matrix.org> So public devs cannot be co opted? 10:00:12 mymonero is what wallet of satoshi is to bitcoin 10:00:21 but the people actually still hold their own keys 10:00:21 We are not against change. We are against changing when the chain is working. When are close to an issue, we address it. 10:00:32 i want to see that 10:00:39 define "working" 10:00:51 Literally ignoring all the efforts with taproot, etc. 10:00:55 <123bob123:matrix.org> Yep Post Malone “circles” 10:00:56 because last time there was an issue BCH was created and BTC didnt change 10:00:59 all I see in BTC is always full mempool and super high fees 10:02:09 taproot just enabled ordinals, its not even used for atomic swaps because they stand out so much lol 10:02:21 (taproot transactions) 10:02:38 also, even if lightning somehow starts working (via centralization) and everyone moves there, who will pay miners then? After a few halvings? Everyone on lightning, no fees on layer 0 10:02:40 Lightning??? 10:02:48 <123bob123:matrix.org> Lol 10:02:59 lightning doesnt work 10:03:03 ^ 10:03:12 <123bob123:matrix.org> Why have a blockchain, if you can bypass it 10:04:00 <123bob123:matrix.org> Isnt it meant to be a transparent ledger? Why bypass it for “secure” tx? 10:04:04 Having an extra layer is a non-issue 10:04:27 <123bob123:matrix.org> So whats the cost when you close the channel? 10:04:27 XMR also was considering layers with payment channels like PayMo 10:04:37 https://twitter.com/CoinCards/status/1763692052456391075 10:04:42 Etherum has had success with layers and even though I despise that coin it works well 10:04:45 Lightning 1.6%, pathetic 10:05:26 If it really worked, everyone would be using it by now 10:05:28 Yes, Bitcoin is liquid enough people can buy items directly without jumping hoops with giftcards 10:05:32 <123bob123:matrix.org> Do you like btc ETFs? 10:06:30 and XMR is stable in top 3 in those CoinCards posts, a few times it was #1 10:06:55 and these are no "bad bad darknet" purchases 10:07:42 <123bob123:matrix.org> Also is foundary still mining? 10:07:56 <123bob123:matrix.org> https://miningpoolstats.stream/bitcoin 10:07:56 <123bob123:matrix.org> Yep 10:08:28 <123bob123:matrix.org> Doesnt blackrock own them? 10:09:43 I don't mind institutional adoption as long as these people do not threaten decentralization. Institutions are smart and Hal Finney recognized their potential back in 2009 10:09:51 we have people explore different concepts 10:10:07 XMR has not solved this issue either: 10:10:07 https://miningpoolstats.stream/monero 10:10:08