00:01:18 https://xmrchain.net/block/3095589 00:01:36 I havent actually taken 30 seconds to see if there was flooding before this 00:02:09 I watches live as these consolidations filled the pool, before the spam started. This block and the 3-4 that follow appear to be the setup 00:02:32 Noticed cuz the consolidations dont appear to be p2pool 00:04:38 March 1st, no? 00:15:33 which parameters i should use to run full node? 00:15:56 i saw them somewhere today on reddit 00:16:00 but i can't find them now 00:16:15 i mean i know how to run a node, just there was some specific parameters like --enable-dns-blocklist 00:16:33 what is the reason for all the congestion 00:16:58 people are using monero more 00:17:14 up your fees 00:17:47 <123bob123:matrix.org> Tight asses! 00:44:37 Scalability expert Francisco Cabanas aka ArticMine discusses how #XMR is handling the sky rocketing daily transaction count! Join us TMRW morning at 11AM-EST/5PM-CET + Price 📈 , News🗞️ & MORE! 00:44:37 👀➡️: streamyard.com/citqh8r3up 00:44:38 Join ➡️: https://www.youtube.com/live/UeUGiSreegs?si=6EtFL6ePufwk8INy 00:44:38 🙏🏽 00:44:39 🎢@cakewallet @monerocom 00:44:39 🎢@LocalMoneroCo 00:52:10 Why matrix? 00:55:47 to turn humans.... into this.... 00:55:50 battery.jpg 00:56:33 🔋 01:00:58 It turns the battery of my laptop into this: 💩 01:01:13 irc could run on a potato 01:21:37 incognito 01:22:11 why 01:22:22 expect volume to be high for the next few days 01:36:18 incognito officially exit scammed 3 days ago, but withdrawals closed 6 days ago which is when xmr started to see an influx of txs. incgonito didn't use sub addresses for user deposits, so they couldn't sweep their txs, but needed to withdraw for every individual address they have. incognito didn't publish their official user count, although as the market was one of the biggest at 01:36:18 the time we can estimate its user count to be similar to other darknet marketplaces like white house, which had 400k users 01:39:22 txs are not close to 400k yet 04:05:33 https://simplifiedprivacy.com/monero-attack-nostr/ 04:16:35 bizarre 04:17:23 it's not this idiot 04:17:34 he came up with that idea around last year and did nothing 04:31:16 spackle_xmr: i wanted to document the penalty system to add [getmonero.dev](https://github.com/MAGICGrants/getmonero.dev/issues/10) then send to [txstreet](https://github.com/txstreet/processor/issues/2) 04:31:51 anyone got a brief summary of why the spam flood is that big of a deal? Seems kinda like a nothing burger to me 04:32:21 it's not a big deal 04:32:28 nothing goes on here so it's exciting 04:34:46 Imagine being such a shitcoiner that you seriously need to attack actual freedom money in order to pump your pseudo-stock. The absolute state of Bitcoin. 04:34:47 as long as the long term median part of the dynamic algorithm works as I understood it, then eventually this guy will reach a ceiling for the next 69 days or so. So seems like a quick way to burn some money 04:35:39 People are worried about decreases in effective ring-size, which is fair. But even with ring size one Monero via confidential amounts offers better privacy than Bitcoin. 04:36:25 I mean it's sad to see him put the mental bandwidth into attacking Monero, but at the same time it's better for him to do it than a government haha. 04:36:34 As feds are probably even smarter than he is. 04:36:41 Awesome! Is there anything I can help with? 04:36:41 FYI here is the simulation I wrote (no guarantee of correctness, but to the best of my knowledge is it a very good representation): https://github.com/spackle-xmr/Dynamic_Block_Demo 04:36:49 He is like a goomba, he isn't a final boss like Bowser 04:38:04 look up the github issues i linked. 04:39:15 True, and I know we can't exactly be choosing when attacks happen, but it would have been reaaaally nice if this started post-Seraphis so we would have better wallet infrastructure and a larger anon set. Monero is resilient, but honestly I'd like to see it develop a bit more before taking on serious attacks. Then, bring it on. 04:39:36 I also want to hear what you guys think about this hypothetical game theory during a majority hash attack. If a government controls majority hashrate for a meaningful window of time, and they mine zero transactions, then honest users can simply increase the fees they pay to incentivize more normies or submarginal CPU's sitting on the sideline to direct their hashrate to a "black-m 04:39:36 arket" pool. So it's at least theoretically possible for transactions to get pushed through during such an attack, so long as fees they pay are high enough to draw in new honest hash rate 04:40:42 "If a government controls majority hashrate for a meaningful window of time" < zephyr? 04:40:58 Theyve had 3+ gh recently 04:41:03 who cares about that coin lol 04:41:14 Wheres the hr come from :) 04:41:40 that is fair point I guess. But why would they mine a scam coin and not compete in Monero? 04:42:06 I guess it's less competitive there in terms of other pools so they mine there. 04:42:21 Also was cool to see Sarang return in the research lab. He is one of the GOATs 04:42:27 It at times 4x more profitable 04:42:33 I thought we may not see him again haha 04:42:46 Makes 4x more sense to mine zephy and buy xmr, than to mine xmr and sell xmr 04:43:05 Nobody leaves 04:43:39 Interpol thought they could take fluffy. Binance though they could take our price floor 04:43:41 so wouldn't it be smart for people mining Monero to mine zephyr then dump it for monero. then dump monero for fiat if they want or need to. or they could hold on to the nice dark monero coin 04:43:55 yep 04:44:05 that's already happening 04:44:14 Moneroocean, c3pool and others were a nice help during delisting 04:44:16 the reason why zeph hashrate is high is because miners are precisely doing this 04:44:18 ofrnxmr you reply way faster on here than on simplex lol 04:44:43 Is zephyr merge mined with Monero, or totally independent> 04:44:45 I wish 04:44:46 ?* 04:44:50 Independent 04:44:54 fuck it feels good to be back on IRC after so long haha. Back with the boys and (a few ladies) haha 04:45:11 Im actually very slow to reply everywhere now cuz im running like 6 messengers to stay connected 04:45:18 I'll take a swing at this tomorrow. Lazy thing would be to fill the buses to the penalty median (still wrong, buy way less wrong). Correct thing would be to perform the same calculation the miners do, weighing fees against the penalty. 04:45:35 why would they mine zero txs when they can commit a 51% attack? 04:45:41 ty spackle 04:45:49 because the point is to censor the network 04:46:16 they try to get us to lower moneros hr. But at 4x, ill just mine with my dormant devices 04:47:13 switch xmr to PoS and we can fix the problem /s 04:47:16 that is Monero's and bitcoin's highest theoretical threat. If we assume no bugs and janky exploits then the government wins by strongarming the network with hashrate. all crypto's are vulnerable to this. BUt if censored parties pay high fees then it can incentivize new honest hashrate to direct toward a "good" pool. Not the stupid government pool 04:47:54 this is all hypothetical but the US gov will probably do this to Monero at some stage. It could take another 5 to 10 years first though. They gotta finish co-opting bitcoin first. 04:48:13 I think quantum is a bigger threat 04:48:28 i think its going to be funny the attacks become more and mor obvious 04:48:36 one day all of the cryptography xmr used will be outdated 04:48:48 every single tx that's private now will be cracked in the future 04:48:50 If "my" government ever admits to wasting my taxes, im super running for office 04:49:05 yes but that is an external factor. If we hold the axiom of private and pub key security, then within the system majority hash is the main point of attack for big bad us gov 04:49:15 Fl000d, isnt that "story of btc" 04:49:22 Not really. Also this "one day" might take several decades or eons. I'm not bought into the quantum hype 04:49:23 Ppl thought it was private 04:49:44 no one ever thought btc was private 04:49:45 yes they did 04:49:55 yes they did 04:50:00 people thought it was psuedonanon 04:50:01 no lol 04:50:01 read old darknet logs 04:50:15 they did, it was even advertised as anonymous for a short time 04:50:15 people thought it was psuedonanon and it is 04:50:18 flood, might be right, but Monero is so useful now and is a good tool for high threat model scenarios that it's still worth using. 04:50:38 ok maybe some idiots did think that 04:51:03 but one of satoshi's post on bitcointalk had criticisms for privacy 04:51:11 Satoshi removed word anonymous to be removed from the blogpsot because it sounded shady and he didnt want to portray it as so 04:51:16 the drug guys on the dark net are pretty stupid. You get to see the whole IQ spectrum on there when you go on dread lol. There are a few big brains. Most medium brains. and some brainlets 04:51:22 it's why he considered ring signatures 04:51:26 But that users who wanted anonymity would be able to figure it out themselves 04:51:42 then monero was born 04:51:48 Btw the mempool dipped down to 1400 for a short while. Now climbing back up past 1700. 04:52:00 I thought it was over for a second :( 04:52:01 and cmon 04:52:08 In 2009, http was private 04:52:19 so basically this guy who is flooding the network is just gonna burn money and bloat the chain a little bit, but eventually he won't be able to expand the size anymore and his efforts will be in vain right? Because he doesn't understand the long term median right 04:52:26 2012 apple made encryption ok 04:52:32 2014 monero was born 04:52:38 Only one way to see 04:52:39 it will only get more expensive to attack 04:52:49 For at least 3 yrs, bitcoin was one of the most anonymous internet tools 04:52:51 Yes, that was my point. 04:52:55 nothing will happen. the worst outcome from this "attack" is waiting longer for txs to confirmed 04:52:58 are you sure? Doesn't the fee decrease with volume? 04:53:06 No 04:53:08 nothing will happen. the worst outcome from this "attack" is waiting longer for txs to confirm 04:53:15 Not unless we made a new median 04:53:16 Seems like this guy is just burning money and taking up some disk space on everyone's nodes. That's pretty much the scope of the attack. 04:53:24 so far the flood has barely touched the short term median, never mind the long term median. Things will have to continue ramping significantly before that comes into play 04:53:39 And we arent likely to anytime soob as long as their spam takes less time to purge than it does to confirm 04:53:55 haven't you guys seen what happens to btc during peak times? 04:53:58 Fees only adjust after the long term median increases. No matter what happens, there will be no fee changes for the next ~70 days. 04:54:03 and eth? literally fees go over $50 and people still use that shit 04:54:07 xmr is fine 04:54:33 If were apples to apples, yeah were fine 04:54:35 Yeah as long as Artic mine's long term median is lurking to halt the expansion size I'm not worried. I think the dynamic block algo as it stands is pretty good. Maybe it could be better, but im not smart enough to criticize. 04:54:56 imo fees should be 10x higher 04:55:06 But were xmr, were better than these ppl who get spammed and act like nothing is happenibng while their blockchain grows 200gb in a month (zec, #xaggeration) 04:55:06 what do you guys think of the cost of this attack? ~$2600 per gb 04:55:07 or 5x 04:55:32 Selsta - one thing notices is fees appear to be 4x now, not 5x 04:55:40 At least double 04:55:40 can price and fees be interchangeable? 04:55:41 but we want to avoid issues with sharp price rises 04:55:43 Do you know if this is intentional? 04:55:46 so if price was 10x, it would solve the problem? 04:55:52 ofrnxmr: i don't know 04:55:58 Ok 04:56:11 why do you think this? Do you have faith in the long term median, or are you simply saying you think fees should jump steeper during short-term transaction spikes 04:56:27 might be related to the 2021 fee changes 04:56:56 the zcash spam was insane, some wallets were broken for like a year 04:57:22 ztrash moment 04:57:33 Yea. And they had been paid hundreds of thousands to make the wallets lolz 04:58:07 where can I find an explanation for how the dynamic block works? 04:58:27 a more technical one 04:58:30 articmines github repo has the paper iirc 04:58:31 https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ArticMine/Monero-Documents/master/MoneroScaling2021-02.pdf I think this is it? 04:58:43 Thanks blurtgpt 04:58:54 Massively agree with selsta on fees. In my opinion the consequences to ring signatures become significant far before blockchain bloat or user convenience. 04:58:54 ty 04:59:19 It's in zero to monero somewhere. I wish the algo's were explained in layman's terms better though. But basically I think the absolute max growth is 1.4 times current block-size for each window of 69 days. 04:59:33 *1.7 04:59:35 how many txs would lessen ring signature security? 04:59:36 pretty sure 04:59:41 I feel like you would need millions? 04:59:52 i agree, but only that auto should be the mininum and should auto bump to 5 or 10x, not allowing non-standard fees 05:00:00 That is a hairy question if I've ever seen one. Decoy selection is complicated. 05:00:02 144k tx 05:00:10 what negative consequences of ring signatures are you worried about? 05:00:28 About 800/day 05:00:32 Dollars 05:00:49 what is the base block size? 300kb? 05:00:54 yes 05:00:56 effective ring size 05:00:58 https://matrix.to/#/!toFcRZtpaiwiyapgVO:matrix.org/$jf_0IXuYuWWzkmQmpYv0L8mqFqJlA0BfXy_qG2gha6Q?via=matrix.org&via=monero.social&via=cypherstack.com 05:01:07 yes 05:01:18 hm 05:01:29 1.7 every 69 days seems small 05:01:36 Want a layman's explanation? I can give it a quick try... 05:01:43 The scaling algorithm isn't so bad if you spend some time with it. Put simply, it works by measuring two things (short term median, long term median), and calculating two things (penalty median, fee median). 05:01:51 what about this? https://localmonero.co/knowledge/dynamic-block-size?language=en 05:02:16 It does? The increase is exponential. 05:02:20 1.7^x 05:02:33 where x is the number of adjustments 05:02:34 oh lmao 05:02:34 yeah, but if that compounds over time it's pretty generous 05:02:37 I thought it was linear 05:02:42 yeah 1.7 is aggressive if anything 05:03:13 what are adjustments? 05:03:48 I think a permanently fixed block size is definitely bad, and that a dynamic block algorithm is an elegant solution so long as there is some sort of firmish ceiling as a sanity barrier 05:03:55 I think criticisms of the scaling algo are fair, but let me be practical for a moment: It has worked so far, and has hard limits for what can happen in the short term. Monero has bigger priorities than changing the scaling, and it is my hope that people can focus on Seraphis/JAMTIS/FCMP 05:04:26 fixed is obviously bad. btc is a good example on why 05:04:42 Yeah I'm not too worried about the dynamic algo, but these guys might be right that fees should jump more during short-term jumps. I'm not that smart 05:04:55 I am describing it as adjustments to the median in step changes, which is not 100% realisitic but paints the correct picture for the maximum of what can happen. 05:05:20 I ant find it now, but I swear there was talks about going from 1.7 -> 1.4 for the August 2022 upgrade. I dont know if that went through tho 05:05:20 The long term median is of 100k blocks, so if a flood keeps hitting the ceiling on it the median will step up every 50k blocks 05:05:22 50k blocks is ~70 days 05:05:27 Yeah it's funny there was a post by deathandtaxes on the bitcointalk forum and he basically unveiled how such a small block size would lead to onchain usage getting captured 05:05:37 make sure to tune in to monerotopia tomorrow 05:05:41 Articmine will be on 05:05:47 ooh 05:05:52 it was an excellent post and changed my mind from small blocker to big blocker again haha 05:06:10 do you have a link? 05:06:17 let me find it 05:06:56 Quick fact about Monero scaling: No matter what happens, there is a block size limit of 30 MB for the next 70 days. 05:07:07 basically he predicted how btc develop of offchain scaling is stupid if it is cost-prohibitive for individuals to interact transact on the base layer 05:07:12 Things can ramp from there, but it isn't like the scaling algo will explode in a few weeks. 05:07:33 thanks spackle, I'm happy to hear that 05:07:59 I mean... that's 7.9tb annualized. Not very comforting 05:08:09 so after 70 days, then the new limit is 30 MB x 1.7 correct? for another 70 days 05:08:21 So if you are worried by what you are seeing on chain (and you shouldn't be, the scaling algo has barely been touched.), know that there is time to adjust. 05:08:24 yes 05:08:36 yeah but what are the chances that blocks are actually full for an entire year lol 05:08:44 30 MB blocks would only be created if enough fees are paid to completely overwhelm the penalty. 05:08:45 where does the exponential growth come in? 05:08:52 so what are the chances of the chain growing terabytes in a single year 05:08:53 That is effectively not going to happen. 05:08:58 pretty low in all honesty 05:09:27 After another 70 days you get 1.7 times the higher number. 1.7^2 from the start 05:09:33 after another 70 days.... 1.7^3 05:09:35 and so on 05:09:36 yeah, but I'm just saying 30mb = no effective limit. If we reach that unexpectedly, we have very big problems. 05:09:40 ahhh 05:09:52 no effective long term limit* 05:09:53 in my opinion, no we do not. 05:09:58 that is my opinion 05:10:05 If we reach that quickly? 05:10:13 what is the block size limit on BCH? 05:10:30 well, trick question. I know they are moving to dynamic scaling as well. 05:10:34 32mb per 1 minutes. 30mb on Monero = 150 per 10 minutes. BSV territory 05:10:44 I think they impl something dynamic 05:10:48 Ah. Trick q 05:11:03 above bsv 05:11:06 The fastest we could hit 30 MB blocks is 12 hours. It would require massive fees being paid, but it is possible and I think people should prepare for that. 05:11:09